Liverpool FC Forum

by **aCe'** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:52 pm

maguskwt wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:And lest we forget had Rafa not even taken the Liverpool job i doubt we would have even managed to get players such as Alonso, Reina and Torres.

Why not ?

Top club + money available, even Pulis would have been able to bring in quality players to the side...

Id even go as far as saying that if we had someone whos better in the transfer market we would have had a much better squad than we do now given the money we spent....

so how come during Houllier's reign we were never able to sign world class internationals in the class of alonso, torres and reina? Rafa put Liverpool back on the map in Europe by winning the CL in his first year. This has partly lured players like reina, torres, reira. etc. CL is a huge draw for players and the fact that we almost always do well year in year out just helps that much...

Houllier made some good signings too lets not get too silly here... Also should remember that we werent spending anywhere near as much as we are now on players yet still maintained a good side with quality in many positions...

All credit to Rafa for doing well in the CL and all that, but im sure many players would have come to the side regardless of the manager if we were able to afford them and were interested in them... better than what we have now...

by **maguskwt** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:34 pm

aCe' wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:And lest we forget had Rafa not even taken the Liverpool job i doubt we would have even managed to get players such as Alonso, Reina and Torres.

Why not ?

Top club + money available, even Pulis would have been able to bring in quality players to the side...

Id even go as far as saying that if we had someone whos better in the transfer market we would have had a much better squad than we do now given the money we spent....

so how come during Houllier's reign we were never able to sign world class internationals in the class of alonso, torres and reina? Rafa put Liverpool back on the map in Europe by winning the CL in his first year. This has partly lured players like reina, torres, reira. etc. CL is a huge draw for players and the fact that we almost always do well year in year out just helps that much...

Houllier made some good signings too lets not get too silly here... Also should remember that we werent spending anywhere near as much as we are now on players yet still maintained a good side with quality in many positions...

All credit to Rafa for doing well in the CL and all that, but im sure many players would have come to the side regardless of the manager if we were able to afford them and were interested in them... better than what we have now...

Well who did we sign in the class of Alonso, Torres and Reina?

by **Effes** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:37 pm

Hyypia and Hamman I'd put in that class, Henchoz at a push.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:41 pm

Effes wrote:Hyypia and Hamman I'd put in that class, Henchoz at a push.

Hyppia yes (absolute bargain), Hamann no (one of the best holding midfielders who kept the game simple and effective but the talent level just can't be compared to Alonso's), and Henchoz by a mile no (he formed a formidable partnership with Hyppia but by himself he was never a world class defender).

by **Zidane** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:39 pm

I believe Rafa did put the team back on the big stage whether people might like to admit it or not.. or just don't believe it, we were a big club long ago that was fading into obscurity until we won that CL imho. Not obscurity, that's too strong but we weren't attracting the kind of players we should have been. Hyypia was an exception, everyone can agree to that no? When we signed him no one expected him to become what he was.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:57 pm

To say we wern't attracting the same highly thought of players under Houllier is a load of balls. The FACT that a lot of the players were poor is another matter, but Babbel was one of the best defenders in the world, Diouf was African footballer of the year, Cisse was the highest rated young striker in Europe at the time, Anelka was one of the best players in the world, even Heskey was one of the highest rated young strikers in England, then we had Pongole and LeTallec both rated extremely highly as players for the future.

No, the problem was not that we couldn't attract the best, but we didn't make the right choices of the best. We made too many errors in the transfer market and we paid the price.

by **Effes** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:58 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Effes wrote:Hyypia and Hamman I'd put in that class, Henchoz at a push.

Hyppia yes (absolute bargain), Hamann no (one of the best holding midfielders who kept the game simple and effective but the talent level just can't be compared to Alonso's), and Henchoz by a mile no (he formed a formidable partnership with Hyppia but by himself he was never a world class defender).

Your original question was "Well who did we sign in the class of Alonso, Torres and Reina?"

My answer was that Hamman was in the same class as the ones you quoted; then you start talking about "talent level"

I also said Henchoz, at a push. And you did say that he formed a formidable partnership.
Surely you have to be of a certain class to form such a "formidable" partnership.

And Hyypia we agree on.

So I dont think we are a million miles apart in our humble opinions.

by **GYBS** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:54 pm

devaney wrote:
GYBS wrote:He is just making a joke about my point - i mentioned parry about gerrards contract and it gets dragged down to the normal levels of parry signing players and everything being blamed on parry etc etc blah blah

If you don't think that Benitez was partly responsible for Gerrardgate number two then I feel sorry for you. Parry and Benitez probably didn't persuade Gerrard to stay - his family more than likely did! Rafa's man management skills were there for all to witness after we won the CL. He made Gerrard feel unwanted - Gerrard's words not mine! As for Gerrardgate number one Rafa was there but he was more intent on selling Owen for fk all to Real Madrid! Or was that Parry as well!

there is no facts whatsoever to back up any of that . Read his book where rafa persuaded gerrard to stay first time by telling him that he was the key to rafas plans along with owen and carra but owen decided not to give him a chance , he flew out to meet the guys during the euros , yeah thats poor man management . The second time rafa wanted the club to give him a new contract but the club delayed in giving it to him and thought the club wanted to sell him to raise funds not rafa wanting to sell him and rafa was furious that the club messed him around so once again nothing to do with rafa supposed poor man management . Its obvious your against rafa but lets not blame him for everything to fit your agenda .

by **baldricks_cunning_plan** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:06 am

maguskwt wrote:so how come during Houllier's reign we were never able to sign world class internationals in the class of alonso, torres and reina?

Because during Houllier's time we had Michael Owen. The greatest centre forward on the planet during the early 2000s so we didn't need to fork out a s**t load on somebody as good as Torres. We already had the best.

Because during Houllier's time we had Steven Gerrard. The same Steven Gerrard who was quickly becoming one of the best complete players in world football, has since gone on to become the most complete player in the world. Down to Houllier as much as anybody. So again we didn't need to fork out huge amounts to find somebody as good as Alonso, although in what he did nobody was as good as Didi Hamann not even Xabi.

And simply because Reina is one of very few world class goalkeepers in the last 20 years. The only ones up there with him in that category are Schmichael, Casillas and Van Der Sar in his prime. Also Pepe didn't have an international cap until he moved to Anfield so we didn't sign a world class international when we got him did we?

Any other of your statements you'd like me to disprove?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:36 am

aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:And lest we forget had Rafa not even taken the Liverpool job i doubt we would have even managed to get players such as Alonso, Reina and Torres.

Why not ?

Top club + money available, even Pulis would have been able to bring in quality players to the side...

Id even go as far as saying that if we had someone whos better in the transfer market we would have had a much better squad than we do now given the money we spent....

And that is entirely because you are a simpleton.

by **bigmick** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:41 am

Getting top players to come is a bit like field of dreams where if you build it they will come. In football, nine times out of ten if you pay them, they will come. Man City have by and large got the players they've been going for, and I can't help but think it's not necessarily down to Mark Hughes' magnetic personality nor his impressive record. True Kaka turned them down, but he was a bit of an exception. I'm not sure he'd have come to us either to be perfectly honest.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:44 am

aCe' wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
aCe' wrote:
bavlondon wrote:And lest we forget had Rafa not even taken the Liverpool job i doubt we would have even managed to get players such as Alonso, Reina and Torres.

Why not ?

Top club + money available, even Pulis would have been able to bring in quality players to the side...

Id even go as far as saying that if we had someone whos better in the transfer market we would have had a much better squad than we do now given the money we spent....

so how come during Houllier's reign we were never able to sign world class internationals in the class of alonso, torres and reina? Rafa put Liverpool back on the map in Europe by winning the CL in his first year. This has partly lured players like reina, torres, reira. etc. CL is a huge draw for players and the fact that we almost always do well year in year out just helps that much...

Houllier made some good signings too lets not get too silly here... Also should remember that we werent spending anywhere near as much as we are now on players yet still maintained a good side with quality in many positions...

All credit to Rafa for doing well in the CL and all that, but im sure many players would have come to the side regardless of the manager if we were able to afford them and were interested in them... better than what we have now...

It's not worth a card/ban.

Suffice to say you are totally, utterly and completely wrong.

Not only that, but you are entirely devoid of any footballing knowledge, to the point where I would swear you are a brainless munchkin.

by **baldricks_cunning_plan** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:38 am

bigmick wrote:Getting top players to come is a bit like field of dreams where if you build it they will come. In football, nine times out of ten if you pay them, they will come. Man City have by and large got the players they've been going for, and I can't help but think it's not necessarily down to Mark Hughes' magnetic personality nor his impressive record. True Kaka turned them down, but he was a bit of an exception. I'm not sure he'd have come to us either to be perfectly honest.

I don't see what point you're trying to make mate. Man City have got an open cheque book so they get pretty much who they want, it's hardly a revelation that is it?

We have limited funds, if any at all, so we're going for the second, third maybe even fourth class of player. What are you trying to prove?

by **bigmick** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:53 am

baldricks_cunning_plan wrote:
bigmick wrote:Getting top players to come is a bit like field of dreams where if you build it they will come. In football, nine times out of ten if you pay them, they will come. Man City have by and large got the players they've been going for, and I can't help but think it's not necessarily down to Mark Hughes' magnetic personality nor his impressive record. True Kaka turned them down, but he was a bit of an exception. I'm not sure he'd have come to us either to be perfectly honest.

I don't see what point you're trying to make mate. Man City have got an open cheque book so they get pretty much who they want, it's hardly a revelation that is it?

We have limited funds, if any at all, so we're going for the second, third maybe even fourth class of player. What are you trying to prove?

I'm not sure what the point is either baldy to be honest. I do know this though, it's tricky keeping up with things around here.

Here's how I understand the lie of the land to be right now.

If somebody signs for the club, regardless of the fact they're on a huge contract (Johnson for example), it's because of Rafa, which is fair enough. If on the other hand they decide not to sign for us and to sign for somebody else (like Gareth Barry for example), it's nothing to do with Rafa, it's because they are a greedy b@stard.

If a player decides to stay with us for a while (ie Reina or Agger), it's because of Rafa and the respect the player(s) have for him. If on other hand they decide to leave (Like Owen or Alonso for example), it's nothing to do with Rafa.

If a player such as Gerrard considers leaving, it's nothing to do with Rafa or presumeably the manager he was considering playing for. It's actually Parry's fault. If and when though he changes his mind and decides to stay, that's nothing to do with Parry, that's because of Rafa and the respect the player has for him.

If we go into a Champions League final and are 3-0 down at half time and being completely outplayed, it's nothing to do with the tactics we decided to employ, or Rafa. If though our captain then drags us back into it single handed and we eventually through many twists of fate win, it's because of the tactical genius, of Rafa.

If we play in a Champions League final and leave our best striker on the bench and lose, it's nothing to do with Rafa.

If we win the Champions League with a team which consists of eight or nine players who were left behind by the previous manager, it's all down to Rafa and nothing to do with that previous manager. If that same group of players wins the FA Cup the following season, ditto. If having rebuilt that squad at huge cost, we then win feck all for three seasons, it's nothing to do with Rafa. It's down to Parry, the owners, and bad luck.

If we win a big willy contest with Real Madrid but then suffer at the start of the season as our replacement for our playmaker which we sold (which wasn't anything to do with Rafa) is injured until October, it's not down to Rafa. Similarly, if the pre-season run outs against Cricklewood Wanderers, Heimdalls Harriers and Merthyr Tydfill don't have us sharp enough for the start of the season, it's nothing to do with Rafa.

If we sign a striker for 20 million quid and he scores goals for fun, it's down to Rafa which is absolutely fair enough. Not only is it down to rafa for spotting him, but the only reason the player came is because of Rafa (obviously). If two seasons later we sign another striker for 20 million quid and he can't hit a cows erse with a banjo, it's nothing to do with Rafa. It's down to Parry, because Rafa didn't want him in the first place. The fact we paid 20 million quid for him which was too much was down to Parry (nothing to do with Rafa), but then when we managed to lose only 1 million pounds sterling on the deal when we sold him for 12 million quid, it's down to Rafa (with a bit of help from Jesus presumeably).

I think that's all things covered, but forgive me if I get a bit confused with it all from time to time Baldy

.

by **ConnO'var** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:03 am

bigmick wrote:
baldricks_cunning_plan wrote:
bigmick wrote:Getting top players to come is a bit like field of dreams where if you build it they will come. In football, nine times out of ten if you pay them, they will come. Man City have by and large got the players they've been going for, and I can't help but think it's not necessarily down to Mark Hughes' magnetic personality nor his impressive record. True Kaka turned them down, but he was a bit of an exception. I'm not sure he'd have come to us either to be perfectly honest.

I don't see what point you're trying to make mate. Man City have got an open cheque book so they get pretty much who they want, it's hardly a revelation that is it?

We have limited funds, if any at all, so we're going for the second, third maybe even fourth class of player. What are you trying to prove?

I'm not sure what the point is either baldy to be honest. I do know this though, it's tricky keeping up with things around here.

Here's how I understand the lie of the land to be right now.

If somebody signbs for the club, regardless of the fact they're on a huge contract (Johnson for example), it's because of Rafa, which is fair enough. If on the ohter hand they decide not to sign for us and to sign for somebody else, it's nothing to do with Rafa, it's because they are a greedy b@stard.

If a player decides to stay with us for a while (ie Reina), it's because of Rafa and the respect the player(s) have for him. If on other hand they decide to leave (Like Owen or Alonso for example), it's nothing to do with Rafa.

If a player such as Gerrard considers leaving, it's nothing to do with Rafa or presumeably the manager he was considering playing for. It's actually Parry's fault. If and when though he changes his mind and decides to stay, that's nothing to do with Parry, that's because of Rafa and the respect the player has for him.

If we go into a Champions League final and are 3-0 down at half time and being completely outplayed, it's nothing to do with the tactics or Rafa. If our captain then drags us back into it single handed and we eventually through many twists of fate win, it's because of tactical genius, of Rafa.

If we play in a Champions League final and leave our best striker on the bench and lose, it's nothing to do with Rafa.

If we win the Champions League with a team which consists of eight or nine players who were left behind by the previous manager, it's all down to Rafa. If that same group of players wins the FA Cup the following season, ditto. If having rebuilt that squad at huge cost we then win feck all for three seasons, it's nothing to do with Rafa. It's down to Parry, the owners, and bad luck.

If we win a big willy contest with Real Madrid but then suffer at the start of the season as our replacement for our playmaker is injured until October, it's not down to Rafa. Similarly, if the run outs against Cricklewood Wanderers, Heimdalls Harriers and Merthyr Tydfill don't have us sharp enough for the start of the season, it's nothing to do with Rafa.

I think that's all things covered, but forgive if I get a bit confused withit all from time to time

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