Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

My own view is that we did indeed "miss out" last season. We took 6 points against both the mancs and Chelsea something I hope will be repeated this season, but again I won't hold my breath.  If we had lost both games to the mancs we would have finished third, 16 points behind the mancs, which gives some indication of just how important these 6 pointers are. On the other hand a win at Middlesbro' and Spurs and we could now be looking back with great satisfaction on a title winning season.

I think the mancs are unquestionably weaker than they were last season(barring last minute buys), so will Liverpool get a second bite at the cherry? I bloody hope so! We need luck with injuries though as I feel our team is stronger but the backup is a little thin.

I thought last season was a one off , a year in which the mancs were in flux with their old stars fading and their new stars yet to shine brightly enough. Sadly they twinkled just enough to pull them through.

I thought with Chelsea it was more down to a unhappy squad and the manager than anything else, once they started to play as a team again they started to rack up the points more or less as usual.

Liverpool stuttered because they found themselves top and maybe the weight of expectation proved just a little to heavy. Maybe now we have experienced it, maybe we are better able to bear it this season.

Arsenal seem to have become a selling club and while they will always be a difficult side to beat , maybe they are more than happy to qualify for europe rather than being title contenders for the immediate future.

So while I think that we did have a golden opportunity last season, I see no reason why we can't take a similar opportunity this season.

[Igor Zidane]

It was an oppotuninty missed by our abysmal home form during the time the mancs were in japan or wherever . THe draws against lesser opposition was the telling factor . 2 losses all season 14 out of a possible 18 pts against our rivals . All this with out two best players out for long stints in the season . We need a stronger squad , not in numbers but in quality and we will win the league this year. We lost the league and not man u won it . To many draws against sh!te . This will hopefully be corrected this year with more attacking fullbacks ,namely Johnson and Insua . They hopefully will be the key to opening up the packed defenses  at home . Number 19 is on it's way .

[JoeTerp]

was there an opportunity missed? Certainly. But was it one that we created for ourselves in the first place? yes Did we lose it on our own? yes

IMO, for a "golden opportunity" to have happened, the Mancs would have actually had to have been negatively affected by playing in the club world cup. What actually happened was they won 11 on the bounce right after they got back, and only US BEATING THEM put a stop to that run.  Maybe its actually a blessing in disguise. You get to take a break from the PL grind, a chance to blood in youngsters with first teamers in a competitive environment that at the same time doesn't really mean a whole lot.  a "golden" opportunity would have had Chelsea far into even more turmoil after replacing Scolari, but they were nipping at our heels for most of the run in.  I don't think there is anyway that you can say the league was handed to us on a plate by the other big clubs and when we went to pick it up, we slipped, fell down the stairs and broke our neck.

[LFC2007]

We lost out because one team had better individual players than us and also crucially had plenty of experience in title chases.

At crucial stages during the season that was the telling difference in my eyes.

It was a very good opportunity for us, but 'golden' implies it was unique and arose wholly or mainly by virtue of fortunate conditions, and as Joe says, we look to have another perceptibly 'golden' opportunity ahead of us, so to me the description doesn't fit; it would be better to say we're at a key stage in our progression, something that can only be measured relative to our competitors and the conditions arising out of this. I suppose the question is really asking, 'To what extent is this opportunity a consequence of our improvements and to what extent is it a consequence of the failings or fluctuations of our competitors?'

That's a matter of relative judgment, a sizeable one almost impossible to measure or to simplify, and my reply to that is that to dislodge two the best sides in Europe - on recent performances - in the Manc's, and Chelsea, perhaps even the best two if you consider a three year period, is never going to be easy - in reality it was always going to be a mammoth task. It always required favourable conditions (aforementioned by others) and the ones you see now appear to be about right. Particularly when you consider the experience of the Manc's and also of Chelsea in challenging regularly, something that has amassed over a number of years, and in Ferguson's case as a manager, over 15 odd years. It is regarded as the toughest league to win for a reason. Further to that, as the most successful English club that hasn't won the league in 19 seasons, the conditions may need to be slightly more favourable considering the expectation-pressure that it brings with it, or otherwise rely on the management and senior players to engender/influence a culture of dogged determination and focus needed to overcome the added pressure; the mentality factor. The conditions surrounding Ferguson's first title win were quite favourable if you look back. It was no coincidence that it mirrored our (relative) decline in my opinion. The point here is that the conditions always have to be conducive and that applies to any event.

Assessing our own progression as a side in as isolated fashion as possible is a little easier and forms the other side of the judgment. It seems almost everybody agrees we have improved considerably; the football we played at the back end of last season was outstanding - we were at least for that period the best team in the league. Thus, for a sustained spell where we were required to maintain the pressure to stay in it (although some wrote us off earlier), we proved we could take it right to the wire. Something we hadn't experienced for a long time, and indeed, we might have gone all the way, only the Manc's had the experience and quality that kept them ahead when seemingly on the precipice. Here I'm thinking of Villa, Sunderland, Spurs period again, games influenced heavily by said factors.

[Effes]

How good then will you need to be to win the League this coming season.

I think a points total of 85+ will win you the league this season Mick.

I agree with the theory that the other 3 teams are potentially weakend; but I thnk it's probably being
too optimistic to think they will all falter.

If we can repeat our form against the rest of the big 4 and win most of our home games; then we will be very close this season.

We need Torres and Gerrard more or less injury free too.

[Madmax]

Agree with mick on the golden oppotunity... Last season we did miss out and failed to build a lead when mancs and other were dropping points.. Anyhow as for this season i feel the opportunity is there and IMO if we had this current squad with the addition of silva i would put a big wager on us winning the league. Its still going to be interesting though but will see which team comes on top. I've a feel this comming season there won't be much consistency with the top sides and the winner will be champion by a whisker.

[LFC2007]

I was asked to post this by a friend :-

While I'll allude myself to the ending opinion that we did lose out to an opportunity; one of which we largely made our own and capitalised on in the early months of last season. We buckled somewhat come the turn of the year, we could put it down to a number of factors like missing Torres. Or did Rafa's words in the press play a detrimental notion to our matches and Manchester Uniteds? Whatever the theories are an underlying factor amongst all those theories is must be the lack of experiance our players had when heading for that final furlong.

Many people have spoke before, that a team of regular positioning who more or less finish fourth every year cannot expect to suddenly leap from that position to first. Personally I disagreed with that notion initially, 'if you're good enough you'll win it' no matter previous positions in the league prior that.

After watching last seasons run-in I'd have to say I've changed my stance on that slightly. 'If you're good enough, you'll win it' no matter where you're coming from is still my opinion, mostly. Yet the idea of having that experience of being in a 'dog fight' for the title must surely harness the players psychological state, come next time round.

Whether or not last season was a 'Golden opportunity' thats open to opinion. Looking back my own personal opinion is that it wasn't a 'golden opportunity' missed, just an opportunity; the same opportunitys the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea and Man U have all seen sailed by in previous years when the other prevailing team had taken the league.

As for this season, I'd prefer not to say whether their is "another golden opportunity" on the horizon. Due to the events at other clubs it's almost tempting fait I think and many things could well be undone by ourselves first. Before hoping or waiting for the likes of Owen and Ancellotti to slip up respectively. We could press the destruct button ourselves.

I think if we can make our own opportunity as we did last season and concerntrate on winning as many matches as we can (that in itself is an arduous and testing time, much could happen before we begin contemplating a 'dog fight'). Then though when all that is said and done taking that extra step this year which proved a bridge to far for us last year should be a little more comfortable with the recent experience of last year.

Regardless of Chelsea, Arsenal, Man.U the opportunity is there with the team we've got. It begs the question can we build up the opportunity and this time take it?

Why didn't they post it themselves?

[bigmick]

Some interesting responses to what is obviously a bit of an "out there" thread.

As always there are lots of theories bandied about (usually started or at least named by me to be honest ) and chief amongst them which has come out here is the much discussed "basecamp theory"   .

I've always bought into this one myself, and it says that you can't make a quantum leap from fourth to first in one season. This is simply because the rarified atmosphere at altitude once you get near the summit will send you a bit skew whiff, and before long you'll need a lie down. Meanwhile, the chances are that one of the other teams, a bit more experienced in such things and no doubt with a troup of Gurkha's carrying their kit, will pass you while you're having a kip. On the face of it, this is precisely what happened last season and in many ways the theory was proven to be on the button.

The reason why I don't 100% put us finishing second down to the basecamp theory, is that as the first 2/3 of the season panned out it really did become clear that we had a fairly unique opportunity to prevail. Posters at this point usually stop reading, and draw the conclusion that I'm saying we were just lucky. No doubt they'll do so again, but I'm not, never have and never will, I'm simply saying that through a combo of circumstances and our own excellence which is unlikely to be repeated to quite the same extent, we had a massive chance.

As has been said we took 14 points out of 18 (4 wins, 2 draws) off the big four. We weren't "lucky", but by the same token we won't need to be "unlucky" next season to only get half that number. If you were having a bet, how many times over the next ten seasons will we equal or better that total? One, none, two? Chelsea's wheels came off to such an extent they changed their manager mid season, Arsenal capitulated early, while the Mancs took an age to get going. When they did finally get going (the Mancs that is) they properly got up a head of steam as Joe said, but I think if we're honest we'll know it should have been done and dusted by then.

Thsi season coming though, none of the top teams look as though they'll be as strong as they were last time around, with the only possible exceptions being us and Chelsea. Man City WILL be a factor now IMHO given the fact they won't compete in Europe, but everyone else looks weaker. As I said last season many times, it doesn't diminish the achievement of winning it even 1% if the league is weaker (they don't bother reading that either) but it's worth knowing where we are.

We aren't going to get 14 points off the big four, the Mancs aren't going to give us a start again so readily. In that sense it will be harder, but we'll have our own Gurkha troup this time, we know the pitfalls of the delayed gazelle, we know that only those who attack relentlessly will reach the summit and stay there. We have all the necessary maps, weather forcasts and supplies, there should be no surprises.

I think we have a huge chance, but it might be a funny old league this time around.

[JC_81]

We aren't going to get 14 points off the big four, the Mancs aren't going to give us a start again so readily. In that sense it will be harder

Gurkhas aside Mick, this is the part I don't necessarily agree with.

We may not get 14 points off the big four, but we might.  And in fact I can see things being so tight this season that you probably won't even have to get 14 points to win the 'mini-league' of the top four.

I also don't see how you can confidently predict that United won't start badly.  They have more adapting to do than most, given that Ferguson has admitted they'll probably go back to 4-4-2 from their 4-3-3 which was used to accomodate Ronaldo. 

Don't underestimate how big a player he was for them.  It's like us losing Torres or Chelsea losing Drogba - ie the main goal threat.  It won't just have an effect on their open play, but free kicks too (winning them and taking them).  I don't buy into Owen being a big player for them and I certainly don't think Valencia can fill Ronaldo's shoes.  Giggs, Van der Sar and Scholes are another year older.  They're there for the taking this season without a doubt.  Chelsea could well be a bigger threat if Drogba stays fit, but in all likelihood United will still be the team to beat.

Taking into account all that and the fact that our two star men were plagued with injuries last season and only started something like 17/18 league games together out of 38, then if last season was a 'golden chance' we must be a bloody cert this year

[account deleted by request]

Some interesting rewriting of history going on anyway.

At the end of September we were 2nd in the league on 14 points, the mancs were 11th in the league on 8 points (with a game in hand)

At the end of October we were top of the league on 26points, the mancs were 6th on 18points (still with a game in hand)

At the end of November we were top = in the league on 33 points with Chelsea(we had a game in hand), the mancs were on 28 points (also with a game in hand on Chelsea)

Bythe end of December we were still top on 45 points, the mancs back in third on 38 points

By the end of January we were third on 48points, the mancs were top on 53 points.........and although we chased hard it was pretty much game over at this point

[heimdall]

Yeah it was January that destoryed our season, with the Keane fiasco and Rafa's rant, it was until mid February that we stabilised and kicked on and thanks good ness we did becuase we were really in freefall in January.

[JoeTerp]

Taking into account all that and the fact that our two star men were plagued with injuries last season and only started something like 17/18 league games together out of 38, then if last season was a 'golden chance' we must be a bloody cert this year

the actual number was 14. Only 14 times did our two best players play together, surely you would expect that number to be much higher this time round.  My MINIMUM expectation would be 28 (allowing each player to miss 5 games), which is double what it was last year

[bigmick]

And then the previous season Torres and Gerrard were fit for most of it, Torres scored a goal each time he kicked the ball, and yet we were out of it by October. It just goes to show that there are a multitude of factors which come into play. I think it's interesting to hear Rafa talking of the need to be "perfect" if we are to win the title. That may be going a bit far because nobody manages perfect for long, but fairly obviously you can't afford too may of the self inflicted bullet holes in your instep which we have suffered from at times.

Matches such as Spurs Away last season are setbacks you simply have to put up with, and we'll get similar ones this season for sure (perhaps more of them who knows). In that game, it was nobodies fault. We played really well and utterly dominated them, only for a freak turn of circumstance and two late goals to inflict upon us an unlikely defeat. Sh!t happens like that occasionally.

What you can't afford though, is matches such as Wigan Away, and Arsenal Away. At Wigan we were in control until a stupidly given away penalty with 10 minutes left brought them level. Then though, as the penalty is hitting the back of the net we take off BOTH Torres and Gerrard, and in so doing significantly reduce our chances of winning the match. At Arsenal, we are 1-1 and then Fabregas their best player gets carried off, while Adebayor their best striker is unluckily sent off. From that point on, as at Wigan we protect the point rather than going in for the kill. You simply cannot afford such mistakes, nor ones where you put Martin Skyrtel at right back with prediuctably catestrophic results. Drawing silly games at Home happens to all teams occasionally, but you simply cannot afford to increase the chances of it happening by playing two midfielders in holding positions against the likes of Stoke. You don't need to be perfect, but you do need to cut out ridiculous errors from our side.

You'll have to cope with the odd ridiculous refereeing decision along the way, but stuff you can impact upon you have to nearly always get right.

[Lando_Griffin]

nope ill go with Mick on this one.... was a golden opportunity for us and we truly fcked it up in style ... were looking somewhat comfortable until we started fcking things up for ourselves rather than others stepping up... the keane thing, the rafa "facts" conference, then of course everything else on the pitch... until it was too late, then we decided maybe a change of plans could be a better idea...
as things stand, im glad we realized (however late that might have been) that the way things were done was never going to win us the league...
Chelsea fcked up their season with Scolari, then his sacking and all that while having some of their best players (Joe Cole, Essien and Drogba) out for most of the season... Arsenal similarly struggled with injuries (RVP. Walcott, Eduardo, Rosicky, Fabregas...etc) and that coupled with a lack of experience in their side meant they struggled to get off to a good start... after January they brought in Arshavin and Fabregas (amongst others) came back from injury later on and their side looked a whole lot better towards the end of the season... Ofcourse, ManCity werent even in the equation last season....

If Ancelotti is any good with Chelsea it will be interesting to see how we match up with them this season... same with Arsenal now that they seemingly have everyone back... Afterall, i would'nt personally dismiss an attacking side that has Walcott, Nasri, RVP, Arshavin, Fabregas playing in their ranks...

I really wish you would just go and ------- ---- yourself with a big ---- off -----, ------- yourself and leaving your stinking -------- rotting on the floor.

But I don't hold my breath.

So, to prevent a total breakdown in the stability of the Universe, and to maintain the status quo of this forum, kindly go and ---- yourself instead.

[bigmick]

Ace has done what he's done a couple of times before here, ostensibly agreed with me and then paraphrased me into saying something I wasn't quite saying Kind of "I agree with Mick, Rafa's a c... and shouldn't be running a pub team" which is not really what I've ever said.

I don't FWIW believe that we "well and truly fecked it up big style" or at least that's not the words I'd have used. I have though been saying for a while that I was concerned by some of Rafa's rhetoric visa vis the drawn games, and I think it's a pity that we had to have such a graphic demonstration that they DO count against you, and that YOU CAN as good as lose the title in November before we really believed it. I remember in the past Rafa talking about how he won the title at Valencia despite drawing stacks of matches, but the simple reality is that in England over the last decade you need to WIN consistently, not draw and and avoid defeat at all costs.

Owzat taught us that with his "27 wins" theories. If you bothered to read his posts his case on that score was absolutely watertight, and our performances in the middle of last season are confirmation if it was needed that Rafa doesn't read these boards, or at least not Owzats posts anyway  .

FWIW I think our slightly stand backish attitude was much more significant than the "rant", which although coming immediately before the bliiiiiiiip which cost us the title wasn't so significant I don't think. It was like we seemed to get it with a vengence around February, when suddently we went from a slightly defensive mindset to attacking like absolute lunatics. We can probably afford to tone it down a tad I reckon and still win heaps of matches. That's what we'll need to do though, win, win and win again.