Liverpool FC Forum

[Number 9]

Sabre I am not saying they are poor players.Just that i feel if we play a 4-4-2 there will not be enough creation between Alonso and Masch and our CM will be too defensive as a result.If Alonso can play the way he used to by all means it would be worth a shot,but he has not showed that form in a while and does not threaten teams the way he used to!
If we are to play a 4-2-3-1 i would go with Alonso and Masch in front of the back 4 all day long and everyday.I'm sure this would protect our defence and minimise the weaknesses that some have highlighted as a worry.
Basically IMO I feel that if we are to play 4-4-2 we need an attacking midfielder in the middle alongside a defensive one or our threat from the centre of the park will not be enough.

I know you're not saying they're not quality, I know what I've quoted is not your whole view -- you've posted on the matter more times --, I know all that Barry, don't worry.

When I say the turn off the lights and go to the beach thingy is a way to say in a inflated way, that with that reputation, it's only foolish to say "no fúcking way" to give that pairing some of the continuity Bigmick uses to ask. Mascherano Gerrard could be another option, but for me the strongest option is to have both Gerrard-Mascherano-Alonso on the pitch with Keane and Torres upfront, Keane behind Torres. The panorama would be different if we had someone world class for the right, in that case I'd find the Mascherano-Gerrard option unavoidable. But since we're not in that case, the only way to have a world class player in the right is to use Gerrard there.


In a nutshell, Not considering (Mascherano-Alonso) pairing one of the two best available before hand is not right IMHO -- the other strongest one would be Mascherano-Gerrard. I don't think Mascherano-Lucas or Mascherano-Plessis is stronger.

Demanding the best of performances when they're used there is right, if you see what I mean, I have no problems with you wanting a better Alonso than the one of the last two seasons, we all know he could have done better. Hopefully this season he won't have a long injury and we'll see some improvement.

I understand mate!
To accomodate all our "best players" if all fit and available I think we have to use 4-2-3-1.
of course this means Alonso and Masch will both be on the park but there will be 4 players in front of them as opposed to two giving us more options in attack.
We struggled to open teams up last term and had too many draws,i fear this will be the same again if we had them together in the centre of a 4-4-2.

[Fo Dne]

Yeah totally...

4-4-2 wouldn't work with Keane, Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso in but "4-2-3-1-2-3-5-7-3-5-6-1" would.



Formations are a layout on paper for christs sake. Nothing more and players certainly don't stick to that layout without having flexability.

Tell you what...

How about...

                  Torres
  Barry         Keane        Gerrard
            Alonso   Mascherano
Dossena  Agger    Carragher  Finnan
                  Reina...

That any better?

Deary me!

[Igor Zidane]

Yeah totally...

4-4-2 wouldn't work with Keane, Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso in but "4-2-3-1-2-3-5-7-3-5-6-1" would.



Formations are a layout on paper for christs sake. Nothing more and players certainly don't stick to that layout without having flexability.

Tell you what...

How about...

                  Torres
  Barry         Keane        Gerrard
            Alonso   Mascherano
Dossena  Agger    Carragher  Finnan
                  Reina...

That any better?

Deary me!

Stu ,you want decent discussion , but then you come up with a post like that   Your just strangeling it with  condescending posts like this.

I'll tell you what , your right everyone else is wrong .

Now lock the thread please mods.

[Fo Dne]

People are chatting what do you expect?

4-4-2/4-2-3-1

Whatever the numbers its 11 players and putting them in a SLIGHTLY different position on a peice of paper makes all difference on a pitch.

[maypaxvobiscum]

ok i feel Stu has a point as during the match they can change their formations. no need to grumble. dont want your pacemaker to explode

[Sabre]

Yeah totally...

4-4-2 wouldn't work with Keane, Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso in but "4-2-3-1-2-3-5-7-3-5-6-1" would.



Formations are a layout on paper for christs sake. Nothing more and players certainly don't stick to that layout without having flexability.

Tell you what...

How about...

                  Torres
  Barry         Keane        Gerrard
            Alonso   Mascherano
Dossena  Agger    Carragher  Finnan
                  Reina...

That any better?

Deary me!

Stu ,you want decent discussion , but then you come up with a post like that   Your just strangeling it with  condescending posts like this.

I'll tell you what , your right everyone else is wrong .

Now lock the thread please mods.

Igor mate, to be perfectly honest at worse he's a bit sarcastic, but he has never called us cúnts!

plus, he's a bit right to be sarcastic. If a happy clappy like me says again that "we're gonna win the league" I find only right that someone makes a comment that forces me to explain, as I was thinking so the last season and the season before. I wasn't offended by that comment.

As for our too much importance to initial formations... in which we make nice shapes like , Wedges, Arrows, sometimes we put someone on front of another mate, sometimes we put them 5 in a row on paper!!.... that perfect formations only last until whistle starts. A 4-4-2, soon becomes a 6-3-1 if you're being swept out of the stadium! So I think that comment is not OTT, perhaps he's a bit condescending but I stil think he's not abusive --even if the first "condescending" comment was aimed to those of us who won't see major problems in the defence like me.

It's not that a bad thread! 

[account deleted by request]

TBH I think Stu makes a fair point...... at least about the difference between 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 anyway. Its the player that plays behind/with the striker that makes the difference not the formation. Play Kuyt there and he will play deep, offer no goal threat and work hard. Play Gerrard there and he will make great runs, score goals and get plenty assists. Play Keane there and it suddenly becomes accepted its a  4-4-2. Yet Keane will drop deep, go wide, work the channels, swop positions etc etc

I do think that 3-5-2 and some of the more "elaborate" formations actually do make a difference, but at the end of the day 9 times out of 10 if you have the better 11 players on the pitch with a reasonable formation, they will win........no matter what "clever" formation the opposition put out.

Players are not machines working only to strict instructions, the better the player and the more often they will instinctively do the right thing. Players also go where they feel most comfortable..... ask Gerrard to play wide and he will drift inside...... ask Kuyt to play striker and he will still drop back into midfield.

A formation should be adapted to getting the best out of the players natural inclinations, not the players adapted to getting the best out of a formation.

[JC_81]

Stu's right about the centre backs by the way.  Agger and Carragher certainly aren't dominant in the air, never have been and never will.  Skrtel certainly isn't as dominant as Hyypia was (or is), but he's certainly more willing to attack the ball in the air than Carragher/Agger.  IMO Skrtel should play with one of those two.  Carragher is the better of the two at the moment.

In fact I have a feeling we will see Carragher deployed at right back a fair bit this season.  Not saying I agree with it, but I don't like the look of this Degen, and Finnan or Arbeloa may yet leave, so we have a potential weakness there imo.  We will see as the season unfolds.

Overall, we can argue about formations all day, but I still don't think we have bought well enough this summer to win the title.  Keane is a quality player, Dossena may well be an improvement on the left backs we already have.  None of the other players we have signed will improve the first XI in the short term.  We still haven't added the quality we need in the wide positions.  Call me pessimistic, I think it's being realistic.

[Scottbot]

but at the end of the day 9 times out of 10 if you have the better 11 players on the pitch with a reasonable formation, they will win........no matter what "clever" formation the opposition put out.

Spot on. We've all played too much Champ Man. Fans LOVE to ramble on about formations (myself included) but it's always about the players. You only have to look at the mancs over the past 15 years. Has their success got anything to do with the formation they use? Or is it down to having great players who play uninhibited attacking football?

[neil]

I'm not worried by any pre-season game, last year we were beaten like 5-0 by some kraut outfit, it means zip

[Rush Job]

I'm not worried by any pre-season game, last year we were beaten like 5-0 by some kraut outfit, it means zip

What he said.

[Scottbot]

I'm not worried by any pre-season game, last year we were beaten like 5-0 by some kraut outfit, it means zip

That 5 nil drubbing set off a load of alarm bells for me + it was one of several poor pre-season games/results. I seem to recall we followed it up with a terrible start to the 2006-07 season so maybe it means a little bit more than zip?

[66-1112520797]

Ah well I must be in the minority then, as I think its still pretty important in a game of football to have the right formation.

I dont think Rafa would be so blarzay about them neither considering the way he likes his teams pretty much well drilled, with every man in that team knowing exactly what his job and position is on a football field.

You can think formations mean neesh, but incidently a change in formation last season got us out of a bliiiiiiiiiiip. And turned the last part of our season round.

Back to the defence, JC pretty much sums it up well about our aerial ability at the back. And I do find it quite odd for a fairly tall guy like Agger not to impose himself in the air at the back. There maybe a slight weakness there as it could cost us dearly at some point next season. But thats going to have to be addressed on the training field and not the transfer market.

[109-1218458338]

personally i think one game means nothing, add the whole preseason together and you get a picture you can use to predict from.

understnading the following:

1. early games mean little due to euro 2008.

2. fitness is improving through the preseason.

3.opposition is widely variyng.

taking all this into account we were unbeaten and defensively sound and clearly torres and alonso have made big differences to our goal scoring.

my prediction iis if torres and gerrard stay fit we'll score a lot of goals, otherwise will be blunt. defensively we're sound, this will be a good base but whether we can get to the top i don't know.

[Fo Dne]

Ah well I must be in the minority then, as I think its still pretty important in a game of football to have the right formation.

I dont think Rafa would be so blarzay about them neither considering the way he likes his teams pretty much well drilled, with every man in that team knowing exactly what his job and position is on a football field.

You can think formations mean neesh, but incidently a change in formation last season got us out of a bliiiiiiiiiiip. And turned the last part of our season round.

Back to the defence, JC pretty much sums it up well about our aerial ability at the back. And I do find it quite odd for a fairly tall guy like Agger not to impose himself in the air at the back. There maybe a slight weakness there as it could cost us dearly at some point next season. But thats going to have to be addressed on the training field and not the transfer market.

It was the change in tactics and team set up.

Formations a lay out on a peice of paper for gots sake. Especially when ya talking about a 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, etc etc etc.

Do you really think it makes any difference to the way you play if you write it down like this:

             Torres     Keane
Barry      Alonso  Mascherano   Gerrard
Dossena  Agger    Carragher     Finnan
                    Reina

Or like this:

                  Torres
Barry          Keane             Gerrard
             Alonso  Mascherano
Dossena  Agger   Carragher    Finnan
                   Reina

Am sorry, but if you think that makes the team play differently then ya chattin complete and utter rubbish.