Liverpool FC Forum

by **Judge** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:26 pm

JoeTerp wrote:I know we might not even bid for him, but it applies to Liverpool in general going after another top class forward. Would it be like buying an HD DVD player without having an HD TV or an HD satellite package?

If we buy another striker in the Villa mold, he would HAVE to start alongside Torres, meaning a 4-4-2 (unless we switchted to a 5-3-2 or 3-5-2) Do we really have the players to play a 4-4-2 at the moment? Especially if you are in the camp of Gerrard must be played in the middle he is the captain that is where he belongs that is his best position. Then it is a decision of can Kuyt and Babel play these kind of less advanced, less help from the middle, wide positions? I am not so sure, and Babel would be pretty mad because he sees himself moving more and more central and more and more forward and this would be a step back in both directions. Now all that is left is Pennant (who I actually rate higher than most) and Yossi. In my opinion an 4-4-2 even with VIlla and Torres wouldn't be as good as our main starting XI from the end of last year if Pennant and Yossi are the wingers. SO now we would find ourselves right back where we started a while ago needing Two wingers with maybe not even enough money to buy one at the type of quality level that we are looking for.

So now I am not sure what to buy. it seemed like the main weakness of the 4-2-3-1 last year was maybe the fullbacks and MAYBE the "other" defensive midfielder. Well we have addressed both fullbacks already (assuming we officially sign Dossena) and I am guessing Barry would be played alongside Mascherano if brought in (or played alongside Gerrard making a 4-1-4-1 out of the 4-2-3-1). After that I can't really see any more improvements we can make. Kuyt has made that position his own and I am afraid the whole thing could implode if he was taken out of the equation even though a lot of people think we can probably add a more clinical finisher or a better crosser or someone with more flair. Babel has so much upside I would be worried about bringing in a replacement for him as well. I think in a way we are stuck with this team unless we want to "blow it up" and have a huge firesale to raise funds for a 4-4-2 starting XI

perhaps he's more blu-ray

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:02 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:Thought Silva played well last night and like Heimdall said he was playing against a side that only wanted to defend and are experts at it.
He looked a threat and the most likely scorer imo.

I think he is too lightweight meself.

With his 65Kg, he'd be one of the players with less weight in the league. But he's small but hard. Harder than little Luis who initially didn't seem to be the most appropiate player for the premiership neither.

by **maguskwt** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:39 pm

I think David Villa is a better player at what he does than Silva at what he does... but silva still looks quite good... so I haven't really made up my mind about him yet... I would prefer we go for villa than silva...

by **bigmick** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:16 am

Sabre wrote:
bigmick wrote:I did make a point this time as well of having a good look at David Silva. Now I know that everyone rates him and all that, and that this was hardly a game in which any attackers shone (why the feck did I waste money on Italy with that fecking clown Luca Toni up top) but I wasn't totally convinced I must say. The first thing which strikes you about him is the fact that he's about five foot three and probably seven stone dripping wet. He wouldn't be the first bloke of his tininess to make it in the Premiership in a creative role (Zola being the obvious one which springs to mind) but I hope he is made of very stern stuff if we are going to sign him. Teams will simply try and break him in half and it won't be pretty.

Don't worry about getting bullied, he played in Eibar. The Segunda Division is not the Spanish Primera wanabes, but a competition of hard tackles. You don't get much first touch football there but physical one. Ask Coleman, who could not believe when he was playing in a muddy northern stadium under heavy rain, he thought he was playing in the middle of England (including a bunch of fans with Scottish skirts known as the Eibarpool supporters).

The Segunda Division is full of leg breakers, not Ronaldinho wannabes, so when it comes to bullying don't worry.

You might have noticed though he's not a proper winger. He knows to do the role, but he likes to roam to the middle. Yesterday he wasn't particularly accurate in the shots from outside the box, but I think you might have noticed he doesn't have a bad technique at that.

Something else you didn't like about him mate? (with all the I know it's early disclaimers, do not worry to be accurate, it was just a game watching him).

Silva is more solid than spectacular. The kind of player that might not be man of the match often, but always you say "good game".

No there's nothing really to dislike about him Sabes it seems to me. He looks a very tidy footballer, and although he's played in games which I've watched before now, this was the first time I ever really paid any special attention to him. As you say despite appearing to be left footed and left winger (rather than left midfielder it seems to me) he is happy to come to the right. His technique was good for his shooting, he looks to have good balance and is happy to play it simple. All in all he looks like a good player to me, no Worldbeater, but a good player.

The question about his physicality though is a fair one, and with the greatest respect I don't find it all that re-assuring that he played in the lower leagues in Spain. Nor am I questioning his attitude, or his toughness, merely his ability to cope and his body strength.

At his hieght and build, he is going to have to be an extraordinarily good player to cut it in England. I'm not talking about any cliches about it being a tougher league or any of that stuff, (although such cliches do apply in this case) I'm talking about the fact that lots of the physical contact which is a foul in Spain, isn't a foul in the Premiership. He's going to find himself getting bundled off the ball regularly in his first few games, and his quizziacal looks at the referee will be met by blank stares (or a red card if it's Steve Bennet and it's against Man U).

He's not unique in that respect, that happens to all foreign players who go to England. The question mark I would have about him is whether he is good/strong enough to overcome the problem. In the Premiership you have to be able to protect the ball, both with skill and strength. We all remember the sorry sight of seeing Morientes time after time putting himself between the ball and his marker, only to find himself "moved" off it and the ball cleared. He never ever came to terms with the physicality of what was required, and I have grave reservations about whether Silva will either based on admittedly very little study.

Like I said earlier, he would do well to study videos of Zola who spent his first couple of months being kicked up in the air but responded so brilliantly. I always felt much of his success was in the fact he kept moving, even when shielding the ball he didn't give the defenders a target to get physical with. Something like a skillfull boxer he seemingly always managed to unbalance them. It also must be said that he was an absolutely wonderful little player, with boxes of tricks, awareness, vision and toughness in equal measure. Being his size he needed to be, and this little fella Silva will need to be as well.

FWIW I think signing this little bloke is an absolutely huge gamble given his stature. I know it's early and all that, but it's a gamble given the types of fee being bandied about which I personally wouldn't take.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:28 am

no offense to anybody and I certainly don't want to look like the forum police, but there are bunch of places already out there to talk about Villa, Silva, Arshavin, etc. I think the title was a bit misleading, but this thread was supposed to be mainly about our players that we have currently and more about our current "system" and its ability to adapt to certain TYPES of players or taking our current set up and adding a couple of pieces into the mix and seeing if a new system (with these new players included) would work better than the one that we mainly used last season.

Regardless of the "adapting to the prem" factor I am pretty sure that if you made a list of the best XI footballers at LFC, and then asked if you would be willing to replace the 11th person on the list for David VIlla you would do it in a heartbeat. The man can play. But nevertheless that doesn't mean we should pursue him or another player of similar quality and abilities just because they are good players.

Am I just seriously overestimating what our team was doing in the 2nd half of the season? or finding the inncorrect cause? am I wrong for thinking that we have something of value in this 4-2-3-1 of alonso, masch, kuyt, gerrard, babel, and torres chemistry? Am I placing too much value on the uniqueness of each individual player, and their ability to keep the system working properly? Is it as simple as taking players and replacing them with other footballers who are seen as "better" players?

Obviously price plays a huge role in all of this and that is being ignored (to an extent) for these purposes. I would rather we try and measure the value that a player add to the club. If a player is going to be deployed in a manner that is not maximizing his potential, in almost all cases it wont make sense to pay the asking price that is valued at that max potential number. And its also important to consider the other key word, ADDED value. Since only XI players can be on the pitch at a time a players ADDED value is the increase difference in value to the team above the player he is replacing. Now if you are talking about changing the whole system around, almost everybody's "number value" is going to change, and its going to become something that is more or less unkown (depending on how long they have been at the club and if they have ever played in that role in that position before)

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:26 pm

JoeTerp wrote:no offense to anybody and I certainly don't want to look like the forum police, but there are bunch of places already out there to talk about Villa, Silva, Arshavin, etc. I think the title was a bit misleading, but this thread was supposed to be mainly about our players that we have currently and more about our current "system" and its ability to adapt to certain TYPES of players or taking our current set up and adding a couple of pieces into the mix and seeing if a new system (with these new players included) would work better than the one that we mainly used last season.

Regardless of the "adapting to the prem" factor I am pretty sure that if you made a list of the best XI footballers at LFC, and then asked if you would be willing to replace the 11th person on the list for David VIlla you would do it in a heartbeat. The man can play. But nevertheless that doesn't mean we should pursue him or another player of similar quality and abilities just because they are good players.

Am I just seriously overestimating what our team was doing in the 2nd half of the season? or finding the inncorrect cause? am I wrong for thinking that we have something of value in this 4-2-3-1 of alonso, masch, kuyt, gerrard, babel, and torres chemistry? Am I placing too much value on the uniqueness of each individual player, and their ability to keep the system working properly? Is it as simple as taking players and replacing them with other footballers who are seen as "better" players?

Obviously price plays a huge role in all of this and that is being ignored (to an extent) for these purposes. I would rather we try and measure the value that a player add to the club. If a player is going to be deployed in a manner that is not maximizing his potential, in almost all cases it wont make sense to pay the asking price that is valued at that max potential number. And its also important to consider the other key word, ADDED value. Since only XI players can be on the pitch at a time a players ADDED value is the increase difference in value to the team above the player he is replacing. Now if you are talking about changing the whole system around, almost everybody's "number value" is going to change, and its going to become something that is more or less unkown (depending on how long they have been at the club and if they have ever played in that role in that position before)

Joe, I think there is demonstrated value in the 4-2-3-1 system. I mean, the last few months of the season were not a fluke. Some will chalk it up more to a settled side than to the formation but I think they are part and parcel of one another. That's not to say that we can't ever go back to 4-4-2, mind--it's just to suggest that we've hit upon a system that provides us good balance between attacking and defending by getting all of our best players on the pitch.

With that said, I think that there are players we could bring in to improve that system. I think Silva would slot right into that system beautifully, for instance. It might mean Babel comes off the bench more or plays occasionally on the right instead of Kuyt but so be it. Likewise, I think Bentley would work well in that system. Barry for Alonso is not going to ruin the system either, I don't think. And this brings us back to your original question--would Villa fit that system? He might but I'd have my doubts.

But, if it was a choice between missing out on Villa and sticking with 4-2-3-1 or getting Villa and switching to 4-4-2, I'd go for the latter. Our biggest problem against lesser sides, IMO, is an occasional lack of creativity. We rely on Gerrard and Torres for most of our attacking thrust and so any opportunity to get another match winner on the pitch should be looked at seriously. I think being so stuck on a 4-2-3-1 that we refuse to sign top players who might not slot into that system would be a mistake.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:13 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:no offense to anybody and I certainly don't want to look like the forum police, but there are bunch of places already out there to talk about Villa, Silva, Arshavin, etc. I think the title was a bit misleading, but this thread was supposed to be mainly about our players that we have currently and more about our current "system" and its ability to adapt to certain TYPES of players or taking our current set up and adding a couple of pieces into the mix and seeing if a new system (with these new players included) would work better than the one that we mainly used last season.

Regardless of the "adapting to the prem" factor I am pretty sure that if you made a list of the best XI footballers at LFC, and then asked if you would be willing to replace the 11th person on the list for David VIlla you would do it in a heartbeat. The man can play. But nevertheless that doesn't mean we should pursue him or another player of similar quality and abilities just because they are good players.

Am I just seriously overestimating what our team was doing in the 2nd half of the season? or finding the inncorrect cause? am I wrong for thinking that we have something of value in this 4-2-3-1 of alonso, masch, kuyt, gerrard, babel, and torres chemistry? Am I placing too much value on the uniqueness of each individual player, and their ability to keep the system working properly? Is it as simple as taking players and replacing them with other footballers who are seen as "better" players?

Obviously price plays a huge role in all of this and that is being ignored (to an extent) for these purposes. I would rather we try and measure the value that a player add to the club. If a player is going to be deployed in a manner that is not maximizing his potential, in almost all cases it wont make sense to pay the asking price that is valued at that max potential number. And its also important to consider the other key word, ADDED value. Since only XI players can be on the pitch at a time a players ADDED value is the increase difference in value to the team above the player he is replacing. Now if you are talking about changing the whole system around, almost everybody's "number value" is going to change, and its going to become something that is more or less unkown (depending on how long they have been at the club and if they have ever played in that role in that position before)

Joe, I think there is demonstrated value in the 4-2-3-1 system. I mean, the last few months of the season were not a fluke. Some will chalk it up more to a settled side than to the formation but I think they are part and parcel of one another. That's not to say that we can't ever go back to 4-4-2, mind--it's just to suggest that we've hit upon a system that provides us good balance between attacking and defending by getting all of our best players on the pitch.

With that said, I think that there are players we could bring in to improve that system. I think Silva would slot right into that system beautifully, for instance. It might mean Babel comes off the bench more or plays occasionally on the right instead of Kuyt but so be it. Likewise, I think Bentley would work well in that system. Barry for Alonso is not going to ruin the system either, I don't think. And this brings us back to your original question--would Villa fit that system? He might but I'd have my doubts.

But, if it was a choice between missing out on Villa and sticking with 4-2-3-1 or getting Villa and switching to 4-4-2, I'd go for the latter. Our biggest problem against lesser sides, IMO, is an occasional lack of creativity. We rely on Gerrard and Torres for most of our attacking thrust and so any opportunity to get another match winner on the pitch should be looked at seriously. I think being so stuck on a 4-2-3-1 that we refuse to sign top players who might not slot into that system would be a mistake.

ahh, but what are the other consequences of this new system with Torres and Villa up top. That is another thing I was aiming at. Its not good enough to slobber over how good they could be and how much more of a goal threat Villa offers over whoever is not playing now. What does the rest of the midfield look like now? how different are these roles from before? how much (if at all) are we loosing from players by having them play in these more 4-4-2 like positions than their previous roles? And finally does someone like a David Villa enhance the team so much that it doesn't matter?

On the right I think we are good. I think Kuyt shouldn't really have much of a problem switching to a position where there are no longer any doubts that he is now a midfielder an in no way a "forward." Also, this at least brings Pennant back into the discussion of whether he should be chosen or not. Seems like a long time ago, but there were times in his first season here where he went about 6 weeks as our most consistent performer, maybe he can find that again, maybe he is hungry to earn his spot back, (or maybe his attitude becomes worse and we sell him)

But now your asking Babel or Yossi to play left midfield. And your asking Gerrard to partner mascherano where he will have a bit of defensive leash on, at least in comparison to before.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:29 pm

JoeTerp wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Joe, I think there is demonstrated value in the 4-2-3-1 system. I mean, the last few months of the season were not a fluke. Some will chalk it up more to a settled side than to the formation but I think they are part and parcel of one another. That's not to say that we can't ever go back to 4-4-2, mind--it's just to suggest that we've hit upon a system that provides us good balance between attacking and defending by getting all of our best players on the pitch.

With that said, I think that there are players we could bring in to improve that system. I think Silva would slot right into that system beautifully, for instance. It might mean Babel comes off the bench more or plays occasionally on the right instead of Kuyt but so be it. Likewise, I think Bentley would work well in that system. Barry for Alonso is not going to ruin the system either, I don't think. And this brings us back to your original question--would Villa fit that system? He might but I'd have my doubts.

But, if it was a choice between missing out on Villa and sticking with 4-2-3-1 or getting Villa and switching to 4-4-2, I'd go for the latter. Our biggest problem against lesser sides, IMO, is an occasional lack of creativity. We rely on Gerrard and Torres for most of our attacking thrust and so any opportunity to get another match winner on the pitch should be looked at seriously. I think being so stuck on a 4-2-3-1 that we refuse to sign top players who might not slot into that system would be a mistake.

ahh, but what are the other consequences of this new system with Torres and Villa up top. That is another thing I was aiming at. Its not good enough to slobber over how good they could be and how much more of a goal threat Villa offers over whoever is not playing now. What does the rest of the midfield look like now? how different are these roles from before? how much (if at all) are we loosing from players by having them play in these more 4-4-2 like positions than their previous roles? And finally does someone like a David Villa enhance the team so much that it doesn't matter?

On the right I think we are good. I think Kuyt shouldn't really have much of a problem switching to a position where there are no longer any doubts that he is now a midfielder an in no way a "forward." Also, this at least brings Pennant back into the discussion of whether he should be chosen or not. Seems like a long time ago, but there were times in his first season here where he went about 6 weeks as our most consistent performer, maybe he can find that again, maybe he is hungry to earn his spot back, (or maybe his attitude becomes worse and we sell him)

But now your asking Babel or Yossi to play left midfield. And your asking Gerrard to partner mascherano where he will have a bit of defensive leash on, at least in comparison to before.

If we signed Villa, mate, I would prefer to see us line-up one of two ways (I'm assuming that Barry comes in and Alonso departs here):

Torres Villa

Barry Masch Gerrard Kuyt/
Babel

Dossena/ Agger Carra Arbeloa
Aurelio

Reina

This line-up would provide a strong midfield platform in support of the two front men. We would also have flexibility at RM, depending on opposition and player form (I would sell Pennant, and we'd probably need to anyway if we are in the market for Villa). I don't know much about Dossena, TBH, hence the waffling at LB.

The other option, IMO, is:

Torres Villa

Babel Barry Masch Gerrard

Dossena/ Agger Carra Arbeloa
Aurelio

Reina

Some will not want to see Gerrard on the right again but I think this midfield has a great balance between attack and defense. Granted, both Gerrard and Babel would be prone to cutting infield, so much of the width would need to come from the fullbacks. Again, though, I think that this team would have balance and would not struggle to put most premiership sides to the sword.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:40 pm

so it is dependent on bringing in Barry for it to work correctly right? That was one of my original questions you have to buy the HD tv in order for your HD DVD player to be worth anything (as well as HD DVDs)* Unfortunately, the price for Barry continues to rise and Juve keep balking at our asking price for Alonso. The riise deal just makes the Dossena deal seem cheaper. Hopefully the sales of Carson and Crouch (and finnan, Voronin, maybe Aurelio) can get us close enough that we don't have to break the bank on what was given rafa on a player like David Villa.

* or blu ray player and blu ray disks

by **maguskwt** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:46 pm

JoeTerp wrote:so it is dependent on bringing in Barry for it to work correctly right? That was one of my original questions you have to buy the HD tv in order for your HD DVD player to be worth anything (as well as HD DVDs)* Unfortunately, the price for Barry continues to rise and Juve keep balking at our asking price for Alonso. The riise deal just makes the Dossena deal seem cheaper. Hopefully the sales of Carson and Crouch (and finnan, Voronin, maybe Aurelio) can get us close enough that we don't have to break the bank on what was given rafa on a player like David Villa.

* or blu ray player and blu ray disks

what's wrong with

Torres Villa

Babel Mash Alonso Gerrard

Dossena/ Agger Carragher Arbeloa
Aurelio
Reina

or

Torres Villa

Babel Mash Gerrard Kuyt

Dossena/ Agger Carragher Arbeloa
Aurelio
Reina

Don't think we need barry to accomodate Villa. Just don't understand the fuss here. Villa will improve our lineup whether Barry is brought in or not... only thing is that if we bring in Villa we should go back to 4-4-2

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:16 pm

maguskwt wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:so it is dependent on bringing in Barry for it to work correctly right?

what's wrong with

Torres Villa

Babel Mash Alonso Gerrard

Dossena/ Agger Carragher Arbeloa
Aurelio
Reina

or

Torres Villa

Babel Mash Gerrard Kuyt

Dossena/ Agger Carragher Arbeloa
Aurelio
Reina

Don't think we need barry to accomodate Villa. Just don't understand the fuss here. Villa will improve our lineup whether Barry is brought in or not... only thing is that if we bring in Villa we should go back to 4-4-2

Agreed. Yes, team balance is important but we're perhaps in danger of over-thinking this a little bit (In order to bring in Villa we also need Barry, and should we keep Pennant if we revert to 4-4-2, etc. etc.).

Basically, it comes down to this for me:

1) Would Villa improve our team? Yes.
2) Would switching to 4-4-2 in order to accommodate Villa unduly weaken us elsewhere on the pitch? IMO, no.
3) If we could afford Villa and he wanted to come to Liverpool, should we do the deal and worry about the tactics later? Definitely. :nod

by **tubby** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:32 pm

Im suprised this Villa talk is still going on. How can we afford a player like him when we havent even paid for Torres or Mascherano yet.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:35 pm

I am not sold on Babel as a left midfielder, and I think Gerrard's production would drop if he had only mascherano behind him in the holding role, but I guess that would be ok because Villa or any other top quality frontman would provide a lot more in the attack than Alonso did, so much so that it would more than likely make up for any drop off in Gerrard's offensive numbers.

by **Sabre** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:28 pm

3) If we could afford Villa and he wanted to come to Liverpool, should we do the deal and worry about the tactics later? Definitely.

That's one of the oldest debates in football. Whether you must suit your tactics to the players you have, or the opposite, believe in your tactics and buy the players that will suit it. There are coaches of both schools. I'm more of the school of "believe in quality". As I've seen tactics come and go, but I've always seen that talent has been the most important thing on a football pitch.

From time to time new fashions prove to be shocking and effective, like when the off side tactic started to be used, or Colombian Pacho Maturana brought the "reducing spaces" tactic to the liga. Those new tactics make a revolution one year from time to time and teams using those make an impact, but other than that, skill is what always decide a match more often than not. So in my view, if you're able to bring 3 quality players, you'd better suit your :censored:

ideas and tactics to them.

The exception to this rule for me are the too lazy players. Some players can be a bad influence due to their lack of workrate, even if they're crowded with quality.

P.S. Bigmick, the way you put it, I understand your concerns.

by **Rush Job** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:16 am

bigmick wrote:I did make a point this time as well of having a good look at David Silva. Now I know that everyone rates him and all that, and that this was hardly a game in which any attackers shone (why the feck did I waste money on Italy with that fecking clown Luca Toni up top) but I wasn't totally convinced I must say. The first thing which strikes you about him is the fact that he's about five foot three and probably seven stone dripping wet. He wouldn't be the first bloke of his tininess to make it in the Premiership in a creative role (Zola being the obvious one which springs to mind) but I hope he is made of very stern stuff if we are going to sign him. Teams will simply try and break him in half and it won't be pretty.

Agreed, he doesnt even look like a winger to me, more like a luis garcia type of player, we could do better with that kind of money ( 10-17? mill ) IMO.

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