Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:11 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Manager seems to have lost the plot ? How has Rafa lost the plot please ? The teams form has dipped.

Opinion or fact ?

Do you blame the manager completely for the run of results ?

Completely ? No, that would be an easy thing to do...and allow the players to get away with performing poorly.
Anyone can see that the players have been letting themselves down since we came back from the last international break.
All i am saying is that Rafa hasnt helped.
If he picks a similar side to the one he played against Spurs for the next few games then i am certain that we will gain positive results and better performances.
But if he persists with resting key players and bringing in inferior ones then we will continue to struggle.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:11 am

90% which is an awful lot, the players can only play to his tactics mate, while we can put maybe 10% down to sloppy play.

but thats not an exact science, thats only an opinion as thats all we can give on this

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:20 am

90% down to tactics and 10% the players ?

So not being able to find a red shirt, shooting well wide, barracking your team mates when you fu.ck up, pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play, short passes, not pressing the opposition, long humps upfield and the slackest marking for a number of years are 10% of the problem.

Whereas 90% of the problem is where Benitez tells them to stand ?

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:33 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play

He thought the final whistle had gone didn't he ? At least that was the way I saw it. As soon as he realised it hadn't gone he tried to make it look like he was just wiping his face.

I know Gerrard isn't flavour of the month but try to remember he is still our best player more often than not (just not lately).

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:37 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:90% down to tactics and 10% the players ?

So not being able to find a red shirt, shooting well wide, barracking your team mates when you fu.ck up, pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play, short passes, not pressing the opposition, long humps upfield and the slackest marking for a number of years are 10% of the problem.

Whereas 90% of the problem is where Benitez tells them to stand ?

the players do not choose the team, they do not choose the tactics, they do not choose the formation, if they are told to hoof the ball thats what they do, if they are told to play defensively thats what they do, if they are told to perform after missing a few weeks due to no reason other than the gaffa fancied a change then sadly thats what they have to do

like i say 10% is a fair figure (baring in mind i already say its not an exact science) and in my opinion rafa gets the team wrong, he gets the tactics wrong and he must shoulder most of the blame. if rafa picked me would i get the blame or rafa for picking me, think about it

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:41 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:90% down to tactics and 10% the players ?

So not being able to find a red shirt, shooting well wide, barracking your team mates when you fu.ck up, pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play, short passes, not pressing the opposition, long humps upfield and the slackest marking for a number of years are 10% of the problem.

Whereas 90% of the problem is where Benitez tells them to stand ?

Ok mate we obviously know what side of the fence you are on, and fair play to you, i wish i could be as positive and believe in the managers methods as much as you and some others do.
But a question for you, do you think Rafa is in any way to blame for this slump in form, results etc ? If so what percentage would you say is his fault ?

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:48 am

Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:90% down to tactics and 10% the players ?

So not being able to find a red shirt, shooting well wide, barracking your team mates when you fu.ck up, pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play, short passes, not pressing the opposition, long humps upfield and the slackest marking for a number of years are 10% of the problem.

Whereas 90% of the problem is where Benitez tells them to stand ?

Ok mate we obviously know what side of the fence you are on, and fair play to you, i wish i could be as positive and believe in the managers methods as much as you and some others do.
But a question for you, do you think Rafa is in any way to blame for this slump in form, results etc ? If so what percentage would you say is his fault ?

I do yes.

I think that he has made some strange decisions regarding substitutions, and I think he could improve on this.

I also beleive that he should have made sure we got cover in at centre half in the summer, and there should have been a plan B (to Heinzes plan A).

I am sure that rotation is important, and we need to keep people fresh, however I think that we need to play a spine of the team week in week out. I think that Reina, Carra, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres should play all the league games regardless.

Notice the way two of the important aspects of ths spine are in fact missing through injury, I beleive this is having a bigger impact than people will allow themselves to admit. We hoof it cus Agger and Alonso are not there to play it out of the back.

Gerrard is equally out of form bigtime, and he needs a rest/kick up the @rse. However it will simply be impossible with the above two missing, and another stick to beat Rafa with is he does it and we dont get the result.

by **redtrader74** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:54 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:90% down to tactics and 10% the players ?

So not being able to find a red shirt, shooting well wide, barracking your team mates when you fu.ck up, pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play, short passes, not pressing the opposition, long humps upfield and the slackest marking for a number of years are 10% of the problem.

Whereas 90% of the problem is where Benitez tells them to stand ?

Ok mate we obviously know what side of the fence you are on, and fair play to you, i wish i could be as positive and believe in the managers methods as much as you and some others do.
But a question for you, do you think Rafa is in any way to blame for this slump in form, results etc ? If so what percentage would you say is his fault ?

I do yes.

I think that he has made some strange decisions regarding substitutions, and I think he could improve on this.

I also beleive that he should have made sure we got cover in at centre half in the summer, and there should have been a plan B (to Heinzes plan A).

I am sure that rotation is important, and we need to keep people fresh, however I think that we need to play a spine of the team week in week out. I think that Reina, Carra, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres should play all the league games regardless.

Notice the way two of the important aspects of ths spine are in fact missing through injury, I beleive this is having a bigger impact than people will allow themselves to admit. We hoof it cus Agger and Alonso are not there to play it out of the back.

Gerrard is equally out of form bigtime, and he needs a rest/kick up the @rse. However it will simply be impossible with the above two missing, and another stick to beat Rafa with is he does it and we dont get the result.

Whats up with you Leon? Don't you get it, its Rafa fault when we play poorly (well 90.789563332% of the time). But any trophies have been won in spite of Rafa.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:55 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:Notice the way two of the important aspects of ths spine are in fact missing through injury, I beleive this is having a bigger impact than people will allow themselves to admit. We hoof it cus Agger and Alonso are not there to play it out of the back.

thats a fair comment, but also then by that reckoning every time they are rotated in the future must be a mistake as this could happen.

i agree with the core of the team leon, i agree with resting players as long as the changes are minimal and not wholesale. what i don't agree with is wholesale changes to rest players (its october and they need a rest haha), i don't agree that we should set up to counter the oppo every game, i would rather we set up to win and let them worry about us.
most of these things lay at rafas door mate, i know the players are also to blame but i genuinely do think their form is down to uncertainty and unfamiliarity with the team and formation

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:59 am

redtrader74 wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:90% down to tactics and 10% the players ?

So not being able to find a red shirt, shooting well wide, barracking your team mates when you fu.ck up, pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play, short passes, not pressing the opposition, long humps upfield and the slackest marking for a number of years are 10% of the problem.

Whereas 90% of the problem is where Benitez tells them to stand ?

Ok mate we obviously know what side of the fence you are on, and fair play to you, i wish i could be as positive and believe in the managers methods as much as you and some others do.
But a question for you, do you think Rafa is in any way to blame for this slump in form, results etc ? If so what percentage would you say is his fault ?

I do yes.

I think that he has made some strange decisions regarding substitutions, and I think he could improve on this.

I also beleive that he should have made sure we got cover in at centre half in the summer, and there should have been a plan B (to Heinzes plan A).

I am sure that rotation is important, and we need to keep people fresh, however I think that we need to play a spine of the team week in week out. I think that Reina, Carra, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres should play all the league games regardless.

Notice the way two of the important aspects of ths spine are in fact missing through injury, I beleive this is having a bigger impact than people will allow themselves to admit. We hoof it cus Agger and Alonso are not there to play it out of the back.

Gerrard is equally out of form bigtime, and he needs a rest/kick up the @rse. However it will simply be impossible with the above two missing, and another stick to beat Rafa with is he does it and we dont get the result.

Whats up with you Leon? Don't you get it, its Rafa fault when we play poorly (well 90.789563332% of the time). But any trophies have been won in spite of Rafa.

4 finals, won two, lost two,

istanbul, injury forced his hand to bring on hamman
carling cup, no real complaints
FA cup, injury time equaliser against a team that nearly got relegated the following season, they scored 3 goals
Athens, got it very badly wrong and made some mystifying substitutions

yes we won them mate, but it was no stroll in the park, in fact it was quite the opposite and that stat was very close to 4 finals, no wins

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:01 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:90% down to tactics and 10% the players ?

So not being able to find a red shirt, shooting well wide, barracking your team mates when you fu.ck up, pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play, short passes, not pressing the opposition, long humps upfield and the slackest marking for a number of years are 10% of the problem.

Whereas 90% of the problem is where Benitez tells them to stand ?

Ok mate we obviously know what side of the fence you are on, and fair play to you, i wish i could be as positive and believe in the managers methods as much as you and some others do.
But a question for you, do you think Rafa is in any way to blame for this slump in form, results etc ? If so what percentage would you say is his fault ?

I do yes.

I think that he has made some strange decisions regarding substitutions, and I think he could improve on this.

I also beleive that he should have made sure we got cover in at centre half in the summer, and there should have been a plan B (to Heinzes plan A).

I am sure that rotation is important, and we need to keep people fresh, however I think that we need to play a spine of the team week in week out. I think that Reina, Carra, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres should play all the league games regardless.

Notice the way two of the important aspects of ths spine are in fact missing through injury, I beleive this is having a bigger impact than people will allow themselves to admit. We hoof it cus Agger and Alonso are not there to play it out of the back.

Gerrard is equally out of form bigtime, and he needs a rest/kick up the @rse. However it will simply be impossible with the above two missing, and another stick to beat Rafa with is he does it and we dont get the result.

I would agree with all of that mate and i am surprised by your answer as you have defended the manager through all of these threads. It actually seems like....i'll stick by him through thick and thin mentality even though you are not 100 % sure he is doing things totally right, but i suppose supporting the team means supporting the manager so fair enough.
I am total agreement about the spine of the team, and think thats were all of this/these arguments started, the leaving out Torres in 2 league games was a mistake. But like you said rotating the rest of the players is not a major problem.
As you said we are sorely missing both Agger and Alonso as they help us keep posession and build attacks, despite what Stu says we have played like a different team with Agger in instead of Hyypia and dont needlessly concede posession half as much.
Gerrards form is a concern, we all know he has had problems with his form at times in the past, remember THAT leverkusen game when everything he did went wrong, sort of like Sissoko's performance the other night. I'm not sure what would be the best thing to do, he seems to have lost a bit of confidence and Rafa is not exactly an arm round the shoulder manager...lets just hope that Stevie can pull himself out of it.
I actually think playing the Derby next could be a blessing in disguise, we are going into it short of form and confidence but often come back fighting when our backs have been against the wall and we have been written off.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:14 am

Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:90% down to tactics and 10% the players ?

So not being able to find a red shirt, shooting well wide, barracking your team mates when you fu.ck up, pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play, short passes, not pressing the opposition, long humps upfield and the slackest marking for a number of years are 10% of the problem.

Whereas 90% of the problem is where Benitez tells them to stand ?

Ok mate we obviously know what side of the fence you are on, and fair play to you, i wish i could be as positive and believe in the managers methods as much as you and some others do.
But a question for you, do you think Rafa is in any way to blame for this slump in form, results etc ? If so what percentage would you say is his fault ?

I do yes.

I think that he has made some strange decisions regarding substitutions, and I think he could improve on this.

I also beleive that he should have made sure we got cover in at centre half in the summer, and there should have been a plan B (to Heinzes plan A).

I am sure that rotation is important, and we need to keep people fresh, however I think that we need to play a spine of the team week in week out. I think that Reina, Carra, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres should play all the league games regardless.

Notice the way two of the important aspects of ths spine are in fact missing through injury, I beleive this is having a bigger impact than people will allow themselves to admit. We hoof it cus Agger and Alonso are not there to play it out of the back.

Gerrard is equally out of form bigtime, and he needs a rest/kick up the @rse. However it will simply be impossible with the above two missing, and another stick to beat Rafa with is he does it and we dont get the result.

I would agree with all of that mate and i am surprised by your answer as you have defended the manager through all of these threads. It actually seems like....i'll stick by him through thick and thin mentality even though you are not 100 % sure he is doing things totally right, but i suppose supporting the team means supporting the manager so fair enough.
I am total agreement about the spine of the team, and think thats were all of this/these arguments started, the leaving out Torres in 2 league games was a mistake. But like you said rotating the rest of the players is not a major problem.
As you said we are sorely missing both Agger and Alonso as they help us keep posession and build attacks, despite what Stu says we have played like a different team with Agger in instead of Hyypia and dont needlessly concede posession half as much.
Gerrards form is a concern, we all know he has had problems with his form at times in the past, remember THAT leverkusen game when everything he did went wrong, sort of like Sissoko's performance the other night. I'm not sure what would be the best thing to do, he seems to have lost a bit of confidence and Rafa is not exactly an arm round the shoulder manager...lets just hope that Stevie can pull himself out of it.
I actually think playing the Derby next could be a blessing in disguise, we are going into it short of form and confidence but often come back fighting when our backs have been against the wall and we have been written off.

I have not mindlessly defended the manager.

I have however refused to subscribe to the clubs that many on this forum like to:

1) taking some kind of enjoyment out of slating him, relishing the opportunity to bash him and giving hte "I told you so" garbage when it doesnt go well

2) making out like we would have won what we have won over the last three years wether Rafa was here or not, and in fact it was not him but the players who won competition, but in the same breath its now him and not the players who are at fault when we dont win

3) use the same thing all the time to reason for our poor form (rotation) without any stats to back it up or at times any knowledge about it. For istance "50 changes is a joke" when in fact 28 of these happened around the Tolouse and Reading games which CAN NOT be looked at in the same vein, and when only 2 changes where made (Porto to Birmingham game) when we still drew.

4) Ask for the manager to leave when we have lost one game which was on the scale of things was not the end of the world and we remain un beaten in the League and six points behind top spot (who are a team that are yet to drop points, and therefore WILL drop points soon) DESPITE the fact we are so bad

I will defend the manager against idiots and know nothing fickle fans ALL day.

I will also be happy to discuss sensible reasons for poor form.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:17 am

Rotation policy has put Liverpool in a spin
By Alan Hansen
Last Updated: 12:30am BST 08/10/2007

Six weeks ago, Liverpool had just beaten Derby County 6-0 at Anfield and the hope and optimism surrounding the club went through the roof with real expectation that this could finally be the year that, for the first time since 1990, the title would be heading back to Merseyside.

Yet four league games later, Liverpool are playing like a team of strangers with their confidence draining away. They got out of jail with a 91st-minute equaliser against Tottenham yesterday.

One of my former managers at Liverpool, Joe Fagan, once remarked that football was a simple game with simple explanations and simple team selections. The easier you make it, the easier it is to go on long winning runs, but it is all down to simplicity of selection.

Ever since the Derby result, though, Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez has continued his rotation policy by making four or five changes for every game that his team play. Rotation is great when you are winning because nobody can criticise it, but once you start struggling, people will automatically go and look for the reason why and, during those last four games, Liverpool have never had the same team twice.

After winning at Sunderland and then pummelling Derby, I feel that Rafa really missed a trick when he selected his team for the following game against Portsmouth at Fratton Park. The fact that the match came straight after an international break didn't help, but his team were winning with confidence and we all expected to see Steven Gerrard, Ryan Babel and Fernando Torres at Portsmouth, yet none of them started.

Portsmouth is a tough place for any team to go and get a result, but Liverpool could have gone there, played their best team and achieved the victory that would have put out a real statement.

As it was, they failed to score, then had another goalless draw at home to Birmingham before narrowly beating Wigan and then losing at home to Marseille with a horrific performance in the Champions League in midweek. So just six weeks after the huge optimism, it is beginning to be doom and gloom.

Since the international break, Steven Gerrard has not been at his best and the surging runs haven't been there, but the team have not played well either, and it is not a good sign that Liverpool's results and performances have dropped off with Gerrard's own displays.

And Peter Crouch continues to be left out of the team and not even on the bench. We are all looking in from the outside wondering what the situation is because Crouch has shown time and again that he can change games in the final 20 minutes, but Benitez has his ideas about every player and maybe he has made his mind up about him.

As the manager, Benitez is entitled to listen to nobody, but with the recent results, he has to look at the problem and find a solution, but the obvious solution from where I am would be to stop rotating his players so much.

Benitez appears to have too many considerations in his mind when he picks his team. He thinks about who Liverpool are playing next week, if his players are tired, how they played last week and how their opponents play.

But the guys that I played under at Liverpool would simply have picked their best team and Benitez needs to do that for the next five or six games and hope that his players play themselves out of their poor run. The fact that he has only named one unchanged team in 153 games amazes me, so I guess the chances of him now keeping the same team for six games are pie in the sky.

There is no question that rotation has to happen in the modern game, but my experience is that tiredness doesn't affect players when they are winning, yet if you tell a player he is tired, then he will be. It is all psychological. When I was at Liverpool, we never heard the word 'tired'.

The one trophy that everybody at Liverpool wants more than any other is the Premier League and that is why people will suddenly grasp any belief that this could be the year. And despite the recent poor performances, let's not forget that Liverpool have still not lost a Premier League game this season.

Benitez's ideas about rotation revolve around having his players fit and fresh towards the end of the season, yet when it comes down to it, there is no point having your players fit and flying when there is nothing left to play for.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:17 am

peewee wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:90% down to tactics and 10% the players ?

So not being able to find a red shirt, shooting well wide, barracking your team mates when you fu.ck up, pulling yer shirt over yer head like a kid when the game is still in play, short passes, not pressing the opposition, long humps upfield and the slackest marking for a number of years are 10% of the problem.

Whereas 90% of the problem is where Benitez tells them to stand ?

Ok mate we obviously know what side of the fence you are on, and fair play to you, i wish i could be as positive and believe in the managers methods as much as you and some others do.
But a question for you, do you think Rafa is in any way to blame for this slump in form, results etc ? If so what percentage would you say is his fault ?

I do yes.

I think that he has made some strange decisions regarding substitutions, and I think he could improve on this.

I also beleive that he should have made sure we got cover in at centre half in the summer, and there should have been a plan B (to Heinzes plan A).

I am sure that rotation is important, and we need to keep people fresh, however I think that we need to play a spine of the team week in week out. I think that Reina, Carra, Agger, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres should play all the league games regardless.

Notice the way two of the important aspects of ths spine are in fact missing through injury, I beleive this is having a bigger impact than people will allow themselves to admit. We hoof it cus Agger and Alonso are not there to play it out of the back.

Gerrard is equally out of form bigtime, and he needs a rest/kick up the @rse. However it will simply be impossible with the above two missing, and another stick to beat Rafa with is he does it and we dont get the result.

Whats up with you Leon? Don't you get it, its Rafa fault when we play poorly (well 90.789563332% of the time). But any trophies have been won in spite of Rafa.

4 finals, won two, lost two,

istanbul, injury forced his hand to bring on hamman
carling cup, no real complaints
FA cup, injury time equaliser against a team that nearly got relegated the following season, they scored 3 goals
Athens, got it very badly wrong and made some mystifying substitutions

yes we won them mate, but it was no stroll in the park, in fact it was quite the opposite and that stat was very close to 4 finals, no wins

How on earth was it the players who won us those competitions and games and NOTHING to do with Rafa who was just in the right place at the right time

AND

now its nothing to do with the players who stick by Rafa's evey word and are completely subservient to his orders and IN FACT all Rafa's fault now.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:21 am

I will defend the manager against idiots and know nothing fickle fans ALL day

I wouldnt call me/us Fickle for critising the manager, and I dont think there are many people on these boards who "enjoy slating the manager"

FWIW I think most us are saying it just as we see it, and what infuriates me is the way other posters cannot see no wrong in what the manager is doing.

Liverpool FC Forum

The rotation thread - All "R" talk in here please!

Who is online