Liverpool FC Forum

Bamaga man wrote:

trawl through the endless drivel that it attracted through the night.

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Mine wasnt a one liner, it was a response to JBGs initial post.

farking hell, when did this all suddenly change that the mods can delete whatever posts they like ?

I think your post was in the "endless drivel " catagory Bamaga 

The_Rock wrote:Time for a change of manager
1)Rock - Mourinho
2)Pewee -
3)Heimdall - Pako or King Kenny but seriously mourinho
4)Bamaga - Hiddink
5)Lynds = ciggy - she hates mourinho so i am not sure....
6)JBG - Mourinho
7)puroresu - Mourinho or Van Basten
8)BigMick - i think he mentioned mourinho
9)Dav -
10)Lakes -
11)Little Hobo - Mourinho
12)Sarge -
13)Penguins - King Kenny or Mark Hughes
14)club_Levis -
15)teamleader1 -
16)Rockthekop - Mourinho
17)slickrick - mourinho
18)tommycockles -
19)parchpea -
20)god_bless_john_houlding - Martin Jol
21)JohnBull -
22)jedwards -


Rafa to stay until end of his contract.
1)Lando
2)Sabre
3)burjennio
4)Igor Zidane
5)Dundalk
6)Zi-Dan Agger

Rafa to stay as manager for next season:
1)LFC2007
2)ruskiy playmaker
3)metalhead
4)babu
5)redtrader74

Uncertain
1)Saint - Mounrinho

Sorry for quoting it again but my initial posts were ignored 

Can you add me to the Rafa to stay next season list please?

JBG wrote:Mods: I had planned this as a post in an existing thread but it sort of took on a life of its own and I think it touches on some issues not covered in other threads.

I've been a long time supporter of Rafa Benitez and was extremely happy when the club announced that he was our new manager in 2004 but sadly lately I feel that I have being defending the indefensible for far too long.

This season has been the most disappointing season that I can remember as a supporter, more disappointing than 2002/03, in that there was a general optimism about the club and supporters last summer that this year we genuinely had the chance to challenge for the title. I don't think anybody really expected us to win it, but there was certainly a feeling that we were up for it this year and we'd be there or thereabouts in April.

Instead, we have suffered a nightmarish season which could yet end up getting even worse. We have the absolute fiasco of the American ownership, but that is another matter. What has been equally disheartening has been our shambolic performances on the pitch.

The reality is that we have gone backwards in the league since 2005/06. You may remember that season: we had a poor start before going on a massively impressive winning streak over the winter, had a bit of a blip in January, before finishing the season strongly.

On paper we have a far stronger squad than in 2005/06 but, in my opinion, our season has been entirely mismanaged by Rafa. It pains me to say that as I have a high estimation of the man, but it is correct.

We are 17 points off the pace and I have little doubt we'll finish more than thirty points off the eventual winners, which, once again, is a scandal. It is particularly scandalous given our points tally in 2005/06 and the fact that we added two world class players to our squad over the past twelve months - Javier Mascherano and Fernando Torres.

What is more, aside from Dan Agger (and Alonso's problems earlier in the season) we have had no major injury problems, nothing comparable to Chelsea who have lost Lampard and Terry for significant parts of this season (as well as Ballack, Carvalho and Drogba for spells) or Man UTD, who had their best player last season (Paul Scholes) out until last week and their captain (Gary Neville) is still out. We cannot blame injury for our poor league form and it is not really a contributing factor like it was in 2004/05 when we missed Gerrard, Alonso, Cisse, Kewell and numerous others for long spells.

Nor can the blame be laid on the turmoil behind the scenes between Benitez and the owners. Yes, this was surely disruptive but the supporters subsequently united behind Benitez, and it should have galvanised those players who claim to have moved here because of the Benitez factor (the Spaniards and more). Benitez and the team had a perfect chance to stick it to the owners by going out and impressing so much on the pitch that it would have been practically impossible for the Yanks to sack Rafa. And despite doing exactly so in the Champions League, they have surrendered a title challenge in the meekest possible way dropping points against minnows left right and centre. 

What has happened this season DEMANDS scrutiny of the Benitez regime, to do otherwise would be scandalously negligent.

Rafa was brought here as a guy who had a proven record of guiding a club with less financial resources than its competitors to two Spanish titles in three years and also excelling in Europe. At the time it seemed the perfect fit. And, aside from a god awful first 8 months or so, it seemed that things were going quiet well with Rafa. After the miracle of Istanbul the club seemed reborn and while we never challenged for the title in 2005/06, we had two terrific runs in the league that season and in hindsight it was only our poor start to the league season that scuppered our chances of really putting it up to Chelsea. Rafa had a limited budget compared to his competitors and aside from a few turkeys, he made some shrewd purchases in Crouch, Alonso, Garcia, Agger and Reina, and there was a real sense that he was building something.

The first signs of things going astray can be seen, in hindsight, in the summer of 2006 and Rafa's decisions in the transfer market that summer. Even allowing for one or two gambles on youngsters that don't pay off (Gonzalez) the signings of Bellamy, Kuyt and Pennant were ultimately a backwards step. I know Rafa remedied his mistake by moving Bellamy on a year later but it has to be asked why he went for Bellamy in the first place. My inclusion of Pennant may be more controversial and less cut and dried as the others - indeed he had a terrific first half against Milan in the Champions League final - but ultimately Pennant will never take the step up from being a talented but wayward winger to being a player of genuine class. Rafa may argue that there were no other players on the market at that time at the price range Rafa was afforded (well, I personally would have thought David Bentley, even two years ago, would have been a better bet than Pennant) and that right wing was a problem position. To that I say that ideally Rafa should have kept his seven million in his back pocket, bided his time and played Gerrard on the right until such time as more funds were available and the right player became available. Pennant always struck me as a panic buy - a desperate attempt to fill a so called "problem" position as soon as humanly possible. Better Pennant there than nobody at all, thought Rafa. The reality is that it was a case of "better Pennant there than Gerrard there". We never really had a problem at right wing, we had Steven Gerrard there after all, and that season he got something like 23 goals, mostly from right midfield. The real problem was that Gerrard doesn't want to play there and it was a case of splashing seven million on a flash ex con drunken driver than upsetting Captain Fantastic.

Then we come to Kuyt, the new "Mark Hughes" when he first signed, a guy who, on his debut, ran his lungs out and sent volleys and long range shots flying at the goal from all angles. The hard running and perspiration continued but the volleys and shots soon dried up and from a supporting striker whom we urgently require a minimum of 25 goals and assists a season in the league we are lucky to get 15 goals and assists. That's one of the differences between us and our competitors.

Poor Kuyt. He tries his best and he can never be faulted for effort. But the Premier league is a harsh unforgiving place and there are two factors that fatally go against Kuyt. The first is that Benitez has him running the channels, ala John Aldridge under Jack Charlton for Ireland twenty years ago, spending more time running towards the corner flag than getting into the box. This is not Kuyt's fault, that's Rafa's tactical decision and the question then needs to be asked whether Kuyt contributes more to the team running the channels than playing more centrally. A look at the league table answers that question. The second fatal weakness in Kuyt is his ability, or lack of it. He has some skills, but is not blessed with a great first touch. However, it is his shocking lack of pace that is his achilles heel, and the Premiership is unforgiving to forwards with no pace (ask Andriy Shevchenko, who has lost his). All of the top strikers in England (as well as the average ones and indeed most of the poor ones) have pace to burn and the only exception to that rule that I can think of sits on our bench - Peter Crouch.

Rafa's alleged falling out with Crouch (sadly ironic when you think about it given that Rafa championed Crouch at a time when the whole country was laughing at the long fellow) and refusal to start him in place of the tried and failed Kuyt bewilders. As I said, Rafa persisted with Crouch when Peter first came to Liverpool and couldn't hit a barn door. He stuck with him and eventually the goals and assists started to come in buckets. Soon nobody laughed at him anymore (Arsenal certainly didn't) but strangely Rafa developed a new teacher's pet: his name was Dirk and he was good at running towards the corner flag.

Rafa's continual selection of Kuyt over Crouch this season, when you think of our problems, beggers belief. It is true that Crouch is no Van Basten, but he knows where the goal is and 9 out of 10 teams find him uncomfortable to deal with, even if he doesn't score. The more the season goes on the more illogical and absurd this is.

Look, I'm not trying to single out Kuyt. I like the guy, indeed at times I feel sorry for him, because in the age of Harry Kewell type footballers, Kuyt does actually burst a gut, and that, in a bizarre Kafkaesque way, has to be respected. Indeed I actually think Kuyt could score goals in the right circumstances: I think if he was played in the old fashioned Mark Hughes role in the current Man UTD team he would score a few goals. You see, that's part of the problem: Kuyt and Liverpool aren't a proper fit.

Therein brings me to the next problem with the Benitez regime: transfers and scouting. I have already spoken about Bellamy and Pennant and how I feel they don't fit Liverpool. Neither does Kuyt. He is simply not good enough for the role Benitez has earmarked for him. So why was he bought? That beggers belief. Why spend a guy who played as a traditional twelve yard centre forward in Holland (with great success) and then play him running the channels? Surely a more mobile forward would be better suited, like a pliable Djbril Cisse who would follow Rafa's every command? Holland have also had this problem (like Liverpool, one of their own making) by playing Kuyt out of position. I get the feeling that this is because Kuyt is a soldier (or a sucker, depending on your view point) who will follow every order without question. Surely Benitez and his staff would have noted Dirk's lack of pace when he played in Holland? Surely they would have noted that this would be a liability in the Premiership?

They sign a guy with a notable weakness and then, instead of playing to his strengths by sticking him central and supporting him, they have him running the channels.

What's going on?  We sign a "freak" for seven million despite the whole country laughing at us, then the "freak" shows everybody that he can actually play, the goals flow and everybody stops laughing, only for us to go out and buy an inferior player for ten million and play this guy instead of our goal scoring freak. Can somebody please explain the logic of this to me?

Then there's our midfield. Centre midfield should never really be a problem for us, we've always had an abundance of talent there going back to the early Benitez days, yet it is a massive problem and bizarrely, a drain on the club's resources.

Two years ago we had two fantastic central midfield players - Gerrard and Alonso - supported by a crafty veteran, Hamman. In the age of big squads it was probably advisable that we signed more cover, which we did, by buying Sissoko, although it is arguable that investment in other areas was more urgent. Sissoko then overtook Hamman and Hamman eventually left and Rafa then went out and got Mascherano in on loan with a view to a permanent transfer. This was a great move for the club, maybe not for Sissoko but that's football. However, we now had three extremely good central midfielders and that would leave us with a bit of a selection headache if all three are fit. A nice problem to have, most would argue. We all became upset with the Americans when they dithered in signing Javier permanently, indeed this was a major bone of contention between Rafa, the supporters and the owners. Word has it that a deal has been struck in January for Mascherano to sign permanently in the summer for anywhere between 15 and 18 million. A lot of money spent but Mascherano is a good player, yes?

Of course Mascherano is a good player and we are all glad: he's a major asset to Liverpool. In the optimistic assumption that Xabi Alonso will recover form following his two broken bones, Liverpool will have an embarassment of riches in central midfield, particularly given that Rafa also signed the BRAZILIAN PLAYER OF THE YEAR! Lucas Leiva in the summer as well! Wow, four great central midfielders.

We have four great central midfielders and yet not a wide player of note at the c;ub. Instead Rafa did things by half measures, bringing to the club, in his time, three average Premiership wide players (Pennant, Benayoun and Zenden), an inconsistent but gifted Spaniard better suited to playing in the hole (Garcia) and a journeyman Spaniard who was totally out of his depth (Nunez). He has also persisted with the technically gifted but disgracefully lazy Harry Kewell out wide or, on occasion, played full backs there, be it Finnan, Aurellio, that Dutch guy who's name I can't spell and stayed here about five minutes and most notably Riise. Last summer we all naively thought the problem was solved when he splashed out ten million for Ryan Babel, a player Arsene Wenger had earmarked as a forward but then passed over, only for us to discover that for all of Babel's abilities he is not a winger (although may have a future up front).

Our wide areas were a problem going back to Graeme Souness' time and since Digger Barnes put on a bit of weight and moved to central midfield, our only consistent wide player who was good enough to potentially feature in a Premiership winning side was Steve McMannaman. Many have been tried since, most have failed, none have shown the desired ability to compete at the very highest level. This was surely made clear to Benitez by Parry and Moores when he was first contacted by the club (then again....) and even if it wasn't, even the briefest inspection of the squad in the summer of 2004 and a percursory look at the Liverpool Season Highlights videos of the past ten years would have highlighted this urgent need.

So its very strange given this dire weakness that instead of focusing his search on top class wide players, Benitez has developed a fetish for collecting central midfielders in the same way George Graham used to collect centre halves. Yes, Lucas and Mascherano are very good players and I am very happy to have them at Liverpool, but at what cost? Would the 18 or so million we splashed out on Mascherano not have been better spent on a more urgent position, such as left wing? There's the rub: I'm very happy that we've been reported to have pinned Javier down at last, not so happy if there isn't an equally impressive fee laid out in the summer for a wide player of genuine class.

That's the problem, however, I have no faith that Rafa will actually shell out 18 million in the summer on a winger even if the money is there. If Rafa is here in the summer I will wager he'll buy yet another central midfielder and buy an average, middle of the road winger like Stewart Downing.

In all the recent furore I cannot believe that this has not been a subject of debate.

The signing of Martin Skertel also raised my eyebrows. There seemed to be a common consensus before Christmas that with Dan Agger injured, we needed another centre half. I'm surprised nobody questioned this. If I was an alien who had just come down from Mars and watched Liverpool play, I would have said that Liverpool had greater problems out wide and up front, but I wouldn't have been too concerned about the defence. After all, Liverpool were hardly shipping goals before Christmas but there were games where they were struggling to put chances away (the glut of goals in late November and early December was ultimately deceptive). Moreover, Dan Agger would eventually come back from injury and the signing of another centre half would leave us in a situation where we would have (we hope!) four Premiership class centre halves. A nice situation to be in, maybe, not so when you haven't got a wide player worth a spit and only one forward who can score (actually two, but thats already been dissected).

I've already established Rafa's central midfield fetish, now it seems he's partial to a bit of the old George Graham kinkiness after all. Great, we have loads of decent, hardworking, tough tackling central players, but (I know I'm getting repetitive here) what about our flank players? Steve Finnan is getting old and more error prone, John Arne Riise (who has always been an effective if limited player) has totally lost form, Fabio Aurellio is plainly not able to cope physically in England, Arbeloa is not Premiership winning class, neither is Pennant and has a dubious character that I'm not entirely comfortable with at our club, Benayoun has his moments but is too inconsistent and Harry Kewell, well, less said and all that. Ryan Babel, the guy bought to bring us width primarily starts on the bench and invariably plays centrally when he comes on late in the game. We cannot break teams out wide, our wide players don't get forward enough to support the forwards and when they do they lack the ability to ruthlessly finish sides off so what does Rafa do? He buys another couple of central midfielders and an expensive centre half as cover.


Mmm. I remember a time when our managers bought a forward or winger in January or February to add a bit of impetus to our season, an impetus that usually ended in silverware.

So, I have dissected Benitez's transfer policy which I have concluded is massively flawed and misguided. There is a problem with the Benitez regime in that Rafa misdiagnoses the team's problems: we can all see that we have issues out wide and up front but Rafa signs a central midfielder and an expensive centre back as cover. Massively, profoundly ironic from a guy who criticised his pay masters at Valencia for signing the wrong players. Liberated at Liverpool to run his own transfer policy at Liverpool Benitez has proceeded to sign lamp shades when what he really needed was a couch.

And then, when the lamp shades are put to one side and all are agreed that we need to get a couch, instead of going out and buying a luxurious double ended Ottomon chaise lounge Rafa ends up buying Ricky Gervais' old busted sofa at a car boot sale, preferring to keep a few quid in his back pocket for another central midfielder.

Rafa must feel that he will stand and fall by his own methods and whatever you feel about them, in a sense you got to grudgingly respect Rafa to sticking to his principles. However, I think the sword will ultimately fall on Rafa because his methods will fail in England, they have failed, are failing and will continue to fail and the proof can be seen in the Premiership tables since he arrived. Rafa justified his demotion of Torres to the bench in October as being a necessity of having Torres fresh come February when the final third of the season comes around. The rest of the country questioned this arguing that what was the point in resting players for February if the club is out of the title race come the spring. Rafa asked us all to trust him, he did of course know what he was doing and his methods had worked before.

Now, here we are in February and we are long out of the title race, indeed we will have a major scrap on our hands to get fourth place. While the problem was not as severe last year and the year before, both in February 2007 and February 2006 (not to mention all the other Februaries going back to 1990) we were out of the race. In his fourth season Rafa's methods have failed once again in the Premiership. That is the most damning indictment and there is absolutely no getting away with that.

My third and final indictment of the Benitez regime has been the poverty of the football we have produced since he arrived. When Benitez first took over we played a more expansive game than under Houllier, pressing further up the pitch and spreading the ball out wide. However, as things started to go ti.ts up in November of his first year Rafa reverted back to the old Houllier style of safety first-power play where we harassed and chased (which is good) but treated the ball like a hot potato (which is bad) and surrendered possession willy nilly in an impatient attempt to get the ball forward. We haven't moved on since and for all the quality in our ranks, our midfield players seem afraid of the ball and want to release it forward as soon as they can. When you compare this to the beautiful attacking football of Arsenal (joint top of the table), the exhilerating power play and pace of Man UTD (joint top of the table) and the controlled pressing (and increasing expansive) game of an injury ravaged Chelsea (still in with a strong shout of the Premiership). This is the real kick in the nuts: while we are no more competitive in the Premiership than Roy Evans' side was.

Look, I like Rafa and I still believe that he can be capable of genius in knockout competitions. There is every chance that he will pull a rabbit out of the hat this season in the FA Cup or Champions league. However, we have to seriously ask ourselves, is the club going forward under Rafa Benitez and in relative terms, are we any netter off than we were ten years ago? In the cups we are certainly a better side, particularly in Europe, and that is undoubtedly progress over the Roy Evans' regime, and also that of Gerard Houllier (who too was successful in the cups.....in a bizarrely similar fashion to Benitez). However, we have made no improvement domestically and we are no closer now to making a championship challenge than we were at any time in the past 18 years. Indeed, in relative terms, we have gone backwards slightly domestically since Roy Evans' time: Evans "only" had Man UTD and Arsenal to deal with at the end of his tenure whereas now Chelsea have joined (and surpassed) us as competitors. In relative terms therefore we are less competitive than we were ten years ago and that is in spite of his having our best player in a generation (Steven Gerrard), our best defender in 15 years (Jamie Carragher), our best goalkeeper in twenty years and the first time in god knows how long the ability to go out and sign two internationally renowned world class players (Torres and Mascherano).

That is the most damning indictment of all and something Rafa and the club cannot escape. When you look to our competitors (Arsenal, with a brilliant young team, Man   UTD with brilliant young players years from their peak and Chelsea with a fiercesome squad and buckets of money) and Rafa's track record, particularly in the league and in the transfer market, logically, I see no reason why we will compete next year, or the year after, under Rafa. The hard decision will then have to be made whether it is worth persevering with Benitez and see how the next two seasons pan out, when the odds are stacked on more disappointment, or make a clean break and start again.

For me, unfortunately, having seen it all before under all previous regimes since Daglish, I think its time for a fresh start.

This certainly won't make me popular among Liverpool fans but there is only one man for the job and that is Jose Mourinho. I urge fans to put their personal grievances behind them and recognise that Jose's larger than live personality is what is required to turn the club around. Its evident from the players' faces that confidence is in the toilet and Jose, if nothing else, has a proven track record of making his players rally around him and run through concrete walls. A change in ownership would do no harm either.

Bamaga man wrote:

trawl through the endless drivel that it attracted through the night.

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Mine wasnt a one liner, it was a response to JBGs initial post.

farking hell, when did this all suddenly change that the mods can delete whatever posts they like ?