Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:32 pm

Now I haven't seen the game but I've read the comments. There are enough observations from people who's view I respect to convince me that we didn't play well again, but that's not the point of the post.

Whichever way you look at it, and however we've done it, we are actually out of the blocks for the first time in years. Doesn't mean much after two games as you can't win the title after two matches (although you can put yourself out of it after about five as we've shown in the past), but we have a chance here. The Mancs have already dropped points at home and visit Anfield in our next game but one. Arsenal have already lost, and meanwhile it would be reasonable to assume/hope that there is still masses of improvement to come from our misfiring team.

Man Utd visit Portsmouth in their next match, and it's looking like a game they could really do with winning (not necessarily because of us but because Chelsea have that "we're going to win our first ten matches" look about them). Should they lose there and then should we finally beat them at Anfield, they would be in trouble. If we won in between times at Villa, we could be looking at a very healthy lead over them. I'm not saying they'd be out of it, but they wouldn't exactly be in it either. I tell you this, if the situation was reversed they would DEFINATELY win at Villa and pile the pressure onto us. We absolutely must do the same.

I actually felt last season we had real chances to get away, to make them all sweat until the farce of Fratton Park. We absolutely must not make the same mistake as last time. A draw ar Villa is not what we are looking for, we MUST go all out for the win. As soon as Masherano comes back, lets get the strongest team on the pitch and keep it there. Keep playing it until the team starts to gel, then play it some more.

One last thing. People talk about priorities. They talk about a manager who puts the Champions League ahead of the Premiership. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I will say this. If Gerrard is carrying an injury, he should be nowhere near the pitch or the bench against Standard Liege at Home. If Plessis over Alonso really was a merit based selection, then let the Frenchman play in this match and show us what he's made of.

by **Number 9** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:49 pm

Its funny the contrast of emotions you feel as a supporter.While watching both our first two League games i was livid with a lot of things,mainly the lack of passion and effort.Today especially the pointless long balls and pathetic corners where we either played it short and were put under pressure and ended up playing back up the pitch or the schoolboy failure of crossing it in and failing to beat the firts man.
Now in reflection im delighted because we were overall poor and nowhere near what we are capable of.The reasons being luck and that Gerrard actually decided he wanted to play when the game was nearly over that we have 3 points will be forgot about soon and the reality is we have 3 points today and 6 out of 6!
As BigMick says we should take advantage of this.We dont usually get much luck of our own so must capitalise on the fact that UTD dropped 2 points last week and Arsenal were beat today.
Make no mistake though UTD have a lot of key players out and when they get them back they will be back to their usual form.

For us in two weeks time this IMO is the best opportunity(on paper) we have in years of beating them.I just hope we can start to show a bit of passion beetween us and do it!
If we beat Villa next week which we should and are well capable of there is no reason we cant let UTD come to Anfield and send them home with fu'ck all but bruises!

It does seem early to be saying what Mick is saying but if we keep winning home and away it will do a hell of a lot for the teams confidence and mentality if our main competetors are dropping silly points and we are winning games that we dropped points in last year!

by **bigmick** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:04 pm

Number 9 wrote:It does seem early to be saying what Mick is saying but if we keep winning home and away it will do a hell of a lot for the teams confidence and mentality if our main competetors are dropping silly points and we are winning games that we dropped points in last year!

It is early Baz, but my feeling is we will need to overcome Man Utd and Chelsea if we are going to win the League (I don't see arsenal as genuine contenders this time around after losing first team players again). Both teams and squads though, are slightly better than ours in my view. That said, if we could give ourselves a five or six point gap over Man Utd with say 34 games to go then I think we ought to be able to make a decent fist of holding them off.

This is where I slightly disagree with those who say "well we've only played five matches so we're by no means out of it", or "a draw at Sheffield United isn't actually a bad result". It may not be mathematically over after five games, and a draw at Sheffield United may not be a disaster but you do only play 38 games, and you do need in excess of 80 points to have any chance whatsoever of winning it. If you drop points at Fratton park with a weakened team, or Bramhall Lane it simply means that you have to pick them up somewhere else instead.

Now if we win at Villa, we will be in a fairly unusual situation in that we will be playing the Mancs without our challenge largely depending upon the outcome of one match. Almost every time we've played them while Rafa has been manager (or at least the first time we've played them each season) we have needed to win the game to stay in contention. If they fail to beat Portsmouth, they will be needing to avoid defeat at the very least, and very probably win the game to feel comfortable. Suddenly we have the opportunity to put THEM under pressure and we absolutely must take it. We had the same chance last season, as they fell out of the blocks and Chelsea imploded before sacking their manager. We didn't take our chance last time, I hope we've learned our lesson.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:09 pm

Number 9 wrote:Its funny the contrast of emotions you feel as a supporter.While watching both our first two League games i was livid with a lot of things,mainly the lack of passion and effort.Today especially the pointless long balls and pathetic corners where we either played it short and were put under pressure and ended up playing back up the pitch or the schoolboy failure of crossing it in and failing to beat the firts man.
Now in reflection im delighted because we were overall poor and nowhere near what we are capable of.The reasons being luck and that Gerrard actually decided he wanted to play when the game was nearly over that we have 3 points will be forgot about soon and the reality is we have 3 points today and 6 out of 6!
As BigMick says we should take advantage of this.We dont usually get much luck of our own so must capitalise on the fact that UTD dropped 2 points last week and Arsenal were beat today.
Make no mistake though UTD have a lot of key players out and when they get them back they will be back to their usual form.

For us in two weeks time this IMO is the best opportunity(on paper) we have in years of beating them.I just hope we can start to show a bit of passion beetween us and do it!
If we beat Villa next week which we should and are well capable of there is no reason we cant let UTD come to Anfield and send them home with fu'ck all but bruises!

It does seem early to be saying what Mick is saying but if we keep winning home and away it will do a hell of a lot for the teams confidence and mentality if our main competetors are dropping silly points and we are winning games that we dropped points in last year!

Whilst I'd agree the lads are still someways off the pace we'd like them to be at by this point, I wouldn't go so far as to say they lack effort and passion. I think the quality and vigour of our play will pick up as we get more games under our belts and shake off the ring-rustiness. Last week, for instance, it looked like we were running through porridge all day. Today, there was much more pep to our play but it still looked too laboured and one-gear at times. But, I don't think it's as though the players can't be a.rsed out there. Gerrard's a great example today. He was giving it a go all game but nothing was working for him and you could see that in his face. But, when he finally got the chance to smash it home at the death, the passion was evident.

Sorry, bit of a tangent from Mick's original point--with which I completely agree.

by **Sabre** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:13 pm

Yesteryear we also were top of the table in the early weeks, I think in the 4th-5th week, or at least with the same points of the other team in the top. Meaning it's all nice but meaningless, we have to work hard.

Today it's been a strange game, for what I have seen in the stream (still have to watch the game with better quality) we haven't played badly IN THE FIRST HALF. Benayoun was almost unexistant, but Alonso found Keane with some decent passes, the Irish red showed some interesting combinations with Torres, and Kuyt was pressing hard, recovering goals and even starting counter attacks.

But in the second half we've been pretty poor, we've seen poor Alonso minutes and the team have been not accurate. It was frustrating to see the team 0-1 down and passing the ball too calmly between the CB. The bit Number 9 mentions about corners is not new, I don't understand why for instance Kuyt takes a corner, it's an important part of the game and we see too many of our players taking them.

Top of the table is nice but we have to work hard in old departments with problems like corners. We have to press better as a team, we have to recover the defensive rigour that we DO know to have and that makes players like Arbeloa look better than they are. We have to be that team that stats say that allowed least shots to opposition last season. We cannot afford 20 disastrous minutes like the ones Alonso had today.

We haven't improved a lot with the signings, Keane certainly looks interesting, but I still don't see why Dossena is any better than Fabio Aurelio. So if we want these 6 points not to be an anecdote we have to recover our defensive rigour, be more effective on set pieces and give 100% of concentration.

If we do so we'll be able to challenge for the league if our rivals are not as infalible as previous 2 years. We might have improved the team better in the summer but we're good enough to make things better than we are doing.

by **Number 9** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:16 pm

bigmick wrote:
Number 9 wrote:It does seem early to be saying what Mick is saying but if we keep winning home and away it will do a hell of a lot for the teams confidence and mentality if our main competetors are dropping silly points and we are winning games that we dropped points in last year!

It is early Baz, but my feeling is we will need to overcome Man Utd and Chelsea if we are going to win the League (I don't see arsenal as genuine contenders this time around after losing first team players again). Both teams and squads though, are slightly better than ours in my view. That said, if we could give ourselves a five or six point gap over Man Utd with say 34 games to go then I think we ought to be able to make a decent fist of holding them off.

This is where I slightly disagree with those who say "well we've only played five matches so we're by no means out of it", or "a draw at Sheffield United isn't actually a bad result". It may not be mathematically over after five games, and a draw at Sheffield United may not be a disaster but you do only play 38 games, and you do need in excess of 80 points to have any chance whatsoever of winning it. If you drop points at Fratton park with a weakened team, or Bramhall Lane it simply means that you have to pick them up somewhere else instead.

Now if we win at Villa, we will be in a fairly unusual situation in that we will be playing the Mancs without our challenge largely depending upon the outcome of one match. Almost every time we've played them while Rafa has been manager (or at least the first time we've played them each season) we have needed to win the game to stay in contention. If they fail to beat Portsmouth, they will be needing to avoid defeat at the very least, and very probably win the game to feel comfortable. Suddenly we have the opportunity to put THEM under pressure and we absolutely must take it. We had the same chance last season, as they fell out of the blocks and Chelsea imploded before sacking their manager. We didn't take our chance last time, I hope we've learned our lesson.

I hear you mate! The next two games are as big as the last two of the season in a way.If we beat Villa and then UTD not only will we have 12 outta 12 points but a four point lead(at least) on the favourites.But its what it will do for the belief and mentality of the players that will be more significant IMO....because they have looked great at times under Rafa but never like a team who actually believed they could win the League!

Im just praying that Chelsea fu'ck up tomorrow and UTD loose or draw at Fratton PK on Monday night!

I know people say its early but if you loose now,January or April it does'nt matter its still 3 points down the sh'itter!

Keep it going LFC! :buttrock

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:19 pm

bigmick wrote:
Number 9 wrote:It does seem early to be saying what Mick is saying but if we keep winning home and away it will do a hell of a lot for the teams confidence and mentality if our main competetors are dropping silly points and we are winning games that we dropped points in last year!

It is early Baz, but my feeling is we will need to overcome Man Utd and Chelsea if we are going to win the League (I don't see arsenal as genuine contenders this time around after losing first team players again). Both teams and squads though, are slightly better than ours in my view. That said, if we could give ourselves a five or six point gap over Man Utd with say 34 games to go then I think we ought to be able to make a decent fist of holding them off.

This is where I slightly disagree with those who say "well we've only played five matches so we're by no means out of it", or "a draw at Sheffield United isn't actually a bad result". It may not be mathematically over after five games, and a draw at Sheffield United may not be a disaster but you do only play 38 games, and you do need in excess of 80 points to have any chance whatsoever of winning it. If you drop points at Fratton park with a weakened team, or Bramhall Lane it simply means that you have to pick them up somewhere else instead.

Now if we win at Villa, we will be in a fairly unusual situation in that we will be playing the Mancs without our challenge largely depending upon the outcome of one match. Almost every time we've played them while Rafa has been manager (or at least the first time we've played them each season) we have needed to win the game to stay in contention. If they fail to beat Portsmouth, they will be needing to avoid defeat at the very least, and very probably win the game to feel comfortable. Suddenly we have the opportunity to put THEM under pressure and we absolutely must take it. We had the same chance last season, as they fell out of the blocks and Chelsea imploded before sacking their manager. We didn't take our chance last time, I hope we've learned our lesson.

Picking up on what you say about the importance of the next two league fixtures, Mick, it will be very interesting to see what kind of team Rafa fields mid-week. On the one hand, there's no real need to tinker because it's so early in the season that the lads couldn't truly be tired (

). But, what if Gerrard could use a rest to help him shake off the last bit of his groin niggle? Clearly we still rely on Stevie's drive, creativity and--as we saw today--goals and, on current form, his absence would be keenly felt. So, would Rafa have the guts to give him a rest if he needs it, preserving him for the trip to Villa Park, all at the risk of crashing out of the CL? I'm sure our owners will want to see a full-strength side on Tuesday, given the financial implications of the result. It should be an interesting teamsheet!

by **Number 9** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:28 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Its funny the contrast of emotions you feel as a supporter.While watching both our first two League games i was livid with a lot of things,mainly the lack of passion and effort.Today especially the pointless long balls and pathetic corners where we either played it short and were put under pressure and ended up playing back up the pitch or the schoolboy failure of crossing it in and failing to beat the firts man.
Now in reflection im delighted because we were overall poor and nowhere near what we are capable of.The reasons being luck and that Gerrard actually decided he wanted to play when the game was nearly over that we have 3 points will be forgot about soon and the reality is we have 3 points today and 6 out of 6!
As BigMick says we should take advantage of this.We dont usually get much luck of our own so must capitalise on the fact that UTD dropped 2 points last week and Arsenal were beat today.
Make no mistake though UTD have a lot of key players out and when they get them back they will be back to their usual form.

For us in two weeks time this IMO is the best opportunity(on paper) we have in years of beating them.I just hope we can start to show a bit of passion beetween us and do it!
If we beat Villa next week which we should and are well capable of there is no reason we cant let UTD come to Anfield and send them home with fu'ck all but bruises!

It does seem early to be saying what Mick is saying but if we keep winning home and away it will do a hell of a lot for the teams confidence and mentality if our main competetors are dropping silly points and we are winning games that we dropped points in last year!

Whilst I'd agree the lads are still someways off the pace we'd like them to be at by this point, I wouldn't go so far as to say they lack effort and passion. I think the quality and vigour of our play will pick up as we get more games under our belts and shake off the ring-rustiness. Last week, for instance, it looked like we were running through porridge all day. Today, there was much more pep to our play but it still looked too laboured and one-gear at times. But, I don't think it's as though the players can't be a.rsed out there. Gerrard's a great example today. He was giving it a go all game but nothing was working for him and you could see that in his face. But, when he finally got the chance to smash it home at the death, the passion was evident.

Sorry, bit of a tangent from Mick's original point--with which I completely agree.

We must see effort and passion in a different way mate!
IMO there was none from anyone today out there until Boro scored.Then they finally realised they were in a game as opposed to coasting along and hoping a team mate would actually create something decent.There is absolutely no excuse for playing lazy long balls into a box lobbing it over the head of Gerrard and Alonso.There is no excuse for our pathetic corners of that quality.

The effort was slightly better but not in a million years near enough.WE WERE PLAYING AT ANFIELD against Boro and should be taking games like that by the scruff and dominating them!
Im still delighted though with 3 points!

As ya said back to BigMicks post

by **rafa09** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:29 pm

Love this topic because it,s all POSITIVE!! Thats what we need. Slagging off the team is pointless.We,ll do leige on wed.Then barry will give pen away next week in last min,for stevie-g to score winner in last minute AGAIN,just to :censored:

MON off

by **bigmick** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:29 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Number 9 wrote:It does seem early to be saying what Mick is saying but if we keep winning home and away it will do a hell of a lot for the teams confidence and mentality if our main competetors are dropping silly points and we are winning games that we dropped points in last year!

It is early Baz, but my feeling is we will need to overcome Man Utd and Chelsea if we are going to win the League (I don't see arsenal as genuine contenders this time around after losing first team players again). Both teams and squads though, are slightly better than ours in my view. That said, if we could give ourselves a five or six point gap over Man Utd with say 34 games to go then I think we ought to be able to make a decent fist of holding them off.

This is where I slightly disagree with those who say "well we've only played five matches so we're by no means out of it", or "a draw at Sheffield United isn't actually a bad result". It may not be mathematically over after five games, and a draw at Sheffield United may not be a disaster but you do only play 38 games, and you do need in excess of 80 points to have any chance whatsoever of winning it. If you drop points at Fratton park with a weakened team, or Bramhall Lane it simply means that you have to pick them up somewhere else instead.

Now if we win at Villa, we will be in a fairly unusual situation in that we will be playing the Mancs without our challenge largely depending upon the outcome of one match. Almost every time we've played them while Rafa has been manager (or at least the first time we've played them each season) we have needed to win the game to stay in contention. If they fail to beat Portsmouth, they will be needing to avoid defeat at the very least, and very probably win the game to feel comfortable. Suddenly we have the opportunity to put THEM under pressure and we absolutely must take it. We had the same chance last season, as they fell out of the blocks and Chelsea imploded before sacking their manager. We didn't take our chance last time, I hope we've learned our lesson.

Picking up on what you say about the importance of the next two league fixtures, Mick, it will be very interesting to see what kind of team Rafa fields mid-week. On the one hand, there's no real need to tinker because it's so early in the season that the lads couldn't truly be tired ( ). But, what if Gerrard could use a rest to help him shake off the last bit of his groin niggle? Clearly we still rely on Stevie's drive, creativity and--as we saw today--goals and, on current form, his absence would be keenly felt. So, would Rafa have the guts to give him a rest if he needs it, preserving him for the trip to Villa Park, all at the risk of crashing out of the CL? I'm sure our owners will want to see a full-strength side on Tuesday, given the financial implications of the result. It should be an interesting teamsheet!

As I said in the first post Bob, I wouldnt have Gerrard anywhere near Anfield. I would even consider a bit of old fashioned "styling", Agger could do with a game and we could even rest Torres. My priority this season would be 100% the league, but I still think that with a weakened team we ought to be able to beat the Belgians.

All that said, I take your point about the owners (or indeed any owners in this situation) but I hope that common sense prevails where Gerrard is concerned at least.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:50 pm

Number 9 wrote:We must see effort and passion in a different way mate!
IMO there was none from anyone today out there until Boro scored.Then they finally realised they were in a game as opposed to coasting along and hoping a team mate would actually create something decent.There is absolutely no excuse for playing lazy long balls into a box lobbing it over the head of Gerrard and Alonso.There is no excuse for our pathetic corners of that quality.

The effort was slightly better but not in a million years near enough.WE WERE PLAYING AT ANFIELD against Boro and should be taking games like that by the scruff and dominating them!
Im still delighted though with 3 points!
As ya said back to BigMicks post

Sure, Baz, because Alonso wasn't a.rsed whether he hit the first man or not on those corners!

Joking aside, I saw a team that was still finding their way early doors and was still not executing anywhere near their level of potential. I didn't see a team that lacked passion. Just because there aren't 11 Kuyts on the pitch haring around at 90 miles an hour doesn't mean the lads don't give a :censored:

.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:08 am

I would play our strongest team against Liege, I think we are on a roll and while the old "you dont change a winning team" saying may have lost a lot of meaning over the last few years, I still believe you should play your best players when they are available, especially when you are struggling for form.

If disaster struck and we were knocked out of the CL, it would not only mean we would have to forget about any more signings, but would certainly impact on the confidence and the momentum we are starting to build.

To be perfectly honest, without Torres and Gerrard in our opening two games we would not be sat here with smiles on our faces, but moaning and groaning about our title challenge being almost over before it started. (Not that we ever over react)

We are not so good that we can manage without Gerrard at the moment, probably one of the reasons that Rafa risked him today! Once we have got our form and are playing well THEN maybe we can risk resting one or two key players, but not yet.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:32 am

s@int wrote:We are not so good that we can manage without Gerrard at the moment, probably one of the reasons that Rafa risked him today! Once we have got our form and are playing well THEN maybe we can risk resting one or two key players, but not yet.

Spot on, that. I don't know how this team, playing as they are at the moment, could risk not playing one of their few consistent match winners. Unless he's really crocked, Gerrard should play. If we build a lead, sit him down, but start him on Tuesday. :nod

I agree with Mick about bringing Agger in for this one, though. For me, he's got to be one of our Best 11 CBs this season as he's the only one equipped to carry the ball from the back with any kind of effectiveness. I think he needs match practice and a run of games with a consistent partner (Carra, for me).

by **Number 9** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:36 am

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:We are not so good that we can manage without Gerrard at the moment, probably one of the reasons that Rafa risked him today! Once we have got our form and are playing well THEN maybe we can risk resting one or two key players, but not yet.

Spot on, that. I don't know how this team, playing as they are at the moment, could risk not playing one of their few consistent match winners. Unless he's really crocked, Gerrard should play. If we build a lead, sit him down, but start him on Tuesday.

I agree with Mick about bringing Agger in for this one, though. For me, he's got to be one of our Best 11 CBs this season as he's the only one equipped to carry the ball from the back with any kind of effectiveness. I think he needs match practice and a run of games with a consistent partner (Carra, for me).

Unforced rotation???

by **ConnO'var** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:37 am

s@int wrote: To be perfectly honest, without Torres and Gerrard in our opening two games we would not be sat here with smiles on our faces, but moaning and groaning about our title challenge being almost over before it started. (Not that we ever over react)

We are not so good that we can manage without Gerrard at the moment, probably one of the reasons that Rafa risked him today! Once we have got our form and are playing well THEN maybe we can risk resting one or two key players, but not yet.

Spot on, [email]s@int....[/email] agree 100%.

If Stevie's injured, let him be on the bench..... but a big no-no to leaving Nando out against Liege. Until the team runs a little smoother, we can't afford to do without our 2 big guns in most games from now till then.

Once rhythm has been built and confidence and understanding gained, we can talk about resting players.

Sorry Mick, I don't think now is the time to be "styling".

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