Liverpool FC Forum

by **Madmax** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:26 pm

GYBS wrote:I think going forward he has looked pretty decent its just his positional sense when defending is very very poor but is that something that is coached and comes with experience ? he seems quick enough going forward and got one of the best cross in the team ? yeah agree nando was never suited to the rpem - shame as i really liked him.

yeah me too really like morientes. Thought he was the real deal. same happend to shevchenko i thought he was going to be a hit in the premiership. Its really odd when this happens to players

by **GYBS** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:27 pm

Yeah agree as they are no doubt world class - Shevchenko was prob my fav non liverpool player for years just ruined it by going to chavs - should of stayed in italy and ended his career a legend and i hope his spell at chelsea hasnt ruined it . Same with veron - outstanding player but awful in the prem .

by **Madmax** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:38 pm

I think that could have happened to many players though. The ones we assumed are stars would have been flops in the premiership.

by **GYBS** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:45 pm

So as a general rule do we pretty much give a player a season to see if he settles in - maybe a bit mroe for a youngster ?

by **Fo Dne** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:18 pm

If the clueless moron hadn't started the thread I'd put my two pence worth in. But seen as he started it, I'll just say:

People make pathetic excuses for players not being good enough. They assume they will learn things they can't do and then say things like coaching will improve their faults. It won't. It never has and never will. People also use the excuse of a foreign player moving into a new league for the reason they forget how to pass, move, run, touch a ball and do anything.

I'm sorry, when I play footy on holiday in Spain with Spanish lads I am still the same player who does the same things. I still pass the same, movement the same and run the same and have the same technique. I don't all of a sudden do anything any better or worse. Occassionally you can't communicate properly but thats not the be all and end all and ability alround is the most important things and can make up for a lack of communication as Torres shown.

Adapting to a different system and style is something that people comment on without truely understanding it. Keane is an example of this at the moment. Not Lucas and certainly not the waster that is Babel.

by **GYBS** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:32 pm

Well done - nice and pleasant thread with people discussing and seeing other peoples opinions and debating without insults until you arrive . For someone who thinks they know absolutley everything and claim to get everything right why arent you a football manager in the prem or a coach or a scout as opposed to claiming to know everything and just put down peoples opinions and point of view.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:44 pm

Fo Dne wrote:If the clueless moron hadn't started the thread I'd put my two pence worth in. But seen as he started it, I'll just say:

People make pathetic excuses for players not being good enough. They assume they will learn things they can't do and then say things like coaching will improve their faults. It won't. It never has and never will. People also use the excuse of a foreign player moving into a new league for the reason they forget how to pass, move, run, touch a ball and do anything.

I'm sorry, when I play footy on holiday in Spain with Spanish lads I am still the same player who does the same things. I still pass the same, movement the same and run the same and have the same technique. I don't all of a sudden do anything any better or worse. Occassionally you can't communicate properly but thats not the be all and end all and ability alround is the most important things and can make up for a lack of communication as Torres shown.

Adapting to a different system and style is something that people comment on without truely understanding it. Keane is an example of this at the moment. Not Lucas and certainly not the waster that is Babel.

You make a lot of good points mate, the thing that I find baffling is why managers buy a player and then ask them to play in a completely different way to how they have played when they were successful at their previous club.

I know you don't rate Cisse, but I watched him a few times before he came to Liverpool, and he never played on the shoulder of the last defender like he did while he was here. Morientes never played as a target man with Real , yes he was good in the air, but that doesn't mean he can play that way.

Same with Keane, I know Rafa hasn't had much option but play him up front because of Torres being injured, but even when Torres is fit he is never going to play the way Keane is used to his partners playing.

If you look at that YOUTUBE clip I posted of Lucas, he looks great running with the ball. I can't remember him ever running with the ball for us!

by **Reg** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:54 pm

About 6 years in Harry Kewell´s case.

by **GYBS** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:57 pm

Think kewell was always good enough just never bloody fit :angry:

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:57 pm

Fo Dne wrote:People make pathetic excuses for players not being good enough. They assume they will learn things they can't do and then say things like coaching will improve their faults. It won't. It never has and never will.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:02 am

GYBS wrote:Well done - nice and pleasant thread with people discussing and seeing other peoples opinions and debating without insults until you arrive . For someone who thinks they know absolutley everything and claim to get everything right why arent you a football manager in the prem or a coach or a scout as opposed to claiming to know everything and just put down peoples opinions and point of view.

Here we go! :laugh:

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:04 am

s@int wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:If the clueless moron hadn't started the thread I'd put my two pence worth in. But seen as he started it, I'll just say:

People make pathetic excuses for players not being good enough. They assume they will learn things they can't do and then say things like coaching will improve their faults. It won't. It never has and never will. People also use the excuse of a foreign player moving into a new league for the reason they forget how to pass, move, run, touch a ball and do anything.

I'm sorry, when I play footy on holiday in Spain with Spanish lads I am still the same player who does the same things. I still pass the same, movement the same and run the same and have the same technique. I don't all of a sudden do anything any better or worse. Occassionally you can't communicate properly but thats not the be all and end all and ability alround is the most important things and can make up for a lack of communication as Torres shown.

Adapting to a different system and style is something that people comment on without truely understanding it. Keane is an example of this at the moment. Not Lucas and certainly not the waster that is Babel.

You make a lot of good points mate, the thing that I find baffling is why managers buy a player and then ask them to play in a completely different way to how they have played when they were successful at their previous club.

I know you don't rate Cisse, but I watched him a few times before he came to Liverpool, and he never played on the shoulder of the last defender like he did while he was here. Morientes never played as a target man with Real , yes he was good in the air, but that doesn't mean he can play that way.

Same with Keane, I know Rafa hasn't had much option but play him up front because of Torres being injured, but even when Torres is fit he is never going to play the way Keane is used to his partners playing.

If you look at that YOUTUBE clip I posted of Lucas, he looks great running with the ball. I can't remember him ever running with the ball for us!

Lucas is poo. Keane needs to play his natural game and the things we bought him for will happen naturally, he looks baffled by instructions and confidence at times.

Rafa isn't the best at getting the best out of certain players.

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:42 am

Fo Dne wrote:I'm sorry, when I play footy on holiday in Spain with Spanish lads I am still the same player who does the same things. I still pass the same, movement the same and run the same and have the same technique. I don't all of a sudden do anything any better or worse. Occassionally you can't communicate properly but thats not the be all and end all and ability alround is the most important things and can make up for a lack of communication as Torres shown.

But then again your on holiday. Players like Lucas, and lets not forget how young they are, have to change many aspects of there life. Its not just on the pitch, its off it also. They have to change there language, there style of living, being without there family. Its not as black and white as "on the pitch".

Torres has adapted easily because we all seem to be forgetting, he was captain at his last club and had to endure more responsibility than he does here at Liverpool so this is a walk in the park compared to his last club.

by **aCe'** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:57 am

Kharhaz wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:I'm sorry, when I play footy on holiday in Spain with Spanish lads I am still the same player who does the same things. I still pass the same, movement the same and run the same and have the same technique. I don't all of a sudden do anything any better or worse. Occassionally you can't communicate properly but thats not the be all and end all and ability alround is the most important things and can make up for a lack of communication as Torres shown.

But then again your on holiday. Players like Lucas, and lets not forget how young they are, have to change many aspects of there life. Its not just on the pitch, its off it also. They have to change there language, there style of living, being without there family. Its not as black and white as "on the pitch".

Torres has adapted easily because we all seem to be forgetting, he was captain at his last club and had to endure more responsibility than he does here at Liverpool so this is a walk in the park compared to his last club.

wouldnt quite call it walk in the park .. lucas was captain of the brazil u21 if im not wrong and brazilian league player of the year was it ? why isnt it a walk in the park for him ?

its a step up for both at the end of the day isnt it ?

all comes down to quality as Stu says and you either got it or you dont really... ages 14, 16 and 18 imo... shape up you technique, tactical and physical attributes repectively... beyond that all the coaching and training in the world might improve you a little as a player overall but will only take you so far..

iv yet to know what lucas does best to be honest.. iv seen him play for Brazil a few times and he's looked a million times the player he is at Liverpool... no fancy stuff just a simple passing game with good tracking back and aerial presence and good allround distribution of the ball.. he's yet to show that at liverpool and i dont know if he ever will given the way hes performed for us so far... that said, wouldnt want him anywhere near the starting 11 anytime soon...

Dossena simply hasnt got a f*ing clue and i think the sooner we get rid the better... Babel i'd be willling to give a chance but i dont think theres much more to his game than what we'r seeing now... maybe if he plays upfront he'll grab a few more goals but i wouldnt expect a change in positions to make him a better player all of a sudden or to lead to him having a better touch or better decision making.. but i'd stick him up there with Torres out because between him and Kuyt he'd always get my vote..

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:04 am

aCe' wrote:wouldnt quite call it walk in the park .. lucas was captain of the brazil u21 if im not wrong and brazilian league player of the year was it ? why isnt it a walk in the park for him ?

There is a massive difference. First of, as with all international games, you get the "best of" the internationals. In club football, it is totally different. You may as well compare the under 18s captains of every country with the captains of every country in the senior level. Its a daft argument. Torres had to captain his team at atletico, with thousands of eyes and players much older than him having more experience watching him. And that was at the age of 17*. So like I say,this experience at liverpool is totally different. Here he has to learn english, settle down in a new area and score goals. So really he only has to do 2 of those things, he has the experience to deal with the rest.

EDIT: age of 19 !

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