Liverpool FC Forum

[taff]

I honestly cannoy see Rafa changing his methods.  I can see him looking t improving the squad in such a way that the ugly word of rotation becomes a little bit more attractive.

I have to confess that I find the anti Rafa argument of now he is selecting as he should have earlier on a bit arrogant to be honest. In the media of late especially after the apparent collapse of Arsenal the thoughts on Liverpool have been that squad wise they are behind Man Utd and Chelsea, with the concession that restiArsenal but resting(rotation) has helped Man Utd and wenger has messed up with the amount of games and his squad size.

The reality is that our aims are not Arsenal but the other two who have won things lately. They have big quality squads and you will see rotation again next year but hopefully with a better squad.

If you advocate the same team than what will next years moan be, the style of football, the kit, etc.  Rafa will rotate regardless of anyones opinion as he clearly sees it as the best way of a sustainable season. 

I am afraid that your options may be to advocate Rafa out as I honestly do not think that he has seen the light but being pragmatic

[bigmick]

You don't think the fact that we've played 4-5-1 in all but one game (Arsenal at Home) in the last fifteen games or so is an alteration of the policy Taff? Torres has played uptop on his own with Gerrard in behind in every meaningful fixture bar one. Masherano has partnered Alonso in the centre barring suspension, Babel has played left midfield, Kuyt right midfield. The back four has seen some minor meddling, but by and large we've stuck to the core of a team and in my view anyway, it shows. We've had one awful performance (Man Utd away) and lots of fairly stuttering ones, but we've found a rhythm and a spirit which has meant we've been able to prevail in most games.

Whether or not it is a permanent "seeing of the light" or just a pimple on the erseflesh of "Rafa style" remains to be seen and is certainly debateable, but I am surprised if you don't think there has been a significant reduction in the rotation.

As for the arogance thing, I would counter that it is this side of Rafa's character which is his hardest to love traits in my book. His absolute refusal to consider just for a moment that he maybe not going down the right road is dogmatic and admirable stickability to his loyal fans, and unbelieveable arrognace to some of us who think we have wasted three out of the last four years in terms of having teams plenty good enough to get involved in a title race.

As I've said a couple of times, our sudden ability to get results at the other members of the big fours grounds and to string together what amounts to title form may after all be absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact we are picking largely a settled team. On the other hand though, maybe it is a factor, and I think it is.

Latly, this thing about "he'll still rotate next season" has come up a few times. I most certainly hope that he does because you cannot play the same team in every single game. What you can do though, is play it a similar way to what the likes of Manchester United do. That is to say, establish momentum, pattern and rhythm and wait until players are actually getting tired (ie not after five weeks of the season) before you start resting them. Don't ask beanpole strikers to play left wing, don't baffle and bamboozle the players with constant meddling and tinkering, and try and stay in contention for the league until after christmas. As for Arsenal, once again as I've said a couple of times this theory that wenger "under-rotated' is becoming accepted wisdom. There may even be some truth in it, but they have at least challenged for the title, will still finish above us int eh league and but for being on the wrong end of a bounce or two against us they would have put us out of the Champions League as well so I would be surprised if wenger if studying the intracies of "Rafa style" to see how he might improve his methodology.

[taff]

I did debate whether to press the add reply button as I knew this would generate a response.  I have to admit sympathy to your views but I still dont agree with them. 

The main problem I see is we have not got a winning habit in the club well definitely not in the league.  Rafa has and will make mistakes like every other manager and I have sympathy to the tinkering argument but I am mostly of the opinion that Rafa must think that the teams he sends out are good enough for the win. We will see the main team in the main games as everyone would expect but we should have the squad strength to have picked up more points this season.  Now whether this is Rafa, the squad, the captain then who knows but in the CL we seem to walk on the pitch against anybody with bucket loads of confidence.

This I attribute to confidence and if we win the league next season I think the floodgates will open and we will be regularly competing for the foreseeable future.  We look at times like a team that has accepted a CL place.  I think Rafa learns and moves on now whether you think that is another thing but I still think he will continue with his core values, and in concession to your arguments dumping some bizarre things

But regarding our favourite club Arsenal, arent all games decided on a bounce here and there especially as the stakes increase.  Watch old games from years ago and a yard there or a tackle there and we might have a much smaller trophy cabinet, but in the long term you kinda get what you deserve and Arsenal deserved to be dumped out of the competition simple as.  I admire them but have no sympathy whatsoever and Wenger could learn from Rafa but vice versa as well

the results are what they are and as you argue for arsenal then I could argue that we dominated a lot of games that we drew so a lucky bounce there and we could be top of the league but we are not

And what if the two favourites for the CL final are knocked out next week will we then have to listen to how hard it is to compete in the PL and the CL as the game this weekend will take a lot out of Man Utd and Chelsea.  Then the experts will be debating rotation and squad size and quality.

[destro]

Couldn't be bothered starting a new thread for this and it sort of fits in here anyway

Rafa Benitez is set to take legal action against ‘News Group Newspapers’ about a story deemed to be defamatory that appeared in the ‘News of the World’ recently.

He is demanding more than a reported £300,000 for a story titled ‘It’s your fault Benitez in new blast at owners’ which was written by well-known journalist Rob Beasley.

The story itself put Benitez in such a dark shadow that the Spaniard took offence immediately. It claimed he had been disloyal to the club and fans and consistantly failing to give reasonable reasons why the club had not won the title since his arrival in 2005.

Benitez says the story has ’seriously injured his reputation’ which has caused him severe embarrassment.

Rafa is taking this case very seriously and is claiming on many fronts for damages, aggravated damages, and an injunction banning repetition of the allegations at the centre of his claim. Benitez is also suing Beasley himself over the story.

[cpc4eva]

http://sport.setanta.com/en/Blogs/A-to-Z-of-Bloggers/Ben-Blackmore/2008/05/Prefectionist-Benitez-ready-to-apply-final-touches/



Written by Ben Blackmore

on Sunday, 04 May 2008
If you had taken any of the 43,074 Liverpool fans inside Anfield on Sunday and asked them to script one match that encapsulates The Reds’ season, the 1-0 triumph over Manchester City would have been pretty accurate.

Liverpool 1-0 up, at home, Fernando Torres the goalscorer, Liverpool creating and wasting a plethora of chances. The only thing missing was a late equaliser for the visitors.

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The Reds have dropped 15 points at home this season, eight of which came against sides outside the ‘Big Four’, points that would have put Liverpool three behind Manchester United going into the final day of the season.

Of course football is a game of ‘ifs’, but it shows how close The Reds are and how gigantic this summer is for Rafa Benitez, a summer that - in my opinion - will see a bigger change in Liverpool than any of the previous three close seasons Benitez has overseen.

The Spaniard is such an obsessive in pursuit of perfection that after a meal from his wife he probably tells her that the pasta could have been improved if she had rotated the penne for the tagliatelle, and if her pre-meal appetisers had offered more ‘possibilities’.

Since taking over Liverpool four seasons ago, Benitez has moulded a team that looks more and more like his Valencia model by the day.

Liverpool are tough to beat, they squeeze the life out of teams, their defence is robust, and if Jose Reina keeps a clean sheet at Tottenham next week he is guaranteed The Premier League’s Golden Glove for highest number of clean sheets (currently 17).

The quartet of Daniel Agger, Jamie Carragher, Martin Skrtel and Sami Hyypia means Benitez can forget about the heart of his defence.

Ahead of them Benitez now has players he trusts for the dual anchor-man role in midfield – a system that defined his Valencia team in the same way 4-3-3 defined Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea.

Furthest forward, the Liverpool boss has a world class striker in Torres (the one thing he never had at Valencia), a player who could match that level in Ryan Babel, and of course he has Steven Gerrard.

So what can Liverpool fans expect this summer?...Answer: The introduction of top quality ball players.

Look back at the Valencia side that destroyed Liverpool on two occasions during the 2002/03 season. The attacking trio behind the striker read: Vicente, Rufete, Pablo Aimar.

All gifted technicians on the football - not the hard-working, defensively sound wide options that Liverpool have so far coped with in the mould of Dirk Kuyt or Antonio Nunez.

Supporting those wide players were the raiding figures of Amedeo Carboni and Curro Torres, who played more as second wingers than cautious full backs.

Other than Fabio Aurelio (and maybe Emiliano Insua), Liverpool’s full backs are either defensive liabilities (Riise and Arbeloa) or unable to fit the more flowing game (Finnan) that Benitez produced at El Mestalla.

For me, Benitez has always wanted to utilise better footballers. You only need look at the crop of technically gifted youngsters that have just won the reserve title to see his vision.

But now he has the money, the defensive platform, and the spine to add the gloss.

I won’t suggest names, but I do believe Liverpool fans are more likely to see a David Silva than a Mohamed Sissoko entering the Melwood entrance door this summer.

They will be signings that radically change Liverpool from a functional, defence-first outfit, to one that will possess far greater creation next season.

Expect to hear less of Arsenal fans chanting “Liverpool, BOOT the ball” from now on, and more of Liverpool fans bouncing to “Fernando Torres, Liverpool’s number nine”.

[kazza]

I thought it would be interesting to bump this old thread especially in light of that excellent win yesterday. I know it is early and we have a long way to go untill we win the title but it is intersting to read what some have said months ago and to see whether they may have changed their opinion. Many said that we were a couple of players away, some said we needed to rotate less and some did not think we are a better side and said we would not compete for the title under Raffa.

I also think we may well have done better last year if it were not for the infighting at the club.

[bigmick]

It was and is a really interesting thread. I've just read the last page or so and I stand by every single word I said back then. Infact, in many ways my extlolling the fact that Rafa had "seen the light" was way ahead of it's time. Much of the stuff I posted on this thread has proved to be positively prophetic and it's definately one of my better efforts, so not even a smidge of retraction from me. As far as "seeing the light", my coinfidence that if we selected more sensibly we'd challenge etc etc I couldn't have been more on the money if I tried. Thanks for bringing the thread up 

[Bam]

I also think we may well have done better last year if it were not for the infighting at the club.

Thats still the excuse around here from some isnt it .. The "infighting". Well I think I replied first in this thread and stand by what I said then, Rafa has cut out the the 'mass rotating' and we're paying dividends for it IMO. Mick pointed out in the rotation thread, that we've picked up more points when the team by and large has been settled. This happened towards the tail end of last season where there was still "infigting" and since the begining of 08/09 season. People may look at the "infighting" thing as a valid excuse in their eyes, but its not imo. Its what is happening largely on the field and in training that effects our performances, and again  I find it no coincedence that we're playing well and getting good results because the lads have finally been allowed to build up a head of steam.

Back on topic: I'm sure amongst this 20 odd page thread I would of critised Rafa somewhere amongst all the other posts. Whatever I said back then (and havent looked it tbh) I'll stand by what I said.
I would have had no hesitation atall if Rafa carried on with nonsical (sp) rotating this season (08/09) without it paying off and I'm presuming it wouldnt as it hasnt in the past, calling time on him, I was personally getting very tired of it something had to change. Thankfully it was Rafa who changed his approach rather than tweedle D and Tweedle Dum changing the manager.

I think Rafa Benitez himself has realised this may of been his last season incharge, and the fact he isnt the Yankee's bestfriend it would of been important to keep the faith amongst the Liverpool fans. He has a good rapour with the fans and that could of dwindled had he not changed his approach (in which I believe he has BTW) towards the team and Prem this season.

Either that or he's simply realised his methods havent worked and changed them accordingly, I couldnt see him doing this as he comes accross as a stubborn bloke. Athough he isnt afraid to sell any players that hes brought in who arent upto it, and ship em straight back out.

Whatever the reasons for him changing his approach I obviously dont know and am merely speculating as a Liverpool supporter. But he has changed them, and its been a long while coming, but its for the good. Even though we're only nine games into the season, we for once find ourselves in a brilliant position where the team has been given a fighting chance early on (we need to build on it though). I highly doubt we'll win in the league, we may have a blip even with a settled team (which is when I anticipate of the Pro Ro's come creeping out the woodwork). But as long as Rafa has given this team a diffferent opportunity to mount a challenge even without it neccerserily paying off come May I'll be happy knowing he's tried the 'old skool' method and given it a chance.

And I'm pretty certain had he in the past, and if he continues to adopt this policy in the future with selecting more sensible personel we will/would of seen much bigger strides of progression under Rafa.

[kazza]

It was and is a really interesting thread. I've just read the last page or so and I stand by every single word I said back then. Infact, in many ways my extlolling the fact that Rafa had "seen the light" was way ahead of it's time. Much of the stuff I posted on this thread has proved to be positively prophetic and it's definately one of my better efforts, so not even a smidge of retraction from me. As far as "seeing the light", my coinfidence that if we selected more sensibly we'd challenge etc etc I couldn't have been more on the money if I tried. Thanks for bringing the thread up 

No worries Mick it is my pleasure.

You saying that is hardly a surprise and indeed was expected as you do seem to trumpet your horn quite regularly (no offence   ). There were  many other posters on this thread however and they may or may not agree with their initial assessment that may have been written in a rush of blood or now changed from a state of euphoria after our great win yesterday.

[kazza]

I also think we may well have done better last year if it were not for the infighting at the club.

Thats still the excuse around here from some isnt it .. The "infighting". Well I think I replied first in this thread and stand by what I said then, Rafa has cut out the the 'mass rotating' and we're paying dividends for it IMO. Mick pointed out in the rotation thread, that we've picked up more points when the team by and large has been settled. This happened towards the tail end of last season where there was still "infigting" and since the begining of 08/09 season. People may look at the "infighting" thing as a valid excuse in their eyes, but its not imo. Its what is happening largely on the field and in training that effects our performances, and again  I find it no coincedence that we're playing well and getting good results because the lads have finally been allowed to build up a head of steam.

Back on topic: I'm sure amongst this 20 odd page thread I would of critised Rafa somewhere amongst all the other posts. Whatever I said back then (and havent looked it tbh) I'll stand by what I said.
I would have had no hesitation atall if Rafa carried on with nonsical (sp) rotating this season (08/09) without it paying off and I'm presuming it wouldnt as it hasnt in the past, calling time on him, I was personally getting very tired of it something had to change. Thankfully it was Rafa who changed his approach rather than tweedle D and Tweedle Dum changing the manager.

I think Rafa Benitez himself has realised this may of been his last season incharge, and the fact he isnt the Yankee's bestfriend it would of been important to keep the faith amongst the Liverpool fans. He has a good relationship with the fans and that could of dwindled had he not changed his approach (in which I believe he has BTW) towards the team and Prem this season.

Either that or he's simply realised his methods havent worked and changed them accordingly, I couldnt see him doing this as he comes accross as a stubborn bloke. Athough he isnt afraid to sell any players that hes brought in who arent upto it, and ship em straight back out.

Whatever the reasons for him changing his approach I obviously dont know and am merely speculating as a Liverpool supporter. But he has changed them, and its been a long while coming, but its for the good. Even though we're only nine games into the season, we for once find ourselves in a brilliant position where the team has been given a fighting chance early on (we need to build on it though). I highly doubt we'll win in the league, we may have a blip even with a settled team (which is when I anticipate of the Pro Ro's come creeping out the woodwork). But as long as Rafa has given this team a diffferent opportunity to mount a challenge even without it neccerserily paying off come May I'll be happy knowing he's tried the 'old skool' method and given it a chance.

And I'm pretty certain had he in the past, and if he continues to adopt this policy of selecting more sensible personel we will/would of seen much bigger strides of progression under Rafa.

The thing was we were cruising along well when the Klinsman news came out. After that we went off the rails I cannot believe it had no effect. They (owners) then seemed to get their house in order after Jan and we started to play well again. It was not only the infighting, or the over-rotating or the fact that we were a couple of players short or the fact some players last year were not playing well. Sensibility will probably state it was a combination of all those factors. I can see it!

[bigmick]

I've just re-read the thread, and it was also the one where I first floated my idea of the Champions League "success", and the fact that as a minimum the big four should get to the last eight and probably better every season. I'm going to blow my own trumpet again Kazza, you're quite right. I was bang on the money on that one as well, feck me I was on form and I've enjoyed reading it.

As far as the "infighting", unsurprisingly I agree with Bam and not with your theory but I guess you probably would have guessed that anyway.

Anyway, not going to bog the thread down with the "r" word, and there are certainly some fascinating points of view contained within what was an excellent thread, so it'll be interesting if anybody is ersed enough to read back through and pass comment.

[Owzat]

I've just re-read the thread, and it was also the one where I first floated my idea of the Champions League "success", and the fact that as a minimum the big four should get to the last eight and probably better every season. I'm going to blow my own trumpet again Kazza, you're quite right. I was bang on the money on that one as well, feck me I was on form and I've enjoyed reading it.

As far as the "infighting", unsurprisingly I agree with Bam and not with your theory but I guess you probably would have guessed that anyway.

Anyway, not going to bog the thread down with the "r" word, and there are certainly some fascinating points of view contained within what was an excellent thread, so it'll be interesting if anybody is ersed enough to read back through and pass comment.

It was convenient blaming the "boardroom shenanigans", when in fact the main cause of us falling from the title race was draws and those were fairly constant throughout the season. We did draw three in a row in the Premiership around the New Year, later I believe than the supposed Klinsmann story, and two of those were away to Citeh where we don't often win, and Boro where we also have tended to draw in recent years. The only other clutch of draws were in September, away to pompey where our fortunes are mixed, and home to our bogey side brum.

Some might point to the defeats, but the only defeats last season were to the mancs who we'd lost regularly to anyway, a shock defeat away to Reading when rotation and attitude might be blamed, and away to West Ham which came in January.

I think it's simply convenient to blame something, like fingers often pointed at Kuyt. However, we have lost only TWO Premiership games in 2008 which is now only one more than Chelsea - assuming I heard correctly that they were unbeaten in 2008 in the league before yesterday *goes to check*

OK.

They lost to Barnsley in the FA Cup, Tottenham in the League Cup, Fenerbahce in the Champions League (away), but I can't see any league defeats in the 2008 part of last season. We have lost four games overall in 2008 (Barnsley FA Cup, Chelsea Champions League and West Ham and Man Utd away in the Premiership) and are currently 17 games unbeaten in all competitions - 16 games unbeaten in the Premiership.

By the by, the thread on the (Rafa) contracts issue and players walking out if he leaves isn't exactly new, funny how that hasn't been an issue while we're on a good run....................... until yesterday when we were not sure we would get a result and it was convenient to suggest the rags were trying to unsettle us

[Sabre]

It was and is a really interesting thread. I've just read the last page or so and I stand by every single word I said back then. Infact, in many ways my extlolling the fact that Rafa had "seen the light" was way ahead of it's time. Much of the stuff I posted on this thread has proved to be positively prophetic and it's definately one of my better efforts, so not even a smidge of retraction from me. As far as "seeing the light", my coinfidence that if we selected more sensibly we'd challenge etc etc I couldn't have been more on the money if I tried. Thanks for bringing the thread up 

No worries Mick it is my pleasure.

You saying that is hardly a surprise and indeed was expected as you do seem to trumpet your horn quite regularly (no offence   ). There were  many other posters on this thread however and they may or may not agree with their initial assessment that may have been written in a rush of blood or now changed from a state of euphoria after our great win yesterday.

You mean that back then the forum was indeed busy?

Yes it was. Comparisons with Houllier, The team was stagnated, there wasn't any real progress under Rafa, multiple comparisons with Ferguson were stated to prove so...

No wonder why it's better to talk about Rafa seeing the light rather than remembering some posts of realistic people. 

I think it's good to get over the rotation debate and re-analyse if Rafa has built a strong squad in this long process.

I have already admitted that Rafa has changed his rotation policy, I have already admitted changing it might have brought some confidence to players, but now, let's discuss, has Rafa built a stronger squad these years? are we going in circles? are we progressing?

[bigmick]

It was and is a really interesting thread. I've just read the last page or so and I stand by every single word I said back then. Infact, in many ways my extlolling the fact that Rafa had "seen the light" was way ahead of it's time. Much of the stuff I posted on this thread has proved to be positively prophetic and it's definately one of my better efforts, so not even a smidge of retraction from me. As far as "seeing the light", my coinfidence that if we selected more sensibly we'd challenge etc etc I couldn't have been more on the money if I tried. Thanks for bringing the thread up 

No worries Mick it is my pleasure.

You saying that is hardly a surprise and indeed was expected as you do seem to trumpet your horn quite regularly (no offence   ). There were  many other posters on this thread however and they may or may not agree with their initial assessment that may have been written in a rush of blood or now changed from a state of euphoria after our great win yesterday.

You mean that back then the forum was indeed busy?

Yes it was. Comparisons with Houllier, The team was stagnated, there wasn't any real progress under Rafa, multiple comparisons with Ferguson were stated to prove so...

No wonder why it's better to talk about Rafa seeing the light rather than remembering some posts of realistic people. 

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at Sabes to be totally honest. I'm not even sure if your post is praising me up, having a pop at me or indeed feck all to do with me at all .

The reason just for the record why I thanked Kazza for bringing it up was that unusually for me, there isn't a single part of any post of mine there which I'd change with the benefit of hindsight. Also, given our history (me and him) on the forum I can be fairly certain that making me look good will have been entirely accidental on his part so I couldn't resist thanking him.

Anyway, it is a really interesting thread for anybody who can be bothered to read through it. Almost all the posts are football ones, the debate takes upon itself a life of it's own and some really interesting points come up.

There's the initial "have we progressed" question, comparisons firstly with Fergie taking seven years and then latterly Wenger taking one, people trying to take rotation out of the equation, people trying to put it back in, the "how hard is the Champions League" argument made it's newkit debut in the thread (and like many debutants, many fans were unconvinced on first look), there was the "seeing of the light" proclamation and all along there was some very interesting observations.

Interestingly from my point of view (and I must admit quite surprising when I read it) was the fact that I had already decided back then that Rafa had not only "seen the light" ( I remember that bit), but I was also proclaiming that as a result he should be given more time as manager. I was as convinced then as I have been for the last three seasons that more conventional selection methods would lead to a league title challenge provided we didn't get half the squad injured or something else ridiculous, but I am surpised looking back how adamant I was that Rafa was now worthy of unstinting support.

[Sabre]

Not really a pop at you, no. You've been very stubborn but pretty consistent. The problem with you is that you are like an umbrella right now, I'll explain.

You don't change your opinion according to the results, and that's difficult and a praise. You've maintained your position on rotation when we had good results in the past, and when we were struggling. So in a way, it's only fair you keep giving it importance now that the team is clicking and we're not rotating.

What winds me up me though, is that back then, rotation wasn't the only weapon against Rafa. Bigmick, at some point of this season we had to make a thread called "positives" such was the negative atmosphere surrounding Rafa and the team.

It was so negative, that when we wanted to sign Riera, things like "we could buy a decent championship player instead of another Spaniard" were said.

It was said a lot of things and not only about rotation.

And now I see you , and rightly so, posting about rotation, but I don't see anyone remembering the things that were said back then about Rafa. Correct me if I'm wrong, things like Rafa not understanding the english game, Rafa not progressing, Rafa needing a sidekick, Rafa having nothing to do with our defensive solidness but Pako, A LOT of things were said about Rafa.

The problem I have with your posts are not your posts per se, is that many have jumped your bandwagon in order to justify our success, and do not mention these things any more.

My point is that Rafa received a lot of stick besides the rotation thingy. He's even called a cúnt in match threads. So it's all nice you talk about rotation (you have always done so), but hasn't anyone ELSE anything to correct? that was what I think Kazza meant, and that's why I called you an "umbrella" in which many are covering. No offence meant and hopefully you understand where I come from now.