Liverpool FC Forum

[loopyliverpool]

There is a case for saying you get what you pay for and Rafa hasn't been given vast amounts. However, he has, since he's been at the helm, bought quite a few young players for the future (if anybody knows the precise figure it would be grand) and well none of them have emerged anywhere near the first team. Where do they go and what happens while they are here, isnt it about time that one came through? Wenger seems to manage it season on season! Im not knocking Rafa but it seems that his only undoubted successes in the transfer market is when he pays top dollar. At the moment and until we find new, wealthier owners, this obviously can't continue.

[tubby]

It took Fergie 5 years to produce 1 player from his youth that would go onto be a fixture in the first team - Ryan Giggs. We have Insua and this is only Rafas 5th year. Plus he only really has sorted out the academy now so I think it would also be harsh to start throwing the youth problem at him.

Although it is always tough when you look at how well Wenger manages to scout and balance the books.

[aCe']

The problem has been that we have signed way too many average players for seemingly low prices... add them up and they sum up to a big number... Some will argue that hes had to rebuild the side, but how many players who have been good enough have we sold over the years since hes been around... for whatever reason... thing is, when you buy a 7mill player, and hes good but you can do better, if the moneys available you'd be better off trying to keep that player as backup... example..

05/06

GK

Carson
Reina
Dudek
Martin

Defense

Riise
Warnock
Traore
Finnan
Barragan
Kromkamp
Agger
Carra
Hyypia

Midfield

Kewell
Zenden
Garcia
Gerrard
Hamann
Sissoko
Alonso

Forwards

Crouch
Cisse
Fowler
Morientes


Now im not going to get into details or any of that, but you tell me, did that side really need 175.79mill (66mill net spent) of further spending to get it to where it is today ?! Did we need to spend 24mill or so the following couple of season to compensate the loss of a very good Sissoko for 8mill ? so on and so on...

[tubby]

In short? Yes.

Lol

[bunglemark2]

It took Fergie 5 years to produce 1 player from his youth that would go onto be a fixture in the first team - Ryan Giggs. We have Insua and this is only Rafas 5th year. Plus he only really has sorted out the academy now so I think it would also be harsh to start throwing the youth problem at him.

Although it is always tough when you look at how well Wenger manages to scout and balance the books.

You sure Giggs is the only one ? I would've thought there were a helluva lot more than that....

[Sir Roger]

It took Fergie 5 years to produce 1 player from his youth that would go onto be a fixture in the first team - Ryan Giggs. We have Insua and this is only Rafas 5th year. Plus he only really has sorted out the academy now so I think it would also be harsh to start throwing the youth problem at him.

Although it is always tough when you look at how well Wenger manages to scout and balance the books.

You sure Giggs is the only one ? I would've thought there were a helluva lot more than that....

Maybe he forgot about scholes, neville (G), beckham, neville (P) sharpe etc etc...

[tubby]

It took Fergie 5 years to produce 1 player from his youth that would go onto be a fixture in the first team - Ryan Giggs. We have Insua and this is only Rafas 5th year. Plus he only really has sorted out the academy now so I think it would also be harsh to start throwing the youth problem at him.

Although it is always tough when you look at how well Wenger manages to scout and balance the books.

You sure Giggs is the only one ? I would've thought there were a helluva lot more than that....

Maybe he forgot about scholes, neville (G), beckham, neville (P) sharpe etc etc...

By all means show me some facts and stats to correct me if I am wrong but I believe all those mentioned broke into the 1st team after Giggs. (ala after those first 5 years)

[Sir Roger]

It took Fergie 5 years to produce 1 player from his youth that would go onto be a fixture in the first team - Ryan Giggs. We have Insua and this is only Rafas 5th year. Plus he only really has sorted out the academy now so I think it would also be harsh to start throwing the youth problem at him.

Although it is always tough when you look at how well Wenger manages to scout and balance the books.

You sure Giggs is the only one ? I would've thought there were a helluva lot more than that....

Maybe he forgot about scholes, neville (G), beckham, neville (P) sharpe etc etc...

By all means show me some facts and stats to correct me if I am wrong but I believe all those mentioned broke into the 1st team after Giggs. (ala after those first 5 years)

How long after?
A year?
Two?
Five?

[devaney]

What you have to remember is when you have less to spend per player there is a greater chance the player will be no good. If we got the 12Mil we were quoted when we sounded out Vidic we would have gotten him but we only had under 6 so we went for Agger. We needed 13Mil for Simao but instead we got Pennant for 7Mil. And so on...

Ferguson is able to spend premiums per position hence ensuring he is bringing in quality. But of course I admit Rafa has made bad signings. Im not disputing that.

The time has been and gone when Fergie was spending twice the amount we were net and he is able to reap those rewards now. Whether Rafa will last long enough for us to be able to potentially say the same things about 4 years or so from now who knows. I doubt it given todays climate.

Ok forget about Ferguson just for the moment and let's do a simple comparison with Spurs who have won very little during the last three years other than the League Cup. Take a look at their squad and what they have spent and convince me that they don't have a stronger team than LFC with some serious strength in depth. There net spend is substantially less than Rafa's.

This hurts me to admit but look what Moyes has achieved with buttons. Take the sale of Rooney and Lescott into account and he has spent very little. Ok there not world beaters but look where they finished in the league last season. Bav you say we couldn't afford Vidic and Simao. You blame the owners for lack of funds  but Everton payed £4m for Jagielka in 2007 and next to nothing for Cahill (£1.5m in 2004 and 37 goals in 132 matches) and Arteta who he took a massive chance with after his poor performances with both Rangers and Real Sociedad (£2m in 2005 and 6 goals in 26 PL games last season!). That is a total of £7.5m for the three of them. That is what I call using transfer funds effectively!

I harped on about strength in depth last season and some of Rafa's legendary transfer c.ock ups! Keane at £20m almost made us look a laughing stock! Babel at £11m makes us look like a registered charity! I am sorry Bav but you cannot have it every which way. You blame the owners for not providing funds. If I was the owner I'd be worried about Rafa's ability to bring in the right players based on where he chose to waste £31m on and let's not blame Parry it is boring!

It is not just about money, money and more money. Imagination is also important. Look at the timing of Rafa's substitutions if you need further evidence that he lacks imagination. United were losing 2-0 to Spurs at half time in a vital PL match towards the end of last season. Ferguson made substitutions and tactical changes at half time and United won 5-2. THAT IS WHAT A MANAGER IS SUPPOSED TO DO!

[tubby]

It took Fergie 5 years to produce 1 player from his youth that would go onto be a fixture in the first team - Ryan Giggs. We have Insua and this is only Rafas 5th year. Plus he only really has sorted out the academy now so I think it would also be harsh to start throwing the youth problem at him.

Although it is always tough when you look at how well Wenger manages to scout and balance the books.

You sure Giggs is the only one ? I would've thought there were a helluva lot more than that....

Maybe he forgot about scholes, neville (G), beckham, neville (P) sharpe etc etc...

By all means show me some facts and stats to correct me if I am wrong but I believe all those mentioned broke into the 1st team after Giggs. (ala after those first 5 years)

How long after?
A year?
Two?
Five?

Fergus arrives in 1986.

Giggs 1991-1992
G Neville 1994–95
Scholes 1994–95
P Neville 1995–96

Lee Sharpe was bought from Tourquay in 1988 so didn't even come through Utd youth system. So what was yout point? They didn't all break through in 1991 did they? 

[DrPepe]

So the point is rafa should spend wiser and finish 5th 7th 13th like moyes?

[tubby]

What you have to remember is when you have less to spend per player there is a greater chance the player will be no good. If we got the 12Mil we were quoted when we sounded out Vidic we would have gotten him but we only had under 6 so we went for Agger. We needed 13Mil for Simao but instead we got Pennant for 7Mil. And so on...

Ferguson is able to spend premiums per position hence ensuring he is bringing in quality. But of course I admit Rafa has made bad signings. Im not disputing that.

The time has been and gone when Fergie was spending twice the amount we were net and he is able to reap those rewards now. Whether Rafa will last long enough for us to be able to potentially say the same things about 4 years or so from now who knows. I doubt it given todays climate.

Ok forget about Ferguson just for the moment and let's do a simple comparison with Spurs who have won very little during the last three years other than the League Cup. Take a look at their squad and what they have spent and convince me that they don't have a stronger team than LFC with some serious strength in depth. There net spend is substantially less than Rafa's.

This hurts me to admit but look what Moyes has achieved with buttons. Take the sale of Rooney and Lescott into account and he has spent very little. Ok there not world beaters but look where they finished in the league last season. Bav you say we couldn't afford Vidic and Simao. You blame the owners for lack of funds  but Everton payed £4m for Jagielka in 2007 and next to nothing for Cahill (£1.5m in 2004 and 37 goals in 132 matches) and Arteta who he took a massive chance with after his poor performances with both Rangers and Real Sociedad (£2m in 2005 and 6 goals in 26 PL games last season!). That is a total of £7.5m for the three of them. That is what I call using transfer funds effectively!

I harped on about strength in depth last season and some of Rafa's legendary transfer c.ock ups! Keane at £20m almost made us look a laughing stock! Babel at £11m makes us look like a registered charity! I am sorry Bav but you cannot have it every which way. You blame the owners for not providing funds. If I was the owner I'd be worried about Rafa's ability to bring in the right players based on where he chose to waste £31m on and let's not blame Parry it is boring!

It is not just about money, money and more money. Imagination is also important. Look at the timing of Rafa's substitutions if you need further evidence that he lacks imagination. United were losing 2-0 to Spurs at half time in a vital PL match towards the end of last season. Ferguson made substitutions and tactical changes at half time and United won 5-2. THAT IS WHAT A MANAGER IS SUPPOSED TO DO!

Sure I agree Spurs have a strong squad man for man but they have spent a lot over the years too.

As for looking at who has signed how it's too easy to sit back from the armchair and make such statements. What's next Fabregas only cost 500k?

I am NOT denying Rafa has made bad buys. But the fact that we were last season in a position where we got 86 points, scored more goals than anyone else and by all accounts threw the league away to utd means he has done a good job compared to the side which didn't even finish in the top 4 in 2004/2005.

As for the Spurs result last year for Utd they have the strengh in depth meaning when they make a sub they can still put on a good performance. Utd do not need to field their strongest team week in week out to get the 3 points. We do and that is the difference between us and them. Granted we have a few injuries but still when you look at our bench compared to theirs there is a gaping difference in quality.

Im not saying Rafa has been perfect in every sense but it could be a lot worse. I understand the fans are desperate for the league again but it's a slow process and if you don't have patience the only other option is to spend a lot of wonga. Chelsea are a prime example of that. Combined with a top manager as they did they constructed a side that has since always challanged for all honours.

We are asking Rafa to buy a Burger King when we only have enough for a Mac Donalds.

[tubby]

So the point is rafa should spend wiser and finish 5th 7th 13th like moyes?

It would seem so. 

[devaney]

So the point is rafa should spend wiser and finish 5th 7th 13th like moyes?

No the point is what could  Moyes have done with the money Rafa has wasted,  you fkg sarcastic muppet - sorry there was no need for that!

[tubby]

So the point is rafa should spend wiser and finish 5th 7th 13th like moyes?

No the point is what could have Moyes done with the money Rafa has wasted,  you fkg sarcastic muppet - sorry there was no need for that!

Rafa has made good bargain signings too. Agger is one of the best in the PL on his day no doubt, he was coveted by AC Milan and cost what 5Mil?

He bought Alonso for only 10Mil and then sold him for more than 3 times that price.

He bought Fernando Torres who in his position is one of the best strikers in the world for a sum would probably be 3 times that amount by todays stupid standards. Even still 20mil was a bargain for him.

Reina one of top 3 keepers in the world he got for relativley cheap as well when you consider how much Buffon moved for a few years ago.