Liverpool FC Forum

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:47 am

J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:you worry too much mate, it was a friendly and the points raised will be gone over before the next game, now go have a beer.

obviously the points were gone over mate ignored for the leige game :laugh:

by **Number 9** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:52 am

peewee wrote:
J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:you worry too much mate, it was a friendly and the points raised will be gone over before the next game, now go have a beer.

obviously the points were gone over mate ignored for the leige game

In all seriousness though Peewee,i know you like to bang on about Rafa which is your opinion and thats OK.But no one can just blame Rafa for last night.Every player that wore the shirt should be ashamed as of course should the manager as well!

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:42 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
The amount of aimless punts and lack of intelligence

Your talking about Sami right ?

Stu I refer you to me previous posts, as you keep debating the same old s.hit with me.

You're opinion is never wrong is it.

One word.

PENNANT

Look, not bein funny lad, you don't go to games. Sami Hyypia goes long when he has no other option because he doesn't want to get caught on the ball. When the pass is there to be played, he plays it. He's not faultless, he does sometimes play long hopeful punts, all centre halfs do but he doesn't do it half as much as Agger or Carragher does, not even close. He's composed and first and foremost is a footballer.

You bang on about me being wrong and right and whatever the :censored:

else, I asked a simple question a few times which you keep avoiding, tell me in what way the two teams I wrote down would perform differently.

What difference does writing it down differently make? I'm still waiting for you to answer that question... You keep avoiding it... I'm interested to know how you think it makes any difference what so ever if you're playing the same players....

And also, whats Pennant got to do with anything? He's a hell of a lot better than Kuyt for a start... Again though you completely fail to understand the game. How can a winger who's strengths are crossing and linking up with a full back thrive when he has a :censored:

full back behind him and two strikers who don't attack crosses? How do you expect a fairly limited player to adapt to those sort of circumstances... its like putting Owen upfront then hoofing high balls to him.

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:06 am

Number 9 wrote:
peewee wrote:
J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:you worry too much mate, it was a friendly and the points raised will be gone over before the next game, now go have a beer.

obviously the points were gone over mate ignored for the leige game

In all seriousness though Peewee,i know you like to bang on about Rafa which is your opinion and thats OK.But no one can just blame Rafa for last night.Every player that wore the shirt should be ashamed as of course should the manager as well!

i agree mate, the players also need to shoulder the blame, unless it was the mangers tactics that led to the performance, however i am sure it wasnt rafas instructions to alonso to hoof every ball into the stands etc.

ultimately though barry its rafas selections that baffle me, lets hope we see a steady team this season without stupid changes, if we see steady selection and still perform badly then the fault lays with rafa, this is now his squad, mostly his signings and always his selection and tactics

by **LegBarnes** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:02 am

Fo Dne wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
The main difference for me last season was moving Kuyt away from the centre and asking Gerrard to support Torres. There was no "real" change of formation, just a change of players

No there was S@int. We went from having two men upfront, to having one man upfront. Then three played behind the lone striker with two holding midfielders behind them. Now I certainly dont have my UEFA badges but I'd call that a change of formation.

I've seen teams start with three strikers upfront and three midfielders behind them, 4-3-3 and an opposing team play a 3-5-2. The team who played the 4-3-3 got absolutely mullard down the flanks, there was no cover for the fullbacks and their midfield was stretched. Suffice to say the manager who was two down at half time, brought off a striker and put an extra midfielder on )4-4-2(. They faired a little better in the second half and were better able to cope with the oppos wing backs because they had wide midfielders, the lost 2-1 but still. Oh by the way that team that lost 2-1 was my local pub team

Formations and personel can change games and make the outcomes different certainly, and I'd say Managers like Rafa and Mouriniho would agree .... at a guess.

Of course it can, but you're missing the point completely... You disagreed with me "team selection" simply because of the way I wrote it down, you didn't state any other reason, you stated, Mascherano and Alonso would not work in a midfield four, or something along those lines....

This:

Torres Keane
Barry Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Is another way of writing this:

Torres
Barry Keane Gerrard
Alonso Mascherano
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

For you to try and say that will make the team play in a completely different style and way is rediculous. Which is effectively what you said.

good plan but fact we are not getting barry its complete waste of time.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:14 am

It was the change in tactics and team set up.

Formations a lay out on a peice of paper for gots sake. Especially when ya talking about a 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, etc etc etc.

Do you really think it makes any difference to the way you play if you write it down like this:

Torres Keane
Barry Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Or like this:

Torres
Barry Keane Gerrard
Alonso Mascherano
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Am sorry, but if you think that makes the team play differently then ya chattin complete and utter rubbish.
Back to top

If Rafa or any other manager asked his players to set out in either formations you've said they'd be a difference on the field. The players will play where the manager asks them to, otherwise what would be the point of formations ?

So upfront in the 442 one you've put up, Keane would play alongside Torres they'd play as a pairing, each maybe running the channels and playing off eachother.

Then you'd have a midfield quartet across the middle with the wide men doing the aurthordox job a wide player does, get and support the team when moving forward and whip in some crosses and cut in every now and then. While also when needed getting back and supporting the fullback when under pressure. So in all doing what an aurthordox wide man does.

In the center, and from my point of view you'd have 1 box to box midfielder i.e Gerrard and a holding mid i.e Mascha. The central midfielder, Gerrard for example would do excatly the same as the wide players do in the same formation. Move up with play and support Torres and Keane, and trackback and help out the defence wjen under pressure. Mascha simply would hold the fort and break up attacks like any DM would do.

That there is the reason why Xabi and Mascha wouldnt work in the middle, neither help out enough going forward and to be frank its negative. Its a negative set up, that pairing constricts any meanigful forward moving momentum and lung busting runs from Central midfield which is what is needed from one of those two in that position alas neither do this.

In the 4-2-3-1 formation Torres is a lone striker with three players behind him in support. Now IMO both the wider players of the three dont need to do the aurthdox job a wide man has to do in a 442. Its my opinion that the onus on say Gerrard and Barry as per your layout is more on attacking and supporting that lone striker. They dont have to be as defensively aware as they have the re-assurance of TWO holding midfielders behind them. If thats not the case and I'm totally wide of the mark in saying this, that both Barry and Gerrard dont have to be so defensive minded in this formation, then I'd question the point of having TWO HOLDING midfielders. But because I think I'm right both Mascha nad Alonso give the three players ahead of them more license and freedom to roam further upfield without having to worry so much about getting back and helping the fullback.

Bascially there is a difference and if a manager asked his players to play in either of the ways you've written out they would.

Another example, Chelseas famous diamond shape midfield a couple of seasons back was played exactly as that ..... A diamond, with Lampard spearing that diamond and Makelalee screening the back four. Inevitably its a four man midfield but when used under Mouriniho it became strictly a diamond shape, not a flat quartet.

All in all Stu players play to the instructions there given, and formations come under that too. Dont try and write the importance of tha off just because you've now got a "UEFA" badge.

And by the way, Pennant IS and NEVER will be Good enough for LFC.

by **Fo Dne** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:35 pm

Complete lack of understanding in the game both in terms of playing experience and coaching experience.

Simple as that.

You can instruct players to do all you want, but the fact is they do on the pitch what they feel more comfortable doing. Instinct will ALWAYS take over, they use the instructions and tactical plays only as a base, nothing more.

Putting Gerrard on the right side of a three infront of a two or a flat four won't make the slightest bit of difference in the way he plays. Putting Keane behind Torres on a peice of paper again won't make the slightest bit of difference to how he plays and its quite laughable that you actually think it would.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:39 pm

Complete lack of understanding in the game both in terms of playing experience and coaching experience.

Listen to it.

Putting Gerrard on the right side of a three infront of a two or a flat four won't make the slightest bit of difference in the way he plays. Putting Keane behind Torres on a peice of paper again won't make the slightest bit of difference to how he plays and its quite laughable that you actually think it would.

Einstein where did I ever say it would make a particular player play any different ?

Never did I say playing Keane behind Torres will make him play any different. But he'll be more difficult to pick up and mark by defenders, its about positioning not necessarily about individual talent.

Formations are a tactical part of the game and your complete lack of understanding in this is quite laughable as you apparently have a "UEFA" badge. Of course formations dont change how an individual player plays, but it can and does change how a TEAM plays. I never said that so dont bother twisting my words, what formations do is give opposing teams food for thought of who to pick and mark when and where. Formations can work to your advantage say if you want to to attack a team, or play more defensive.

I cant believe i'm explaining the fundamentals of formations to the most knowledgable bloke the footballing world has ever see.

by **Fo Dne** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:02 pm

Whatever!!

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:12 pm

Fo Dne wrote:

Whatever!!

Exactly Stu.

You carry on living in your little world where we need Dean Ashton, Woodgate, and Pennant. And by the same token play down completely the relavance of formations on a football field. :no

Shocking !!

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:01 am

You're the one going on about the team playing differently because I wrote it down differently which is complete and utter :censored:

I might add.

As for Gerrard and Mascherano in the middle, am sorry, but they proved last season when they play we never gain control of a game and the midfield becomes compeletely flat and void of idea's, just as it did when Hamann and Gerrard played in the midfield and Lampard and Gerrard do for England.

It doesn't work, the technical ability and brains aren't there in the combination and both are too sloppy in choice of pass. The lack of creative intelligence and discipline in choice of pass and positional sence is also lacking as was shown in many games last season, Spurs at home being the main example I can think of were both players done absoloutely :censored:

all for 80 minutes apart from stroll round and get bossed off the pitch by Zakora.

Steven Gerrard's best position is on the right hand side of midfield or in central midfield with a player like Paul Scholes or Fabregas giving him defensive responsibility.

End of.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:37 am

Fo Dne wrote:You're the one going on about the team playing differently because I wrote it down differently which is complete and utter I might add.

As for Gerrard and Mascherano in the middle, am sorry, but they proved last season when they play we never gain control of a game and the midfield becomes compeletely flat and void of idea's, just as it did when Hamann and Gerrard played in the midfield and Lampard and Gerrard do for England.

It doesn't work, the technical ability and brains aren't there in the combination and both are too sloppy in choice of pass. The lack of creative intelligence and discipline in choice of pass and positional sence is also lacking as was shown in many games last season, Spurs at home being the main example I can think of were both players done absoloutely all for 80 minutes apart from stroll round and get bossed off the pitch by Zakora.

Steven Gerrard's best position is on the right hand side of midfield or in central midfield with a player like Paul Scholes or Fabregas giving him defensive responsibility.

End of.

So after saying all that, you'd rather Mascha and Alosno in the middle. Re-read what you just wrote about lacking creativity in the middle of the park.

You're the one going on about the team playing differently because I wrote it down differently which is complete and utter I might add.

I think you know its not.

If we started with three center halves on Saturday wouldnt that change the approach in which the team play. Or would we still play like we have four at the back ?

by **Effes** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:30 am

This lad's threads are all the same.

Starts a topic off, and then comes back and tells everyone what an idiot they are.

A feckin Black Widow! And a narcissistic one at that!

by **Effes** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:31 am

I must be the first person to use "narcissistic" on here

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:58 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:You're the one going on about the team playing differently because I wrote it down differently which is complete and utter I might add.

As for Gerrard and Mascherano in the middle, am sorry, but they proved last season when they play we never gain control of a game and the midfield becomes compeletely flat and void of idea's, just as it did when Hamann and Gerrard played in the midfield and Lampard and Gerrard do for England.

It doesn't work, the technical ability and brains aren't there in the combination and both are too sloppy in choice of pass. The lack of creative intelligence and discipline in choice of pass and positional sence is also lacking as was shown in many games last season, Spurs at home being the main example I can think of were both players done absoloutely all for 80 minutes apart from stroll round and get bossed off the pitch by Zakora.

Steven Gerrard's best position is on the right hand side of midfield or in central midfield with a player like Paul Scholes or Fabregas giving him defensive responsibility.

End of.

So after saying all that, you'd rather Mascha and Alosno in the middle. Re-read what you just wrote about lacking creativity in the middle of the park.

You're the one going on about the team playing differently because I wrote it down differently which is complete and utter I might add.

I think you know its not.

If we started with three center halves on Saturday wouldnt that change the approach in which the team play. Or would we still play like we have four at the back ?

You picked fault with me saying Mascherano and Alonso playing in a front six as a pair of centre mids... you then said if it was a 4-2-3-1 instead of a 4-4-2 (which is pretty much the same depending on players used) it would work.

As for Alonso and Mascherano being a better pairing than Gerrard and Mascherano, all day long without a doubt in my mind.

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