Liverpool FC Forum

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:15 pm

moreinjuredthanowen wrote:personally i think one game means nothing, add the whole preseason together and you get a picture you can use to predict from.

understnading the following:

1. early games mean little due to euro 2008.

2. fitness is improving through the preseason.

3.opposition is widely variyng.

taking all this into account we were unbeaten and defensively sound and clearly torres and alonso have made big differences to our goal scoring.

my prediction iis if torres and gerrard stay fit we'll score a lot of goals, otherwise will be blunt. defensively we're sound, this will be a good base but whether we can get to the top i don't know.

Theres very little wrong with the midfield and forwards.

Aslong as Gerrard, Torres, Keane, Mascherno and Alonso are playing we're pretty much sorted in midfield and attack.

Reina's excellent.

And you say the defence is good aswell?

Well we've got nothing to worry about then have we and we'll win the league easily.

If the defence was good enough this would be one hell of a team, but the fact is its not. Not one or our defenders would get into any other of the top four sides. Enough said.

by **LFC3409** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:28 pm

What worried me was lack of a decent winger to get a good cross in the box for Torres or Keane to get their heads on, other than that I thought we looked fairly all right considering it was pre-season.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:28 pm

LFC3409 wrote:What worried me was lack of a decent winger to get a good cross in the box for Torres or Keane to get their heads on, other than that I thought we looked fairly all right considering it was pre-season.

Yeah because Torres and Keane both thrive off that kind of service. :laugh:

by **LegBarnes** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:09 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
LFC3409 wrote:What worried me was lack of a decent winger to get a good cross in the box for Torres or Keane to get their heads on, other than that I thought we looked fairly all right considering it was pre-season.

Yeah because Torres and Keane both thrive off that kind of service.

Torres does but he isn't going to be able to show it since we get around 1 good cross in a game and that is :censored:

.

Keane and heading the ball is not some thing to put in same sentence opps i just did Doh !

by **RedBlood** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:58 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:Ah well I must be in the minority then, as I think its still pretty important in a game of football to have the right formation.

I dont think Rafa would be so blarzay about them neither considering the way he likes his teams pretty much well drilled, with every man in that team knowing exactly what his job and position is on a football field.

You can think formations mean neesh, but incidently a change in formation last season got us out of a bliiiiiiiiiiip. And turned the last part of our season round.

Back to the defence, JC pretty much sums it up well about our aerial ability at the back. And I do find it quite odd for a fairly tall guy like Agger not to impose himself in the air at the back. There maybe a slight weakness there as it could cost us dearly at some point next season. But thats going to have to be addressed on the training field and not the transfer market.

It was the change in tactics and team set up.

Formations a lay out on a peice of paper for gots sake. Especially when ya talking about a 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, etc etc etc.

Do you really think it makes any difference to the way you play if you write it down like this:

Torres Keane
Barry Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Or like this:

Torres
Barry Keane Gerrard
Alonso Mascherano
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Am sorry, but if you think that makes the team play differently then ya chattin complete and utter rubbish.

no, no difference atall i mean do you think it makes a difference if the team is set out like this

Torres Keane
Barry Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

or like this

Torres Keane
Barry
Alonso
Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena
Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

im sure theyd play the same way

theres a little more 2 formations then where u put ur players on a piece of paper u ignorant tit

by **Fo Dne** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:02 am

RedBlood wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:Ah well I must be in the minority then, as I think its still pretty important in a game of football to have the right formation.

I dont think Rafa would be so blarzay about them neither considering the way he likes his teams pretty much well drilled, with every man in that team knowing exactly what his job and position is on a football field.

You can think formations mean neesh, but incidently a change in formation last season got us out of a bliiiiiiiiiiip. And turned the last part of our season round.

Back to the defence, JC pretty much sums it up well about our aerial ability at the back. And I do find it quite odd for a fairly tall guy like Agger not to impose himself in the air at the back. There maybe a slight weakness there as it could cost us dearly at some point next season. But thats going to have to be addressed on the training field and not the transfer market.

It was the change in tactics and team set up.

Formations a lay out on a peice of paper for gots sake. Especially when ya talking about a 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, etc etc etc.

Do you really think it makes any difference to the way you play if you write it down like this:

Torres Keane
Barry Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Or like this:

Torres
Barry Keane Gerrard
Alonso Mascherano
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Am sorry, but if you think that makes the team play differently then ya chattin complete and utter rubbish.

no, no difference atall i mean do you think it makes a difference if the team is set out like this

Torres Keane
Barry Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

or like this

Torres Keane
Barry
Alonso
Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena
Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

im sure theyd play the same way

theres a little more 2 formations then where u put ur players on a piece of paper u ignorant tit

Mong of the season there....

:laugh:

by **Rush Job** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:34 am

There might not be much if any difference between a 4 4 2 and a 4 2 3 1 once the whistle blows but there is a fair amont of difference when you start getting into 4 3 3 or 3 5 2 or even the 2 3 5 they played years ago when you were a boy

For a start the way you tactically defend with 3 at the back is different to how you would with 4 for instance you wouldnt set up flat and look to play offside as much if at all and it can also be played with a sweeper whitch is about as far as you can get from a flat back 4. I know what your saying, it comes down to the players and i agree but you also need to find the system that will get most out off them its no use putting square pegs in round holes, like Crouch wide left of a forward 3. Mate if i havent understood your point please dont flame me.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:55 am

Fo Dne wrote:
RedBlood wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:Ah well I must be in the minority then, as I think its still pretty important in a game of football to have the right formation.

I dont think Rafa would be so blarzay about them neither considering the way he likes his teams pretty much well drilled, with every man in that team knowing exactly what his job and position is on a football field.

You can think formations mean neesh, but incidently a change in formation last season got us out of a bliiiiiiiiiiip. And turned the last part of our season round.

Back to the defence, JC pretty much sums it up well about our aerial ability at the back. And I do find it quite odd for a fairly tall guy like Agger not to impose himself in the air at the back. There maybe a slight weakness there as it could cost us dearly at some point next season. But thats going to have to be addressed on the training field and not the transfer market.

It was the change in tactics and team set up.

Formations a lay out on a peice of paper for gots sake. Especially when ya talking about a 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, etc etc etc.

Do you really think it makes any difference to the way you play if you write it down like this:

Torres Keane
Barry Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Or like this:

Torres
Barry Keane Gerrard
Alonso Mascherano
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Am sorry, but if you think that makes the team play differently then ya chattin complete and utter rubbish.

no, no difference atall i mean do you think it makes a difference if the team is set out like this

Torres Keane
Barry Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

or like this

Torres Keane
Barry
Alonso
Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena
Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

im sure theyd play the same way

theres a little more 2 formations then where u put ur players on a piece of paper u ignorant tit

Mong of the season there....

Have to agree with him though, you "ignorant tit" :laugh:

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:53 am

The main difference for me last season was moving Kuyt away from the centre and asking Gerrard to support Torres. There was no "real" change of formation, just a change of players :-
Torres

Kuyt
Babel Macherano Gerrard Pennant/Benayoun

Became in effect :-
Torres

Gerrard
Babel Mascherano Alonso Kuyt

Hardly a major change of formation, but an important change of players positions and responsibilities.

by **Toffeehater** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:01 am

Bamaga man wrote:Ah well I must be in the minority then, as I think its still pretty important in a game of football to have the right formation.

I dont think Rafa would be so blarzay about them neither considering the way he likes his teams pretty much well drilled, with every man in that team knowing exactly what his job and position is on a football field.

You can think formations mean neesh, but incidently a change in formation last season got us out of a bliiiiiiiiiiip. And turned the last part of our season round.

Back to the defence, JC pretty much sums it up well about our aerial ability at the back. And I do find it quite odd for a fairly tall guy like Agger not to impose himself in the air at the back. There maybe a slight weakness there as it could cost us dearly at some point next season. But thats going to have to be addressed on the training field and not the transfer market.

, i think you're right , teams playing high balls and long balls are going to be a problem for us , especially since reina is the strongest at crosses and also , our defence is not that strong in the air , as opposed to the hypia and carragher partnership but i think this is our strongest defence we have had for years. Since we do not have a world class right back , but a stop gap . I'd rather we play carragher on the right and both youngsters agger and skrtel in the middle with dossena on the left and arbeloa and finnan as cover

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:14 pm

The main difference for me last season was moving Kuyt away from the centre and asking Gerrard to support Torres. There was no "real" change of formation, just a change of players

No there was S@int. We went from having two men upfront, to having one man upfront. Then three played behind the lone striker with two holding midfielders behind them. Now I certainly dont have my UEFA badges but I'd call that a change of formation.

I've seen teams start with three strikers upfront and three midfielders behind them, 4-3-3 and an opposing team play a 3-5-2. The team who played the 4-3-3 got absolutely mullard down the flanks, there was no cover for the fullbacks and their midfield was stretched. Suffice to say the manager who was two down at half time, brought off a striker and put an extra midfielder on )4-4-2(. They faired a little better in the second half and were better able to cope with the oppos wing backs because they had wide midfielders, the lost 2-1 but still. Oh by the way that team that lost 2-1 was my local pub team

Formations and personel can change games and make the outcomes different certainly, and I'd say Managers like Rafa and Mouriniho would agree .... at a guess.

by **Fo Dne** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:55 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
The main difference for me last season was moving Kuyt away from the centre and asking Gerrard to support Torres. There was no "real" change of formation, just a change of players

No there was S@int. We went from having two men upfront, to having one man upfront. Then three played behind the lone striker with two holding midfielders behind them. Now I certainly dont have my UEFA badges but I'd call that a change of formation.

I've seen teams start with three strikers upfront and three midfielders behind them, 4-3-3 and an opposing team play a 3-5-2. The team who played the 4-3-3 got absolutely mullard down the flanks, there was no cover for the fullbacks and their midfield was stretched. Suffice to say the manager who was two down at half time, brought off a striker and put an extra midfielder on )4-4-2(. They faired a little better in the second half and were better able to cope with the oppos wing backs because they had wide midfielders, the lost 2-1 but still. Oh by the way that team that lost 2-1 was my local pub team

Formations and personel can change games and make the outcomes different certainly, and I'd say Managers like Rafa and Mouriniho would agree .... at a guess.

Of course it can, but you're missing the point completely... You disagreed with me "team selection" simply because of the way I wrote it down, you didn't state any other reason, you stated, Mascherano and Alonso would not work in a midfield four, or something along those lines....

This:

Torres Keane
Barry Alonso Mascherano Gerrard
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

Is another way of writing this:

Torres
Barry Keane Gerrard
Alonso Mascherano
Dossena Agger Carragher Finnan
Reina

For you to try and say that will make the team play in a completely different style and way is rediculous. Which is effectively what you said.

by **Fo Dne** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:57 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
This potentially is the best Liverpool team since we won the title IF we can sign the right players and they are played in the right positions. Gerrard on the right with Mascherano and Alonso in the middle, Keane and Torres upfront

No fecking way Stu.

Pair them together in a 4-2-3-1 By all means, but in a flat four midfield it didnt work especially when we were after three points IMO.

There ya go.

by **Effes** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:27 pm

Hang on - am I missing something here?

When we changed to 4-2-3-1 last season, are form was much better.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
The main difference for me last season was moving Kuyt away from the centre and asking Gerrard to support Torres. There was no "real" change of formation, just a change of players

No there was S@int. We went from having two men upfront, to having one man upfront. Then three played behind the lone striker with two holding midfielders behind them. Now I certainly dont have my UEFA badges but I'd call that a change of formation.

I've seen teams start with three strikers upfront and three midfielders behind them, 4-3-3 and an opposing team play a 3-5-2. The team who played the 4-3-3 got absolutely mullard down the flanks, there was no cover for the fullbacks and their midfield was stretched. Suffice to say the manager who was two down at half time, brought off a striker and put an extra midfielder on )4-4-2(. They faired a little better in the second half and were better able to cope with the oppos wing backs because they had wide midfielders, the lost 2-1 but still. Oh by the way that team that lost 2-1 was my local pub team

Formations and personel can change games and make the outcomes different certainly, and I'd say Managers like Rafa and Mouriniho would agree .... at a guess.

I understand what you are saying mate , but Kuyt never played up front did he? He was always dropping back into midfield, just the same as Gerrard does, SO WE NEVER PLAYED WITH 2 UP unless it was Crouch and Torres. The only difference being that Gerrard has the pace to go forward with and without the ball and link up with Torres from that position, where as Kuyt doesn't.

It also meant that Alonso could come back into the team and form a 2 man defensive midfield with Mascherano that helped to change our season ?............ No mate.

Lucas actually played there more with Mascherano than Alonso did. Lucas is a more box to box player than either Alonso OR Mascherano and while for the "big games" in the CL Rafa went with Alonso and Masch........... in the league (where we had our supposed great change of fortune!) it was Lucas and Masch or Lucas and Alonso.

Kuyt playing on the wing is no more advanced than Pennant was, infact he drops back even deeper and plays more like a wingback than a winger/striker. While Babel plays exactly the way he always has........ no change there.... at least imo.

I agree mate that different formations can play a part but usually with a good side the players adapt to the game, a forward drops back and supports the midfield or a defender steps up and helps out.

Where the real problems occur is when a player or players who arn't good enough, try to take on a different role such as playing Crouch on the wing.

Certainly different formations CAN make a difference 3-5-3 can help a team outman another team in midfield, but only at a cost in other areas, otherwise EVERY TEAM would use it ....... wouldn't they? All formations have advantages and disadvantages, its getting the formation that best suits YOUR PLAYERS thats the key.

I don't honestly believe we actually saw much of a change in formation between the 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 last season, just a better selection of players more suitable to their roles, while when we played 4-3-3 our team selection was p!ss poor both at Newcastle (when we won comfortably) and at Reading (when we lost) with Sissoko (Ncstle)and Crouch(Rding) being asked to play in positions and roles that they just wern't up to playing.

Look at the team that played against Derby when we won 6-0 very early in the season (So early we were top of the table!):-

Reina

Finnan Hyypia Agger Arbeloa

Pennant Alonso Mascherano Babel
Kuyt

Torres
THEN LOOK AT THE FAMOUS 4-2-3-1

Reina

Finnan Hyypia Agger Arbeloa

Kuyt Alonso Mascherano Babel
Gerrard

Torres

The only difference between the two, is that Pennant has been dropped, Kuyt moved out to the wing and Gerrard has returned to fitness. (He was injured for the Derby game)

Whether you write it down as 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 makes no difference mate, its the roles they play and the ability of the player that makes the difference.

I ignored the defensive changes to illustrate my point.

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