Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

I thought I'd give it a miss on here for a bit, as the last time I was on people were getting banned left right and centre. There were two or three threads running concurrently where I was getting called all the c's going by a bunch of people and it seemed impossible to make any sensible points about football without setting off a cocophony of outrage. Even if the point made was the most innocuous and inoffensive one imaginable, still the forest fires flared up without seemingly needing any fuel whatsoever. Anyway, I enjoyed my little sabatical (as no doubt did many others), and as things seem to have calmed down a bit I thought it was as good a time as any to return.

Firstly, to briefly revisit the issues which caused World War three, which were in no particular order;

That the Premiership isn't probably the strongest it's ever been since its inception.
When you talk about this, it doesn't matter how often you write that you really don't give a sh!t either way, or that it doesn't diminish our achievement 1% if we win it, as far as people were concerned it's a slag off of the manager. Quite why it's the reddest of red rags to some bulls is a bit of a mystery to me if I'm totally honest. I've said many times that at the start of the season, the objective isn't to be better than Arsenal's "invincibles" were, nor to be more efficient than Chelsea under Mourinho, nor to be better than the best Man Utd team whichever it was over the last fifteen years or so. No, the objective is to get more points than all the other teams THAT season. It doesn't even matter one iota if that points total is a record low for the winners, as long as it's more than everyone else then you win the league, everything else is completely immaterial.

All that said, I stand by my opinion FWIW that this is a relatively weak Premiership. Anybody who saw any of Chelsea's capitulation at the weekend couldn't sensibly argue that they are as strong as they have been, nor could you take a stance that this Arsenal's best team in recent memory either. I've said before why I think if you look at the teams in each position I think it's a relatively weak league so no need to do that again. Anyway, with all the usual caveats (I don't care, it doesn't matter at all, it's largely irrelevent anyway etc etc) I do stick with my original opinion. Sorry if it unhinges some people and makes them want to get a posse up and hunt me like a dog, but it remains my assessment anyhow and there it is.

Ill do the next one in a new post otherwise it'll be the longest and most boring in history. As I already hold the record, there seems little point in beating it and I'll split my weeks worth of thoughts up.

[Effes]

  Your opening paragragh made me laugh Mick.

I actually agree, this season it's a bit weak.
But that hasn't stopped teams coming to Anfield and getting a draw, which has been
all the more frustrating.

[bigmick]

As I've got the forum to myself, I'll press on with the next issue which sent many people into "froth at the mouth" mode. I also want to talk about what happened over the last week but I'll clear up (from my point of view anyway) the old stuff first.

I did say that I thought Rafa had the enviable quality of being a "lucky" manager. The point I made was who else could buy Keane and Dossena for a combined fee of 28 million quid, and then not actually have either in his first choice eleven without coming under huge pressure for "wasting money"? Why no pressure? Cos we're top of the league If we weren't top of the league, the knives would be out, but they aren't, and nor should they be.

I did say that we weren't top of the league as the result of him being a "lucky" manager, nor did we win things because he was/is a lucky manager. I also said that his success as a manager wasn't just because he was/is "lucky. This last bit must have been in invisible ink or something though, because once again it caused a bit of a storm. Anyway, I kind of meant it like people apparently used to say Napolean was a lucky general. Anyway, just to clarify on that one (not that it'll make any difference I shouldn't think) I wasn't saying he is a sh!t manager, wasn't having a pop at him etc etc.

The other thing which seemed to wind people up was that I predicted (people don't seem to like predictions) that we were about to up the "styling". No need to go into it here what my opinion is on the idea, but just the prediction itself seemed to upset the applecart. Anyway I didn't see anything at the weeked which made me change my opinion, I think we are going to see plenty of styling from here on in and they're just going to have to get used to it I think.

Lastly, don't ask me why I think this because I can't give you a sensible answer. Needless to say I don't think there is a sensible reason for it, and it's not like I'm privvie to the inner workings of Melwood (as some posters never tire of telling me), but I've just got a feeling. If I'm wrong, call me a c... till the cows come home. Failing that, you can call me a c... anyway without actually waiting to see if I was right or not, that seems to be the way of things these days. If I'm right, who cares anyway? Not me that's for certain. As long as we win the League, I couldn't give a feck if Rafa plays himself up top with Rick Parry in goal. I'm simply having a guess that we're about to go on a styling spree, nothing more and nothing less.

[bigmick]

  Your opening paragragh made me laugh Mick.

I actually agree, this season it's a bit weak.
But that hasn't stopped teams coming to Anfield and getting a draw, which has been
all the more frustrating.

Sorry Eff I didn't see you there getting in. Yes I suppose the question is, are the teams getting points at Anfield because they are actually stronger than you could reasonably assume given their league position, or are we infact not as good perhaps as some of the teams which have led the Premiership at Christmas have been?

Now I think it's the latter. Once again, I don't care/it's irrelevent as long as we win it etc etc etc etc but that's my opinion. I don't think in terms of the big four there is a reasonable and sensible counter argument to be totally honest, it's in the positions below that that there is a debate.

It looks like Aston Villa may well break into the top four this season which is a marvelous achievement for them. Whether they are a better team than we were on the occasions when we finished in the top four previously is an interesting question. I don't think they are TBH, but I know that many seemingly disagree. It's an interesting one.

I personally don't think there's any shame in winning the Premiership, and not being the all-time great best team which has ever played in the competition. For many though, this is seemingly blasphemous but there you go.

Anyway, like I've consistently said, I don't give a sh!t anyway.

[bigmick]

Onto this weeks events. Starting with Rafa's spat with Fergie.

Now I know it's strange me the knee jerker saying this, but I think it's far too early to call whether it was a smart move or not. Now obviously there is absolutely no debate that Rafa was spot on with his "facts", it is a fecking disgrace the preferential treatment the Mancs get and it has been the case for many a year. I actually think he could have gone further, they are a bunch of fecking cheating c.... and have been allowed to play the role of school bullies for far too long.

The reason though that I think it's too early to call, is quite simply this. In life, the victors write the history books. If we win the league, it'll be a "masterstroke" by the manager and rightly so. If we don't, it'll be the "moment that he lost it, the breaking point when Fergie outdid him in the mind games". It was the same with Keegan. When he got justifiably wound up with Fergusons outrageous remarks about teams throwing games against Newcastle, it became a "rant" and "Keegan lost it" after Man Utd went on to win the title. The truth was the bounce of the ball deserted them on the run in, and had it gone different Keegans "rant" would have become the "moment of passion and up and at em spirit which drove Newcastle over the line".

I've no problem with what Rafa did or said. If it works and we win the title, he'll be justified in taking all the praise. If we don't, it will be remembered rightly or wrongly as the moment he "lost it". I should also say it matters a whole lot less as far as our performances or their is concerend than the press would probably have you believe IMHO.

[bigmick]

The last post from me for a while in the parapet thread. The Stoke game at the weekend. A couple of questions.

Firstly, what was the team selection all about? If you play with one up front, and that one up front never scores a goal (which he doesn't if he plays up front, and infact after a wee golden spell earlier in the season doesn't wherever he plays), you surely shouldn't be surpirsed if it ends up 0-0. Yes there's a chance that Gerrard may rescue us again which he almost did as it happens, but you significantly increase the chances that you'll fail to score a goal.

Now I know many have said that Keane can have no complaints because he's sh!t/couldn't hit a cows erse with a banjo/eukeleli etc etc, but is there anybody who thinks he isn't a better bet up top than Kuyt? Similarly, if he is as bad some are making out, the question begs to be asked, why did we spend 20 million quid on him five months ago then? Seriously, if he can't get a game when he's scored three in three league games, Torres is seemingly not fit and the other option is moving our best right midfielder up there, you have to wonder. Very strange.

Other than that it was a bitterly disappointing result. Yes as Supersub pointed out we increased our lead at the top, but nontheless it was poor all round. Sorry for not being a "real fan" and all that, but we are going to need to do much better and quickly otherwise the Mancs will p!ss the thing. Anyway, nice to be back.

[Lando_Griffin]

As I've got the forum to myself, I'll press on with the next issue which sent many people into "froth at the mouth" mode. I also want to talk about what happened over the last week but I'll clear up (from my point of view anyway) the old stuff first.

I did say that I thought Rafa had the enviable quality of being a "lucky" manager. The point I made was who else could buy Keane and Dossena for a combined fee of 28 million quid, and then not actually have either in his first choice eleven without coming under huge pressure for "wasting money"? Why no pressure? Cos we're top of the league If we weren't top of the league, the knives would be out, but they aren't, and nor should they be.

I did say that we weren't top of the league as the result of him being a "lucky" manager, nor did we win things because he was/is a lucky manager. I also said that his success as a manager wasn't just because he was/is "lucky. This last bit must have been in invisible ink or something though, because once again it caused a bit of a storm. Anyway, I kind of meant it like people apparently used to say Napolean was a lucky general. Anyway, just to clarify on that one (not that it'll make any difference I shouldn't think) I wasn't saying he is a sh!t manager, wasn't having a pop at him etc etc.

The other thing which seemed to wind people up was that I predicted (people don't seem to like predictions) that we were about to up the "styling". No need to go into it here what my opinion is on the idea, but just the prediction itself seemed to upset the applecart. Anyway I didn't see anything at the weeked which made me change my opinion, I think we are going to see plenty of styling from here on in and they're just going to have to get used to it I think.

Lastly, don't ask me why I think this because I can't give you a sensible answer. Needless to say I don't think there is a sensible reason for it, and it's not like I'm privvie to the inner workings of Melwood (as some posters never tire of telling me), but I've just got a feeling. If I'm wrong, call me a c... till the cows come home. Failing that, you can call me a c... anyway without actually waiting to see if I was right or not, that seems to be the way of things these days. If I'm right, who cares anyway not me that's for certain. As long as we win the League, I couldn't give a feck if Rafa plays himself up top with Rick Parry in goal. I'm simply having a guess that we're about to go on a styling spree, nothing more and nothing less.

All the talk of rotation being a thing of the past was obviously said by those not altogether up on Rafa's methods. (Or those too blinded by their hate of the regime.) The bloke believes in rotation with his heart and soul, and has categorically used the system at every club he has had the freedom to manage.

I seem to remember someone suggesting that Rafa was merely alternating his "run-in" phase with his "styling" (courtesy of you, Mick) one. Ergo, the continuity was to be found at the beginning of the season, then the rotation began at the mid-way point, in direct contrast to the previous years.

I agree with this theory. I also think that we won't find the annual "run-in" form we are noted for as a result of the shift. (Best form in the league from October-May, as was once suggested.) I think we will continue to huff and puff our way through the season and more or less mirror the start of the campaign, with a few anomaly results.

Of course, I hope I am wrong and we kick on from here, and start putting teams to the sword. An unlikely win at Old Trafford would be nice. (But then, we could be miles adrift by then.)

I would love us to sign a quality creative player to add that bit of spark to our final third. An Aimar-esk diamond who can unlock the tightest of defences as well as score 5-10 winning goals.

Anyone who thinks that Rafa doesn't want that, too, is living in dreamworld. The owners just aren't offering the dosh to buy the 1 player this squad so desperately needs.

Heskey at £4m? F*ck that. Benfica took the p*ss when they signed Aimar for c.£4m last summer. He's only played 7 times for the sh*thouses, and would be eligible for the Champions' League.

Let's see if we can take the p*ss a bit for a change and bring the little wizzard to Anfield...

[account deleted by request]

Onto this weeks events. Starting with Rafa's spat with Fergie.

Now I know it's strange me the knee jerker saying this, but I think it's far too early to call whether it was a smart move or not. Now obviously there is absolutely no debate that Rafa was spot on with his "facts", it is a fecking disgrace the preferential treatment the Mancs get and it has been the case for many a year. I actually think he could have gone further, they are a bunch of fecking cheating c.... and have been allowed to play the role of school bullies for far too long.

The reason though that I think it's too early to call, is quite simply this. In life, the victors write the history books. If we win the league, it'll be a "masterstroke" by the manager and rightly so. If we don't, it'll be the "moment that he lost it, the breaking point when Fergie outdid him in the mind games". It was the same with Keegan. When he got justifiably wound up with Fergusons outrageous remarks about teams throwing games against Newcastle, it became a "rant" and "Keegan lost it" after Man Utd went on to win the title. The truth was the bounce of the ball deserted them on the run in, and had it gone different Keegans "rant" would have become the "moment of passion and up and at em spirit which drove Newcastle over the line".

I've no problem with what Rafa did or said. If it works and we win the title, he'll be justified in taking all the praise. If we don't, it will be remembered rightly or wrongly as the moment he "lost it". I should also say it matters a whole lot less as far as our performances or their is concerend than the press would probably have you believe IMHO.

Up to yesterday I would have agreed with you Mick, but I am just reading a Bob Paisley biography at the moment, and I was surprised at how much he thought the psycological aspect had on results, and how often he played "mind games" with other sides. He really seemed to place a lot of emphasis on the psychological side of the game.

I am just up to were Liverpool played Aberdeen in the European Cup. (The only time Paisley and Fergie met head to head) Fergie made sure that all the Scottish press was full of how great a team Aberdeen were and what they were going to do to Liverpool. Supposedly one paper had 27 pages of the 28 just on how Aberdeen were going to thrash Liverpool.

Paisley said he just "threw Aberdeen some toffee". Told the press that he thought that Gordon Strachan was going to be the first £2million pound player etc etc.

He said the one thing you should never do is give the opposition any sort of verbal challenge, because when players have a point to prove, more often than not they will rise to the occasion. Save all the challenges for your own team etc etc. 

Seemed to work against Aberdeen anyway we won 5-0 on aggregate


BTW Great to see you back Mick, but keep bobbing and weaving as I think the lunatics have taken over the asylum at the moment mate.   

[Owzat]

Not sure our inability to beat teams we should be is in any way related to the strength or weakness of the Premiership. Rafa has had a tendancy to draw games in the Premiership, perhaps not getting that wins are what you need to land the league title and draws can be counterproductive - not so much a point gained as two dropped.

In his first two seasons we drew seven games a season, 04/05 containing too many defeats. Our record points tally under Rafa/in the Premiership came in 05/06 when we won 25 games - two shy of the figure I say we need to reach. But since then we've drawn more not won more, we won 42 games in the first two seasons and only 54 since - an incremental increase from 55.26% win rate to 55.67% - 27 wins a season is a rate of 71.05%.

BUT, I believe this season may be an opportunity to win with less than 27 wins, or at least the standard seems lower within the 'big four'. Chelsea haven't beaten any of their 'big four' rivals in FOUR games of which three were at home. Arsenal have already lost more games than any of the 'big four' did all of last season. Last season saw a team with 83 points finish third, that could be a peak of high standards in the Premiership

Champions

07/08 87 points
06/07 89 points
05/06 91 points
04/05 95 points
03/04 90 points
02/03 83 points
01/02 87 points
00/01 80 points
99/00 91 points

So our best points tally (82) wouldn't have won any Premiership in the last seven. It would have won it in 00/01, and three seasons consecutive from  96/97 to 98/99

Runners-Up

07/08 85 points
06/07 83 points
05/06 83 points
04/05 83 points
03/04 79 points
02/03 78 points
01/02 80 points (Liverpool)
00/01 70 points
99/00 73 points

So prior to Chelsea landing Mourinho's $$$, the challengers to the mancs were Arsenal and we lifted the standard for finishing runners-up to a new level in 01/02 - t'was the best points tally for 2nd in the Premiership (since bested) Sadly if that is the peak of our achievements, raising the level of points in finishing 2nd and 3rd then we may be hoping for another league title a bit soon.

3rd

07/08 83 points
06/07 68 points (Liverpool)
05/06 82 points (Liverpool)
04/05 77 points
03/04 75 points
02/03 69 points
01/02 77 points
00/01 69 points (Liverpool)
99/00 69 points (LEEDS!)

Might indicate the top clubs are stronger and the rest much of a muchness, which would make our struggles to beat the rest even more annoying come frustrating. To not beat newly promoted and struggling Stoke, and see the mancs knock in three against the team second in the table beggards belief - asked to guess which game would be 3-0 and which 0-0 before the game, I would say most would have said the scores would be the other way around - less than you might normally expect though because of 0-0s against Stoke, Fulham and West Ham at home.


The key for me lies in Rafa, not can the team raise their performances but can RAFA? Tactically he isn't cutting it in my book, his selections seem a bit too political re Keane and his substitutions might be best left in Sammy's hands since it's rare any of us can even make sense of the substitutions. He got one right in bringing on Torres against Stoke, or wrong if you hold the view Torres should have been on the pitch to start with. He's playing Kuyt out of his best position, playing arguably our best CB at RB and to continue playing three in the middle he's opting for Lucas of whom this forum has mixed views. Keane didn't even get on, fuelling the debate further over his use and how his confidence can be lifted - or even if this should be an issue.


This season is a GOLDEN opportunity for us to win our long awaited next league title. We're top and right in the mix, something not usual for us at this stage of the season. With Chelsea looking weaker than usual and the mancs having lots of extra games to distract them, we need to take advantage. If we don't even manage to be the nearest challengers to the mancs and take it close then we may not get a better chance.

So FFS Rafa, sort yourself and the tactics out. Hopefully your contract issue will be sorted by Monday, if only to get that out of the way as a potential excuse for problems on the pitch. Our players are better than in most of the rest of the Premiership, if we can start beating those and get better than decent results against the 'big four' then there's no reason we can't be champions. Keep throwing points away carelessly and we'll be maybe just one place better off than last season. TOO MANY DRAWS

[milou]

Finally, some footy discussion instead of all the name-calling and one-liners that go on and on...

1) Is this year's league weakest?
I think it is a VERY subjective question to answer.. But there is little doubt that it is DIFFERENT this year. In fact, I could even easily argue it is the strongest (It is just another way to look at it). If 8pts is what separating the bottom club with team no8 in the table now, why can't it mean that the general standard has improved?

If the "big fours" are dropping more points this year - often against the SAME "smaller" teams, isn't there an remote possibility that the "smaller" teams are indeed stronger this year? FWIW, we must not forget that the "big fours" (with possibly the only exception of Arsenal) have retained the same players respectively from last year, with some even further strengthening with arguably better players (berbatov, keane).

2) As for Rafa's "outburst"..
I totally agree with Mick that "In life, the victors write the history books." He did what he thought was right at that point of time and we can only wait & see how it pans out.

I personally think Rafa did it to plant a seed in all the referees' mind - hoping that in time of ambiguity in future, certain key decisions MAY be swayed in our favor.

It may sound silly to some of you but I have read MANY similar concepts that work on the sub-conscious mind. Now all the referees have HEARD the comments and whether they like it or not, they will REMEMBER it.

Have you seen soft penalties given in matches after a string of ambiguous (but correct) decisions went unpunished.. often with intense pestering and complaints? Isn't each decision independent of one another? Unfortunately not.. Psychology plays a big part.

I don't think it is a co-incidence that managers or players like to come out to say certain things on purpose, often before big games.

[heimdall]

Finally, some footy discussion instead of all the name-calling and one-liners that go on and on...

1) Is this year's league weakest?
I think it is a VERY subjective question to answer.. But there is little doubt that it is DIFFERENT this year. In fact, I could even easily argue it is the strongest (It is just another way to look at it). If 8pts is what separating the bottom club with team no8 in the table now, why can't it mean that the general standard has improved?

If the "big fours" are dropping more points this year - often against the SAME "smaller" teams, isn't there an remote possibility that the "smaller" teams are indeed stronger this year? FWIW, we must not forget that the "big fours" (with possibly the only exception of Arsenal) have retained the same players respectively from last year, with some even further strengthening with arguably better players (berbatov, keane).

2) As for Rafa's "outburst"..
I totally agree with Mick that "In life, the victors write the history books." He did what he thought was right at that point of time and we can only wait & see how it pans out.

I personally think Rafa did it to plant a seed in all the referees' mind - hoping that in time of ambiguity in future, certain key decisions MAY be swayed in our favor.

It may sound silly to some of you but I have read MANY similar concepts that work on the sub-conscious mind. Now all the referees have HEARD the comments and whether they like it or not, they will REMEMBER it.

Have you seen soft penalties given in matches after a string of ambiguous (but correct) decisions went unpunished.. often with intense pestering and complaints? Isn't each decision independent of one another? Unfortunately not.. Psychology plays a big part.

I don't think it is a co-incidence that managers or players like to come out to say certain things on purpose, often before big games.

Rafa's rant effect on referees, subliminal or otherwise, will be that they will feel annoyed at him for insuating that they take Man Utd's side, that will not work in our favour as every single 50-50 will now be awarded to the oppo as the refs will feel p1ssed off at us.

For what it's worth I think the league is much more even this season but I would also say that none of the top teams are firing on all cylinders, including us. It's like one of those wacky races on Top Gear, who can get their failing motor to the finishing line first. 

[GYBS]

Or maybe Heimdall they wont be giving the Mancs many 50/50s cause they know the media and everyone will be watching them to try and pick up on any bias they may show towards the mancs , so refs maybe stronger against them .

[Homebooby]

I thought I'd give it a miss on here for a bit, as the last time I was on people were getting banned left right and centre. There were two or three threads running concurrently where I was getting called all the c's going by a bunch of people and it seemed impossible to make any sensible points about football without setting off a cocophony of outrage. Even if the point made was the most innocuous and inoffensive one imaginable, still the forest fires flared up without seemingly needing any fuel whatsoever. Anyway, I enjoyed my little sabatical (as no doubt did many others), and as things seem to have calmed down a bit I thought it was as good a time as any to return.

Firstly, to briefly revisit the issues which caused World War three, which were in no particular order;

That the Premiership isn't probably the strongest it's ever been since its inception.
When you talk about this, it doesn't matter how often you write that you really don't give a sh!t either way, or that it doesn't diminish our achievement 1% if we win it, as far as people were concerned it's a slag off of the manager. Quite why it's the reddest of red rags to some bulls is a bit of a mystery to me if I'm totally honest. I've said many times that at the start of the season, the objective isn't to be better than Arsenal's "invincibles" were, nor to be more efficient than Chelsea under Mourinho, nor to be better than the best Man Utd team whichever it was over the last fifteen years or so. No, the objective is to get more points than all the other teams THAT season. It doesn't even matter one iota if that points total is a record low for the winners, as long as it's more than everyone else then you win the league, everything else is completely immaterial.

All that said, I stand by my opinion FWIW that this is a relatively weak Premiership. Anybody who saw any of Chelsea's capitulation at the weekend couldn't sensibly argue that they are as strong as they have been, nor could you take a stance that this Arsenal's best team in recent memory either. I've said before why I think if you look at the teams in each position I think it's a relatively weak league so no need to do that again. Anyway, with all the usual caveats (I don't care, it doesn't matter at all, it's largely irrelevent anyway etc etc) I do stick with my original opinion. Sorry if it unhinges some people and makes them want to get a posse up and hunt me like a dog, but it remains my assessment anyhow and there it is.

Ill do the next one in a new post otherwise it'll be the longest and most boring in history. As I already hold the record, there seems little point in beating it and I'll split my weeks worth of thoughts up.

Nice to see the old warhorse again.

I have to say that I have been saying for a while now that I think the exact opposite that the close runnings this year are a sign of teams getting closer together. I think that this is a result of a change in signing from the big 4 in the last few years. There was a time when ManU and Chelsea were sucking up any player that looked like he could play and throw him on the bench to avoid anyone else using him. In my opinion that stopped a couple of seasons ago and the players have gone elsewhere. That's the first reason.

The second reason I think that it is a stronger league is that in recent years, promoted sides have come up and had a real go and have not fallen foul of the giving the big teams too much respect problem and have shown that they aren't infallible and can be got at. The impact has been twofold in giving others hope and planting at least a seed of doubt in the teams at the top.

I think that it is easy to be convinced of your own superiority and have a winning attitude when you are 1000's points ahead by the end of the year, each year and that perpetuated the fear of the teams too. What we're now talking about is true grit and belief and seemingly Utd have it way more than Chelsea at the moment.

We had it, lost it for a few years and started to gain it back with the drive of Stevie and Jamie for example and I think we have turned the foreigners around now as well, Riera and Torres for isntance have the swagger of a winner to me as do most of our midfield I think. I think for that reason we have dug out all the points that we did in the first half of the season.

That's just my thoughts and reasoning on the whole thing. Maybe I am too optimistic 

It's the strongest premiership ever and we are leading it 

[devaney]

I thought I'd give it a miss on here for a bit, as the last time I was on people were getting banned left right and centre. There were two or three threads running concurrently where I was getting called all the c's going by a bunch of people and it seemed impossible to make any sensible points about football without setting off a cocophony of outrage. Even if the point made was the most innocuous and inoffensive one imaginable, still the forest fires flared up without seemingly needing any fuel whatsoever. Anyway, I enjoyed my little sabatical (as no doubt did many others), and as things seem to have calmed down a bit I thought it was as good a time as any to return.

Firstly, to briefly revisit the issues which caused World War three, which were in no particular order;

That the Premiership isn't probably the strongest it's ever been since its inception.
When you talk about this, it doesn't matter how often you write that you really don't give a sh!t either way, or that it doesn't diminish our achievement 1% if we win it, as far as people were concerned it's a slag off of the manager. Quite why it's the reddest of red rags to some bulls is a bit of a mystery to me if I'm totally honest. I've said many times that at the start of the season, the objective isn't to be better than Arsenal's "invincibles" were, nor to be more efficient than Chelsea under Mourinho, nor to be better than the best Man Utd team whichever it was over the last fifteen years or so. No, the objective is to get more points than all the other teams THAT season. It doesn't even matter one iota if that points total is a record low for the winners, as long as it's more than everyone else then you win the league, everything else is completely immaterial.

All that said, I stand by my opinion FWIW that this is a relatively weak Premiership. Anybody who saw any of Chelsea's capitulation at the weekend couldn't sensibly argue that they are as strong as they have been, nor could you take a stance that this Arsenal's best team in recent memory either. I've said before why I think if you look at the teams in each position I think it's a relatively weak league so no need to do that again. Anyway, with all the usual caveats (I don't care, it doesn't matter at all, it's largely irrelevent anyway etc etc) I do stick with my original opinion. Sorry if it unhinges some people and makes them want to get a posse up and hunt me like a dog, but it remains my assessment anyhow and there it is.

Ill do the next one in a new post otherwise it'll be the longest and most boring in history. As I already hold the record, there seems little point in beating it and I'll split my weeks worth of thoughts up.

Old ground Mick and nothing new. I like many others don't agree with your assessment of the Premiership in the same way that you don't agree with my positive assessment of Kuyt. Personally I think a lot of teams are stronger and that's where I think the Premiership is different but not weaker. Shocks will continue this season but not because the big four have capitulated. We lacked imagination against Stoke but they are incredibly hard work and we are not the first (Man United!) to struggle against them. Hull have simply been a revelation until quite recently. And they were two of the new teams to the Premiership this season.

I think more credit should be given to some of the teams that have made positive progress. I can only think of Newcastle this season out of our twenty matches that were a push over because they were so poor. Very easy to say that is because we haven't been at our best but that is a very simplistic way of looking at things and I for one am prepared to give the Premiership the credit it deserves - IT'S TOUGH !!

[bigmick]

I for one am prepared to give the Premiership the credit it deserves - IT'S TOUGH !!

No argument on that one mate, the toughest and best league in the World of that there isn't any debate at all. One other thing is also beyond any dispute, this is by far the most exciting Premiership race for years, and not just if you're a Liverpool fan. Nobody, not West Brom, Aston Villa, Man Utd nor Liverpool can be absolutely sure of their fate at this stage which is what football should be all about.

My guess is that if you were to go onto the Villa websites there'll be a thread asking if they've actually got a chance of winning the title. They haven't of course, but there'll be a couple who are daring to dream. Man City fans will be asking if there's still a chance that they can get into Europe next season (there is), while Middlesboro followers will be wondering if they're safe yet, (they're not).

I've long been an advocate of salary caps, limitation of size of squads etc etc and it's precisely this increase in competition, lessening of gaps between top and bottom which I'm all in favour of. Whether the league is more competitive because the top teams aren't as good, or whether it's because the lower teams are better is something which can be debated all day long, but the fact it is more exciting and a better league for it is beyond dispute I think.

Homebooby's point about the bigger clubs not hoovering up lesser teams best players (Ben Haim, Annelka, Bellamy, etc etc) is a very good one and an interesting potential reason why they've been able to improve if indeed they have. Definately worth some consideration that one.

As always though, any arguments are academic once it's been won. Hopefully wwe can win it this season, and then very soon afterwards and we can all debate which of our title winning teasms was the strongest. Once more it won't matter, if you win the league you win the league, simple as that really.