Liverpool FC Forum

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:35 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:so what if he has better records in terms of goals, conceeded, wins, losses, draws whatever. Has he won a league title? NO. I'd rather see stats saying Benitez has won four league titles in four years than Benitez has won 82 games out of 150 games.

No sh.it sherlock.

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:36 pm

s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Reds is a sensible post in that it attempts to put things into context. I'm not a fanatical follower of the manager although I do readily accept he has done many good things, but I do wish that those who choose to support him slavishly would refrain from comparing him to the likes of Paisley, Shankly and Dalglish. the ONLY comparison worth talking about in any given season is how many points you got compared to anybody else THAT season. If next year the Premiership suddenly becomes mega competitive and the winners have only 70 points, as long as it's us I couldn't give a feck. If we got 13 less points than we did in Houlliers heart attack season of 2003 (sorry if the dates are wrong I've just got in here and am making it up) then who cares? Champions is champions.

However people love and adore Rafa, he is not currently worthy of being mentioned in the same breath, the same stratosphere as the great Liverpool managers as he has never ever even challenged for the league, least of all actually won the thing. It really is as simple as that I'm afraid.

Its all reletavie though mate.

Paisley Won 2 league titles a UEFA cup and two European cups in his first 4 seasons

Fagan won League Title, League cup and European cup in his first season.

Dalglish won 2 league titles and two Fa cups in his first 4

Its all relative though mate

I meant as in, its relative to the time.

On your point, you need to look at what happened before those people took over to be fair.

by **taff** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:39 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Reds is a sensible post in that it attempts to put things into context. I'm not a fanatical follower of the manager although I do readily accept he has done many good things, but I do wish that those who choose to support him slavishly would refrain from comparing him to the likes of Paisley, Shankly and Dalglish. the ONLY comparison worth talking about in any given season is how many points you got compared to anybody else THAT season. If next year the Premiership suddenly becomes mega competitive and the winners have only 70 points, as long as it's us I couldn't give a feck. If we got 13 less points than we did in Houlliers heart attack season of 2003 (sorry if the dates are wrong I've just got in here and am making it up) then who cares? Champions is champions.

However people love and adore Rafa, he is not currently worthy of being mentioned in the same breath, the same stratosphere as the great Liverpool managers as he has never ever even challenged for the league, least of all actually won the thing. It really is as simple as that I'm afraid.

Its all reletavie though mate.

While it is relative the league does seem to be hanging like an albatross around his neck.

But as in many arguments and comparisions we have to take into account the opposition faced today compared to then and money which has changed the game and many other factors.

I suppose it is relative after all

by **Red @ Heart** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:20 pm

Earlier in this league and last season i would have said no only because of his tinkering, And i know i did slate Rafa alot for this and even at 1 stage called for his head, BUT for the last few months he has calmed down on his rotation and the players are geling together but unfortunately its a bit late for Liverpool to win the league, and i can see why he did rotate alot too because players are still kinda fresh at this late stage in the league, over all Rafa always new what he was doing so what gave me the right to call for his head and slate him him almost every time, i think hes done this club very proud and im very happy with him staying here but what he hell has he got to do for the clowns ie hicks to stay at the club, it beyond me why this A-hole would consider hs position as Manager, we will win the premier under Rafa thats for sure.

IN RAFA I TRUST. :bowdown

by **Ciggy** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:23 pm

There is nothing to say that in the way the game is played today, loads of foreigners, the money, the pace that Shanks, Paisley or Fagan would have won anything.

One pleasure I take out of that record is that its better than tw@t features Ferguson's when he reached his milestone.

by **kazza** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:17 pm

s@int wrote:Paisley Won 2 league titles a UEFA cup and two European cups in his first 4 seasons

Fagan won League Title, League cup and European cup in his first season.

Dalglish won 2 league titles and two Fa cups in his first 4

Its all relative though mate

Those three managers inherited title winning sides. I notice you did not mention Shanks.

by **metalhead** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:05 pm

I do think its irrelevant to compare Rafa benitez to past managers of the 70's and 80's, because back then the competition was different and football was different. However, I do think that we should comparing Rafa's tenure with his predicessor Houllier because its same competition and same football. Neverthless, IMO Rafa already has done better than Houllier did. For example, Rafa till now qualified in each season he had with liverpool to the Champions League, while Houllier in 2 or more seasons (I think only 2 seasons) Houllier failed to achieve CL qualification. In europe, we have improved massively, that Rafa beats Houllier in that department, without a doubt.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:10 pm

kazza wrote:
s@int wrote:Paisley Won 2 league titles a UEFA cup and two European cups in his first 4 seasons

Fagan won League Title, League cup and European cup in his first season.

Dalglish won 2 league titles and two Fa cups in his first 4

Its all relative though mate

Those three managers inherited title winning sides. I notice you did not mention Shanks.

Shankly won the Second division Championship in his second season.

Shankly spent £1.3million on transfers in 15 years (including Kennedy his record signing who never played for him)

Benitez has spent £152million in 4 years

Shankly won the first division title in his 5th full season

The team which won the FA CUP in his final season and won the league the season before :-

Clemence - £15k
Smith - free
Lindsey - £60k
Hughes - £65k
Thompson -free
Cormack - £110k
Hall -free
Heighway -free
Callaghan - free
Keegan -£35k
Toshack -£110k

Lawler -free

Less than £400k

Benitez team - god knows how much

by **Igor Zidane** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:16 pm

s@int wrote:
kazza wrote:
s@int wrote:Paisley Won 2 league titles a UEFA cup and two European cups in his first 4 seasons

Fagan won League Title, League cup and European cup in his first season.

Dalglish won 2 league titles and two Fa cups in his first 4

Its all relative though mate

Those three managers inherited title winning sides. I notice you did not mention Shanks.

Shankly won the Second division Championship in his second season.

Shankly spent £1.3million on transfers in 15 years (including Kennedy his record signing who never played for him)

Benitez has spent £152million in 4 years

Shankly won the first division title in his 5th full season

The team which won the FA CUP in his final season and won the league the season before :-

Clemence - £15k
Smith - free
Lindsey - £60k
Hughes - £65k
Thompson -free
Cormack - £110k
Hall -free
Heighway -free
Callaghan - free
Keegan -£35k
Toshack -£110k

Lawler -free

Less than £400k

Benitez team - god knows how much

Yeh but it is all relative saint

by **metalhead** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:27 pm

s@int wrote:
kazza wrote:
s@int wrote:Paisley Won 2 league titles a UEFA cup and two European cups in his first 4 seasons

Fagan won League Title, League cup and European cup in his first season.

Dalglish won 2 league titles and two Fa cups in his first 4

Its all relative though mate

Those three managers inherited title winning sides. I notice you did not mention Shanks.

Shankly won the Second division Championship in his second season.

Shankly spent £1.3million on transfers in 15 years (including Kennedy his record signing who never played for him)

Benitez has spent £152million in 4 years

Shankly won the first division title in his 5th full season

The team which won the FA CUP in his final season and won the league the season before :-

Clemence - £15k
Smith - free
Lindsey - £60k
Hughes - £65k
Thompson -free
Cormack - £110k
Hall -free
Heighway -free
Callaghan - free
Keegan -£35k
Toshack -£110k

Lawler -free

Less than £400k

Benitez team - god knows how much

mate, I think we shouldn't compare the spending of shankly to the spending of Rafa, because first of all, back then football wasn't about money, advertisments, celebrity status and wealth. Also, inflation happened

by **Emerald Red** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:39 pm

s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Reds is a sensible post in that it attempts to put things into context. I'm not a fanatical follower of the manager although I do readily accept he has done many good things, but I do wish that those who choose to support him slavishly would refrain from comparing him to the likes of Paisley, Shankly and Dalglish. the ONLY comparison worth talking about in any given season is how many points you got compared to anybody else THAT season. If next year the Premiership suddenly becomes mega competitive and the winners have only 70 points, as long as it's us I couldn't give a feck. If we got 13 less points than we did in Houlliers heart attack season of 2003 (sorry if the dates are wrong I've just got in here and am making it up) then who cares? Champions is champions.

However people love and adore Rafa, he is not currently worthy of being mentioned in the same breath, the same stratosphere as the great Liverpool managers as he has never ever even challenged for the league, least of all actually won the thing. It really is as simple as that I'm afraid.

Its all reletavie though mate.

Paisley Won 2 league titles a UEFA cup and two European cups in his first 4 seasons

Fagan won League Title, League cup and European cup in his first season.

Dalglish won 2 league titles and two Fa cups in his first 4

Its all relative though mate

It is still relevant if you take into consideration that these managers inherited a sound and successful team at the time. Obviously the team Fagan inherited more so.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:43 pm

metalhead wrote:
s@int wrote:
kazza wrote:
s@int wrote:Paisley Won 2 league titles a UEFA cup and two European cups in his first 4 seasons

Fagan won League Title, League cup and European cup in his first season.

Dalglish won 2 league titles and two Fa cups in his first 4

Its all relative though mate

Those three managers inherited title winning sides. I notice you did not mention Shanks.

Shankly won the Second division Championship in his second season.

Shankly spent £1.3million on transfers in 15 years (including Kennedy his record signing who never played for him)

Benitez has spent £152million in 4 years

Shankly won the first division title in his 5th full season

The team which won the FA CUP in his final season and won the league the season before :-

Clemence - £15k
Smith - free
Lindsey - £60k
Hughes - £65k
Thompson -free
Cormack - £110k
Hall -free
Heighway -free
Callaghan - free
Keegan -£35k
Toshack -£110k

Lawler -free

Less than £400k

Benitez team - god knows how much

mate, I think we shouldn't compare the spending of shankly to the spending of Rafa, because first of all, back then football wasn't about money, advertisments, celebrity status and wealth. Also, inflation happened

I agree mate but just to put things in perspective - the mancs paid £110k for Dennis Law back in 1962 it was 1970 before Liverpool paid out so much for Toshack, and by then Leeds had already paid £165k for Allan Clarke. So even allowing for inflation Shanks was hardly the big spender.

Comparison with past managers is silly, and trying to make Benitez seem better by comparing him to our past great managers is stupid. Even the pitches, boots, balls and shin pads are different now , never mind the rules and finances !

by **metalhead** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:47 pm

I would say s@int, we should compare Rafa with Houllier, that I think it would be give us an idea if we have proggressed or not.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:05 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
s@int wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Reds is a sensible post in that it attempts to put things into context. I'm not a fanatical follower of the manager although I do readily accept he has done many good things, but I do wish that those who choose to support him slavishly would refrain from comparing him to the likes of Paisley, Shankly and Dalglish. the ONLY comparison worth talking about in any given season is how many points you got compared to anybody else THAT season. If next year the Premiership suddenly becomes mega competitive and the winners have only 70 points, as long as it's us I couldn't give a feck. If we got 13 less points than we did in Houlliers heart attack season of 2003 (sorry if the dates are wrong I've just got in here and am making it up) then who cares? Champions is champions.

However people love and adore Rafa, he is not currently worthy of being mentioned in the same breath, the same stratosphere as the great Liverpool managers as he has never ever even challenged for the league, least of all actually won the thing. It really is as simple as that I'm afraid.

Its all reletavie though mate.

Paisley Won 2 league titles a UEFA cup and two European cups in his first 4 seasons

Fagan won League Title, League cup and European cup in his first season.

Dalglish won 2 league titles and two Fa cups in his first 4

Its all relative though mate

It is still relevant if you take into consideration that these managers inherited a sound and successful team at the time. Obviously the team Fagan inherited more so.

The team Paisley inherited had won 3 cups in 8 years, the team Benitez inherited had won 5 cups in 6 years not much difference there. Benitez took a team that finished 4th and won the CL with it in his first season so it couldn't have been that bad a side. After spending another £130 odd million we are still finishing fourth and have finished no better than 3rd (Even Houllier managed second )

Paisley took a team that finished 2nd and converted it into a title winning team 2nd year then won it another 5 times just for luck.

Fagan took a team that won the league and league cup, and converted it into a team that did the treble in his first season

Dalglish took a team that finished 2nd and converted it into a team that did the double in his first season

by **bigmick** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:31 pm

See I've got no bother discussing whether or not we've made progress under Rafa, whether he's an improvement on Houllier etc etc as long as the argement stays sensible. What does my head in a bit though is when people start bringing the likes of Paisley and Shankly and Dalglish into the equation. There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever in my opinion. I'm not of that opinion because transfer fees have incresed along with wages, or because the league is harder to win or any of that stuff. I'm of that opinion simply because so far Rafa's achivements indicate he is not worthy of being mentioned in the same breath (in my opinion). Now in time, he could go on and emulate some of our great managers of the past, but so far he isn't close.

So leaving the all time great managers out of it for a second, I actually think we have progressed massively in many areas. Clearly the team and squad is better than the one which Houllier left Rafa, only a fool would suggest otherwise. People may counter with the fact that having spent plenty of money, the team ought to be better as well which is true enough, but he has proven himself IMHO more astute in the transfer market. Whether or not we are any closer to the other big clubs is more debateable as they have all improved from four years ago, but by and large I think we have moved forwards. Clearly we are a much better team in the Champions League than we were, even allowing for the fact (in my opinion) that it is far easier to progress in these days for English clubs than it ever was previously.

By far the biggest progression though has been in the last three months of this season. This is the bit of progression which has dwarfed all the others in terms of importance in my opinion. The apparent ditching of "Rafa style" with consistent team selection policies, a formation within which everyone seems to know what they're supposed to be doing, players not in the team not having the luxury of the knowledge it'll be their "turn" next week, those in form knowing they've got half a chance of getting a run in the team. The change in philosophy is massive. The only crying shame of the whole thing is that is has taken us the best part of four seasons to finally give more traditional methods of picking the team a try. Had we have adopted this policy from the outset of this season, I am absolutely convinced that we would have launched a full, proper and genuine title challenge.

As for next season, if we can continue to give ourselves a chance then I am certain we will challenge. If we can also ditch the ludicrous "delayed gazelle" theory in the first three months of the season as well it would be hugely advantageous, as would an acknowledgement once and for all that whatever the circumstances and however good a player he is, Steven Gerrard can't actually play on the left-wing. This time next season, we will STILL be in with at the very least a mathematical chance of winning the title, and most probably an outside actual chance but a chance nonetheless if Rafa sticks to his current guns.

Liverpool FC Forum

Progress Under Rafa - Analysis and Opinion

Who is online