How much have we really spent? - And what does it mean?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Bad Bob » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:20 pm

Okay, I've seen different numbers bandied about from different sources with different "spin" about what it means.  Some have us as spending more than the Mancs under Rafa while others suggest we're well off the pace in our spending.  Some say we need to focus on net spend, while some contend that gross spend is a valid measure.  And, of course, everyone is using the spending figures--that is, the spending figures they find credible--to pass judgment on our progress under Rafa.  My sense is that all this information is kicking about in various threads so I thought it might be valuable to have one thread, where we might get to the bottom of how much we've spent under Rafa, relative to our chief rivals, and what that might mean when it comes to judging our progress.

To get the debate started, since I'm not up on all the nuances of our spending myself, I thought I'd bring in everyone's favourite pundit, Paul Tompkins, to chum the waters of debate as it were. :D


----
TOMKINS: END SHOCKING TRANSFER MYTH
Paul Tomkins 04 March 2009

Okay, it must end NOW! I've reached breaking point. The shocking transfer myth must be put to rest, once and for all.
paul tomkins

I've tried in the past, but the media misinformation continues to gather pace like some ill-founded rumour. It's dangerous, because it causes unjust criticism.

Let's make one thing clear: Liverpool have nowhere near the most expensive squad in the Premiership.

No. Where. Near.

Indeed, there are three clubs who have spent at least 50 per cent more on their current squad than Liverpool.

Shocked? Well, you should be if you believe what's spouted out on TV. But it's true. And one of the clubs is not a name you'd necessarily expect.

It doesn't help that some people – such as Jamie Redknapp last night – focus on Rafa's gross spend, rather than the net amount. Effectively, this means counting all the right-backs he's bought as one big outlay, rather than looking at how he's replaced one with another for roughly the same £2m fee.

Working with just the gross spend, you add the £2m of Josemi to the £2m value of Kromkamp (even though it was a swap), to the £2.6m paid for Arbeloa. But none of these players were at the club at the same time, and each was traded to get to the point where an outright success was secured, as happened with the final purchase.

So even though the total cost of getting Arbeloa was just the £2.6m paid, people will use a figure almost three times as high. That is illogical.

(Another note, Jamie: Liverpool have three right-backs on the books, not just one; but the promising Darby, like Arbeloa, was injured and Degen has had a first season ruined by various ailments. So it's wrong to criticise the manager for an unbalanced squad and playing a midfielder out of position when three right-backs are unavailable.)

It's like the housing market: you don't just go in and buy a mansion straight from school. (Okay, so maybe some footballers do, but not the normal people of this world. As someone stuck with renting, I'm speaking generally here!)

You start with an affordable house; you then use the money from selling that to buy your next property. Most people can only get to own a big house having traded their way up over a number of years.

Yet when someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you?

If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic.

According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped.

(I'd hazard a guess that a large proportion of the £108m net spend has also been recouped through Champions League progress rewards, particularly with the Reds being the top-ranked team based on his five-year tenure.)

So it's easy to pluck a figure of '£195m' from the air, live on air, and make it seem like that should make a team champions, or ultra-close challengers.

But it's only the cost of the current squad that counts. Because that's all a manager can choose from; he can't go back in time and select a player he sold in order to trade up, just as you can't just turn up to one of your old houses and let yourself in.

You simply cannot add Rafa having spent £5.8m on Sissoko to the £18m on Mascherano, because the two were never part of the same set-up; one was bought and sold for a profit, and as with a house, the money reinvested in a step-up. If Sissoko isn't bought and then sold, Mascherano probably doesn't arrive.

Is that really too tough to grasp?

From my own experience in writing 'Dynasty', I can attest that researching transfer fees is never easy, given the amount of undisclosed fees and various add-ons (for various things, like appearances, trophies won, national caps and the cultivation of unexpectedly daring hairstyles).

But taking each fee as the most a club has expect to pay when add-ons are activated, I've calculated the cost of the most expensive squads in the league, and listed them below.

(Note: while it's impossible to be 100 per cent accurate with the figures in the public domain, I'd say that overall it's at least 95 per cent of the true amount, and with rival teams I've actually been generous and excluded a couple of players whose cost just isn't listed anywhere I could find.)

The most expensive squads (excluding players out on long-term loan) are as follows:

Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m*
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m
Liverpool £127m

(*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99.9 of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)

So what does this tell us?

Let's start with the leaders. United's squad contains the most home-grown players, such as Giggs, Scholes, Neville, O'Shea, Brown and Fletcher, who all arrived for free.

So that shows that it is a long-established core supplemented by a lot of expensive signings added one by one to a unified collection. In other words, classic, spot-on building of a squad when already established at the very top.

But it shows that even if you work with the unfair use of Rafa's gross spend, it still doesn't match what Ferguson has spent on his current squad, let alone those who have been bought and sold for record fees in the past.

And this is utterly, utterly critical, and beyond the grasp of some people who cannot analyse things with common sense.

After all, what does it matter how much Rafa has spent since 2004 if Ferguson is currently fielding players like Ferdinand (£30m) and Ronaldo (£12.8m) who were bought before then?

Isn't Rafa – in the real world – competing with a team whose construction started well before he arrived?

Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.

After all, how much as Harry Redknapp spent since he took over at Spurs? I make it almost £50m. How much has Rafa spent since Harry Redknapp took over at Spurs? Nothing. But only a nutter would compare the two in this deeply skewed way.

Rafa has been in his job about five times as long as Harry, so you obviously wouldn't dare compare their teams. And yet Ferguson has been in his job about five times as long as Rafa, and yet the Spaniard is expected to have Liverpool as champions by now.

Chelsea and Spurs are actually the more interesting examples in many ways. I knew Spurs had spent a lot, but to have a current squad that cost almost £200m shocked me. Add together the cost of Bentley, Pavyluchenko, Palacios, Bale, Defoe, Bent, Keane and Modric and you more-or-less end up with the cost of Liverpool's entire squad.

I could be sarcastic – or media-style sensationalistic – and say that with that much spent, any manager should be able to win almost all of his matches, but it wouldn't be fair or logical. It's far more complex than that, and even a good manager like Redknapp has his work cut out.

Chelsea and Spurs have had seven managers between them since 2007. This means different men making expensive signings and ending up with a mixed squad. Based on expenditure, both of these clubs are massively underachieving this season. Almost certainly to blame for that is the hierarchy having itchy fingers when it comes to firing managers.

Of course, this analysis doesn't include wages, either. You don't get the very top players in the world without also having to pay them a king's ransom. Michael Ballack must be most expensive free transfer ever, with wages reported to be around £130,000 a week, or about £30m over five years. Again, Liverpool are no way near the highest payers, either.

So there you have it. By all means print it out and pass it around; 'pass it on', as the saying goes, including to those in the media who could do with reading it. By all means quibble over some of the finer details, as there is a tolerance of a few percent on the accuracy of the figures, but the overall gist is very much sound and robust.

Note: as all good schoolteachers tell you to do, my workings are there to see, and will be available to view on my website.

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Postby Ciggy » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:24 pm

Good piece that for a change saying it as it is, I know for certain we havent spent all sorts on players like the media would have you believe.
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Postby GYBS » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:32 pm

For a change from Tomkins that is a very interesting and good article and certainly views things in a different light when it comes to the relative spending of each one of the clubs.
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:32 pm

what is the cost of our first team squad compared to other first team squads, i.e what did we pay per player and what is the value of players already here, players sold is not relevant, what is relevant is if our first team squad is valued at higher than say the stoke squad. lets say torres was 20 million, lets say gerrard is worth 30 million, mash 17 million, kuyt 11 million, theres 78 million on 4 players, i would imagine thats more than the whole stoke squad.

net spend is not important, what is important is the value of the players on the pitch, the value of the current squad
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Postby GYBS » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:35 pm

Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m*
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m
Liverpool £127m

From that and suggestions about money on here or should i say money spent , we should be getting beaten by the above teams surely ?

Off course the figures prob dont include gerrard and carra for us but also dont include the likes of scholes giggs etc and terry .
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Postby LegBarnes » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:59 pm

all that matters to me is rafa has had x amount of money to spend and bought x amount of sh.it players thats all that matters to me.
Last edited by LegBarnes on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tubby » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:08 pm

LegBarnes wrote:all that matters to me is rafa has had x amount of money to spend and bought x amount of sh.it players thats all that matters to me.

Did you even read that article?

Fergie is able to splash 20Mil on 1 player where as Rafa has to spend it on a few different positions.

Good find BadBob. About time someone set everyone straight. I think some people were actually starting to believe we had spent as much as Utd overall but this was never going to be the case in reality.

The reality of it all is that we are competing against big spenders on small budget and doing ok.
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Postby GYBS » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:15 pm

Wonder what the comparatives are when it comes to the first 11/13 players

Liverpool

Pepe - 6 mil
Arbeloa - 2.6 mil
Carra - Free (but worth 10 mil imo)
Skrtel -6 mil
Aurelio - Free (around 3 mil i guess with wages)

Kuyt 9-10 mil
Masher - 17 mil
Xabi - 10 mil
Reira - 4 mil ? cant remember exact price

Gerrard - Free (30 plus mil worth)
Torres - 21 mil

Yossi - 5 mil
Babel - 10 mil
Lucas - 6 mil
Dossena - 7 mil
Ngog - 1.5 mil
Agger - 5 mil

Man Utd

Van De Sar - 1 mil
Neville - Free (say 5 mil)
Jar Jar Binks - 30 mil
Evra - 6 mil

Ronaldo - 12.5 mil
Hargreaves - 20 mil
Carrick - 20 mil
Anderson - 18 mil
Nani - 18 mil
Scholes - Free (10 mil)
Giggs - Free ( 10 mil)
Fletcher - free (5 mil)
Park - 6 mil

Berbatov - 30 mil
Tevez - 30 mil ?
Rooney - 30 mil

Oshea - Free (5 mil)
Brown - free (5 Mil)
Evans Free (5 mil)
Rafeal - 5 mil ?


Chelsea

Cech - 8 mil

Boswinga - 17 mil
Carvahlo - 20 mil
Terry - Free (20 mil)
Cole - 10 mil
Alex - Free (10 mil)
Ferrira - 13 mil
Belleti - 7 mil

Lampard - 10 mil
Essien - 23 mil
Ballack - Free (20 plus mil )
Mikel - 10 mil
Maluoda - 13 mil
Kalou - 7 mil
Cole - 10 mil

Drogba - 20 mil
Anelka - 15 mil


Off course the figures arent acurate and the guys who came through the ranks i put fees i would expect them to sell for the the guys bought on frees i put wages plus the sort of fee you would expect to pay for someone like that .

The thing that stands out for me and something that was mentioned in other posts elsewhere is the amount of 15 mil plus players Liverpool have got compared to the other two .
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:16 pm

bavlondon wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:all that matters to me is rafa has had x amount of money to spend and bought x amount of sh.it players thats all that matters to me.

Did you even read that article?

Fergie is able to splash 20Mil on 1 player where as Rafa has to spend it on a few different positions.

Good find BadBob. About time someone set everyone straight. I think some people were actually starting to believe we had spent as much as Utd overall but this was never going to be the case in reality.

The reality of it all is that we are competing against big spenders on small budget and doing ok.

Just to be clear, mate, my aim wasn't to set anyone straight nor am I necessarily endorsing Tomkins's analysis.  Rather, I wanted to open things up for a discussion on our spending and what it means.  I've seen a lot of numbers mentioned in a lot of threads in recent months and, if people are willing, I'd like to see them brought in here and held up to scrutiny.  If nothing else, maybe we can sort out a figure for our spending that just about everyone can agree on.  From there, I think the discussion moves to the more philosophical question of what it all means in terms of our league position and sense of progress.
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Postby LegBarnes » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:18 pm

bavlondon wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:all that matters to me is rafa has had x amount of money to spend and bought x amount of sh.it players thats all that matters to me.

Did you even read that article?

Fergie is able to splash 20Mil on 1 player where as Rafa has to spend it on a few different positions.

Good find BadBob. About time someone set everyone straight. I think some people were actually starting to believe we had spent as much as Utd overall but this was never going to be the case in reality.

The reality of it all is that we are competing against big spenders on small budget and doing ok.

thats thing tho bav rafa could have done that at start of each season he has had close to 30-40 mil to spend apart from this season and instead of offing players he didn't like he could have kept them at club cos they all wasn't aweful players ffs we managed to win CL with most of them.

Then he could have brought in 1-2 top signings each season by now we would have had 8 top players instead of maybe 4-5 and been a better first team for it.
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Postby LegBarnes » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:22 pm

GYBS wrote:Wonder what the comparatives are when it comes to the first 11/13 players

Liverpool

Pepe - 6 mil
Arbeloa - 2.6 mil
Carra - Free (but worth 10 mil imo)
Skrtel -6 mil
Aurelio - Free (around 3 mil i guess with wages)

Kuyt 9-10 mil
Masher - 17 mil
Xabi - 10 mil
Reira - 4 mil ? cant remember exact price

Gerrard - Free (30 plus mil worth)
Torres - 21 mil

Yossi - 5 mil
Babel - 10 mil
Lucas - 6 mil
Dossena - 7 mil
Ngog - 1.5 mil
Agger - 5 mil

Man Utd

Van De Sar - 1 mil
Neville - Free (say 5 mil)
Jar Jar Binks - 30 mil
Evra - 6 mil

Ronaldo - 12.5 mil
Hargreaves - 20 mil
Carrick - 20 mil
Anderson - 18 mil
Nani - 18 mil
Scholes - Free (10 mil)
Giggs - Free ( 10 mil)
Fletcher - free (5 mil)
Park - 6 mil

Berbatov - 30 mil
Tevez - 30 mil ?
Rooney - 30 mil

Oshea - Free (5 mil)
Brown - free (5 Mil)
Evans Free (5 mil)
Rafeal - 5 mil ?


Chelsea

Cech - 8 mil

Boswinga - 17 mil
Carvahlo - 20 mil
Terry - Free (20 mil)
Cole - 10 mil
Alex - Free (10 mil)
Ferrira - 13 mil
Belleti - 7 mil

Lampard - 10 mil
Essien - 23 mil
Ballack - Free (20 plus mil )
Mikel - 10 mil
Maluoda - 13 mil
Kalou - 7 mil
Cole - 10 mil

Drogba - 20 mil
Anelka - 15 mil


Off course the figures arent acurate and the guys who came through the ranks i put fees i would expect them to sell for the the guys bought on frees i put wages plus the sort of fee you would expect to pay for someone like that .

The thing that stands out for me and something that was mentioned in other posts elsewhere is the amount of 15 mil plus players Liverpool have got compared to the other two .

you are only showing tho the first team players rafa has signed how much has he spent on the youth team but tbh time will tell if that was good investment.
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Postby GYBS » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:22 pm

How did rafa get 30 - 40 mil each season to spend ? it wasnt pure money from the owners it was from offing players that werent good enough etc . Not many times has the club be able to afford to blow 30 mil straight from the coffers - most of the money used has come from players sold and those players need replacing .
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Postby GYBS » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:24 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
GYBS wrote:Wonder what the comparatives are when it comes to the first 11/13 players

Liverpool

Pepe - 6 mil
Arbeloa - 2.6 mil
Carra - Free (but worth 10 mil imo)
Skrtel -6 mil
Aurelio - Free (around 3 mil i guess with wages)

Kuyt 9-10 mil
Masher - 17 mil
Xabi - 10 mil
Reira - 4 mil ? cant remember exact price

Gerrard - Free (30 plus mil worth)
Torres - 21 mil

Yossi - 5 mil
Babel - 10 mil
Lucas - 6 mil
Dossena - 7 mil
Ngog - 1.5 mil
Agger - 5 mil

Man Utd

Van De Sar - 1 mil
Neville - Free (say 5 mil)
Jar Jar Binks - 30 mil
Evra - 6 mil

Ronaldo - 12.5 mil
Hargreaves - 20 mil
Carrick - 20 mil
Anderson - 18 mil
Nani - 18 mil
Scholes - Free (10 mil)
Giggs - Free ( 10 mil)
Fletcher - free (5 mil)
Park - 6 mil

Berbatov - 30 mil
Tevez - 30 mil ?
Rooney - 30 mil

Oshea - Free (5 mil)
Brown - free (5 Mil)
Evans Free (5 mil)
Rafeal - 5 mil ?


Chelsea

Cech - 8 mil

Boswinga - 17 mil
Carvahlo - 20 mil
Terry - Free (20 mil)
Cole - 10 mil
Alex - Free (10 mil)
Ferrira - 13 mil
Belleti - 7 mil

Lampard - 10 mil
Essien - 23 mil
Ballack - Free (20 plus mil )
Mikel - 10 mil
Maluoda - 13 mil
Kalou - 7 mil
Cole - 10 mil

Drogba - 20 mil
Anelka - 15 mil


Off course the figures arent acurate and the guys who came through the ranks i put fees i would expect them to sell for the the guys bought on frees i put wages plus the sort of fee you would expect to pay for someone like that .

The thing that stands out for me and something that was mentioned in other posts elsewhere is the amount of 15 mil plus players Liverpool have got compared to the other two .

you are only showing tho the first team players rafa has signed how much has he spent on the youth team but tbh time will tell if that was good investment.

read the first line of the post.As i state it is the values of the current FIRST TEAM 11/13ish players .

And if your talking about money spent of youth - Taggert just spent over 20 odd million on two youngsters .
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Postby LegBarnes » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:30 pm

aye yes we know they have money to burn so I more worried about what is going on at our club.

It don't matter what they spend really all that matters is our manager doing the best with what he has and I am for one thinking no but thats me.
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Postby LegBarnes » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:33 pm

GYBS wrote:How did rafa get 30 - 40 mil each season to spend ? it wasnt pure money from the owners it was from offing players that werent good enough etc . Not many times has the club be able to afford to blow 30 mil straight from the coffers - most of the money used has come from players sold and those players need replacing .

aye true he had to sell but it still don't meen he didn't have the funds there to use on bigger targets.

I meen if it was me I would have spent the 40 mil after sales on 2 top players and drafted in the younger players in to fill gaps or done some loan deals.

For a few seasons we might not have done to well but after that I think we would have caught up some what with the mancs and chavs.
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