Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:06 pm

s@int wrote:The problem is Bob, that very good Centre Backs dont become available every year, at the moment there are a couple that we could probably get, Chivu who can also play left back for £8 million (if we can get in before Juventus) and Gabi Milito who would cost about the same (again if we can get in before Juventus)

We seem to be struggling to get the wingers or strikers we want, why not get the CB sorted while we have the chance.

Any other year I would agree with that, mate, but our needs are very pressing in attack and we simply can't afford to splash money on a CB if it costs us a chance at bringing in some real quality on the wing and up top. Personally, I'd rather miss out on a Gabriel Milito than on a Mancini, Malouda, Tevez or Torres at the moment.

TBH I wish we showed a bit more persistance when we go for player rather than switching from player to player (if the rumours are true). I realise price has a part to play but if we want a player, make sure they know that they are our first choice not just one on a list of prospective signings. We seem a bit too vague when it comes to who we want, and maybe losing players because of it. Neill while hardly a major loss was one such "loss" as was Boumsong under Houllier.

Player power has so much influence today that if we make sure the player wants to come to us and no one else we could perhaps get a few bargains. United did it with York and it appears Cisse is trying to do it with Marseilles.

I wonder if that's more to do with the press than with us (the jumping from player to player thing). It seems to me that Rafa is actually quite consistent in identifying targets and persisting with negotiations to get them. We were chasing Kuyt for over a year before we signed him, strong interest has been expressed in Alves for a couple of years now, Rafa was sizing up a move for Benayoun last year (if the Echo is to be believed) etc.

I think the issue has been that he and the board have been unwilling to "pay over the odds" for players they value, even if it costs us the chance of signing the player in the end. Now, I hope that's been somewhat put behind us. Now that we have new owners with some money to spend, I hope that we can clear the final hurdle with these targets and spend that extra few million that will bring them to Anfield. I have no doubt, though, that Rafa works hard behind the scenes to make prospective targets feel very wanted...most of our new signings say as much after they get here.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:06 pm

What everyone else reasonable has said about Agger... great young talent with plenty of potential and has proven his value to the team in the time he's been here, great reader of the game, fast learner. I can't think of many of his age who have done what he has. He needs to develop physically and improve his postioning more but that will come.

Woodgate is a very talented player but I'm glad we didn't go near him, his injuries make him too much of a risk.

by **Stu.Murph** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:18 pm

So instead we stick with players who are not good enough?

The problem with LFC over the years has been a loyalty to players who are not good enough to play for the club and the fact that people can't see the current players faults in perspective. To many people seem to think "our best 11 is as good as United on paper", all I have to say to that, is WAKE UP! We're absoloutely nowhere near United or Chelsea in terms of a first 11. Its only due to Arsenal having some poor players in there they don't have a better 11 as they have more quality players than we do.

There is only Steven Gerrard in our squad who would get into a league strongest 16. Beyond that you only have a case for Carragher, Reina and Alonso. But only a case, and none of them would touch the first 11. Beyond that there is no way any other player would get close with MAYBE the exception of Finnan, simply because the lack of quality right backs in england.

We only have one world class player in Gerrard and probably only Reina and Alonso can be considered "top class". Beyond that the squads very comparible so someone like Everton or Spurs or even Newcastle and West Ham.

The fact is, we are where we are due to a lack of quality players. We've got plenty of decent and good players, like Riise, Finnan, Agger, Crouch, Bellamy, Kuyt, Sissoko, Mascherano, Pennant, Kewell, Luis Garcia etc, what we need to do is go out an improve upon these players.

When I hear people saying things like Agger's ok and Crouch is ok, I wonder have they been playing to much football manger.

We need better players with better quality and better attributes.

After saying all this... our only signings have been two more kids who will do :censored:

all, a Brazilian central midfielder (like we don't have enough midfielders already) and a really poor free transfer striker who failed to hit double figures in any of his previous seasons...

In Rafa we trust.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:23 pm

We're fecked, let's get rid of Rafa, sell Kuyt, Agger, Riise, Crouch, Pennant, Sissoko, Mascherano and Carra. Then we can start from scratch.

In Rafa I don't trust

by **Sabre** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:29 pm

When I hear people saying things like Agger's ok and Crouch is ok, I wonder have they been playing to much football manger.

I watch football games since the computers load the games in 90 min tapes in 1984 or so. So no, I don't play too much football manager.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:42 pm

I think most people would agree that we need more quality players, but I think Mascherano is going to be a big player for us this season and will prove to be by far the best buy of last season (maybe thats not saying much

) I think Stu is being a bit hard on Agger who I think could be a very good player given time and experience. For the rest I agree they are good solid players as Stu says rather than outstanding, but with two or three quality additions we certainly have the basis of a very good, even title winning team.

Get the quality players we need, and in Rafa I will trust

by **JC_81** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:47 pm

Stu, I think you're having one of your 'glass is half empty' days to be honest mate.

I agree with a fair bit of what you say. Clearly we do lack enough real quality players, and I agree with your analysis that probably only Gerrard would walk into a league best 11. Beyond that as you say there's a case for Carra and Reina. Alonso I don't think would be anywhere near it.

But I think you contradict yourself a bit. You list all our 'good' players, which I agree with, but then say that apart from our 4 best players we are a similar level to Everton, West Ham, Newcastle etc. Get a grip mate, we may not have top quality throughout the side, but it's because we do have quality throughout the side that we consistently finish well above these sides in the league - even when we have a bad season in the league like last year.

I think it's also harsh to say Arsenal have more quality players than us. If you're saying Gerrard, Reina, Alonso and Carragher are our quality players then how many do Arsenal have? Henry, Fabregas, Toure and Gallas maybe? I don't think there's much between our squads to be honest.

Chelsea aren't too far ahead of us either and I would argue are close to being in decline considering Abramovich has tightened the purse strings. The players they've signed for next year I don't think will improve their first 11 when everyone's fit. Makelele's also on his way out who has been a big part of their recent success. United will struggle to get as many games out of Scholes and Giggs next year and I can't imagine Ronaldo having just as good a season as he has just had. Hargreaves is vastly, vastly overrated and I still think they will have a big weakness in central midfield next year. Attacking-wise they were so devastating last year that altering their line-up to include Nani and Anderson will only weaken them in the short-term until these players adapt to the premiership.

So it's not all doom and gloom as I see it. Our current squad won't finish ahead of United and Chelsea, but add 2 or 3 quality attacking players and we'll be able to challenge.

My increasing worry is Benitez. I just don't think we can actually win the league until he at least cuts down the squad rotation.

by **metalhead** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:58 pm

john craig wrote:Stu, I think you're having one of your 'glass is half empty' days to be honest mate.

I agree with a fair bit of what you say. Clearly we do lack enough real quality players, and I agree with your analysis that probably only Gerrard would walk into a league best 11. Beyond that as you say there's a case for Carra and Reina. Alonso I don't think would be anywhere near it.

But I think you contradict yourself a bit. You list all our 'good' players, which I agree with, but then say that apart from our 4 best players we are a similar level to Everton, West Ham, Newcastle etc. Get a grip mate, we may not have top quality throughout the side, but it's because we do have quality throughout the side that we consistently finish well above these sides in the league - even when we have a bad season in the league like last year.

I think it's also harsh to say Arsenal have more quality players than us. If you're saying Gerrard, Reina, Alonso and Carragher are our quality players then how many do Arsenal have? Henry, Fabregas, Toure and Gallas maybe? I don't think there's much between our squads to be honest.

Chelsea aren't too far ahead of us either and I would argue are close to being in decline considering Abramovich has tightened the purse strings. The players they've signed for next year I don't think will improve their first 11 when everyone's fit. Makelele's also on his way out who has been a big part of their recent success. United will struggle to get as many games out of Scholes and Giggs next year and I can't imagine Ronaldo having just as good a season as he has just had. Hargreaves is vastly, vastly overrated and I still think they will have a big weakness in central midfield next year. Attacking-wise they were so devastating last year that altering their line-up to include Nani and Anderson will only weaken them in the short-term until these players adapt to the premiership.

So it's not all doom and gloom as I see it. Our current squad won't finish ahead of United and Chelsea, but add 2 or 3 quality attacking players and we'll be able to challenge.

My increasing worry is Benitez. I just don't think we can actually win the league until he at least cuts down the squad rotation.

I disagree with you on the "we aren't far from chelsea either" part.

They have quality starting eleven, and very good squad players. We don't have a complete quality starting eleven, we have good players coupled with top class players.

If we can sign 3 or 4 top class players this summer, then we would match chelsea.

Other than that, i agree with you

by **bigmick** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:51 pm

I agree with bits of what everyone has said on this excellent thread, and disagree with the body of just about everyone.

Taking things which struck me in order of me reading them. Saying I have grave reservations about whether Palletta willever be able to make a step up to the first team is not sitting on the fence. It's a polite way of saying I don't think he's going to be good enough. I wouldn't 100% rule him out as he's very young for a centre-half and as of yet, I haven't seen a single thing from him which would justify signing him in the first place (and I'm assuming there was a reason we took him on) so you would assume that there is a footballer in there waiting to get out. Well you would hope so anyway but we probably won't ever see it in a Liverpool shirt is my call.

I'm firmly of the opinion that our first team is a match for Man Utd and Chelsea, and in this sense I very much disagree with Stu and to a lesser extent John. I'm not of the opinion that you go down the team sheet giving each player marks out of ten, total them up and then arrive at a score in order to work out who is the better team. The key word here is team, and without a rotated squad/formation/Gerrards position this season we would have gone very very close to winning the title, I'm absolutely convinced of it. Given that we largely conceded the chances of playing to anything like our potential due to selectoral silliness in the first ten games (and I know Rafa started panicking and picking a sensible line-up around game six but it then took us three or four games to find some rhythm) and we treated the last eight or nine games as Champions League warm-ups, we only really competed for around two thirds of the season. During that period, our record was pretty good I should have thought, allied to the fact that we managed to beat the reigning Spanish Champions and English Champions over two legs in the Cl says to me that our first choice eleven is a pretty good team should we choose to play it every now and then.

As for Ferdinand compared to Agger it's a very interesting comparison. Ferdinand is abviously the better player as of now and it's debateable whehter the Dane will ever reach his level, though my suspicion is he will. The reason why for me the comparison is very interesting is because the player that Agger reminds me very much of as a young player is Ferdinand when he first came on the scene as a polished yet brittle centre half who was vry prone to lapses in concentration. That would have been six or seven seasons ago, and in my view Aggers superior attitude allied to his huge natural talent means he will get to Ferdidnands level and perhaps surpass it.

One last point, even if Hyppia stays we still need a centre-half. Arbeloa would get spat out for erse paper if he had to play there as he's too pretty, Palletta's not good enough and you definately beed four centre-halves at the start of a season. Should have kept the young lad we sold to Crewe I would have thought.

by **aCe'** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:04 pm

john craig wrote:Stu, I think you're having one of your 'glass is half empty' days to be honest mate.

I agree with a fair bit of what you say. Clearly we do lack enough real quality players, and I agree with your analysis that probably only Gerrard would walk into a league best 11. Beyond that as you say there's a case for Carra and Reina. Alonso I don't think would be anywhere near it.

But I think you contradict yourself a bit. You list all our 'good' players, which I agree with, but then say that apart from our 4 best players we are a similar level to Everton, West Ham, Newcastle etc. Get a grip mate, we may not have top quality throughout the side, but it's because we do have quality throughout the side that we consistently finish well above these sides in the league - even when we have a bad season in the league like last year.

I think it's also harsh to say Arsenal have more quality players than us. If you're saying Gerrard, Reina, Alonso and Carragher are our quality players then how many do Arsenal have? Henry, Fabregas, Toure and Gallas maybe? I don't think there's much between our squads to be honest.

Chelsea aren't too far ahead of us either and I would argue are close to being in decline considering Abramovich has tightened the purse strings. The players they've signed for next year I don't think will improve their first 11 when everyone's fit. Makelele's also on his way out who has been a big part of their recent success. United will struggle to get as many games out of Scholes and Giggs next year and I can't imagine Ronaldo having just as good a season as he has just had. Hargreaves is vastly, vastly overrated and I still think they will have a big weakness in central midfield next year. Attacking-wise they were so devastating last year that altering their line-up to include Nani and Anderson will only weaken them in the short-term until these players adapt to the premiership.

So it's not all doom and gloom as I see it. Our current squad won't finish ahead of United and Chelsea, but add 2 or 3 quality attacking players and we'll be able to challenge.

My increasing worry is Benitez. I just don't think we can actually win the league until he at least cuts down the squad rotation.

well...from what stu said....the part i disagree with is that mascherano is just a 'decent' player... hes a great prospect and a brilliant player and if you ask me...would walk into most top clubs in europe not just england but thats a whole different discussion altogether !

as for the quality player we've got... id say Gerrard, Alonso, Reina and Carragher...thats 4...
manutd: Rio, Heinze, Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes, Rooney..thas 6
Chelsea: Cech, Terry, Cole, Essien, Makelele, Lampard, Robben, Shevchenko, Drogba thas 9 (not including Carvalho and J.Cole who to me are better than anything we got except for gerrard) !
ARSENAL: Toure, Gallas, Fabregas, rosicky, Van Persie, Henry thats 6 !

we need quality and if we can sign players like Mancini and Torres...we'll probably become a much better side next season ! to me, the likes of finnan and Pennant can do a job...just like Carrick looks a good player playing for ManUtd although i personally think hes an average player, Pennant who i believe to be a pretty good player can do a job for us !

all about who it is Rafa signs this summer... or who he doesnt for all that matters !

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:48 am

I'm firmly of the opinion that our first team is a match for Man Utd and Chelsea, and in this sense I very much disagree with Stu and to a lesser extent John. I'm not of the opinion that you go down the team sheet giving each player marks out of ten, total them up and then arrive at a score in order to work out who is the better team. The key word here is team, and without a rotated squad/formation/Gerrards position this season we would have gone very very close to winning the title, I'm absolutely convinced of it. Given that we largely conceded the chances of playing to anything like our potential due to selectoral silliness in the first ten games (and I know Rafa started panicking and picking a sensible line-up around game six but it then took us three or four games to find some rhythm) and we treated the last eight or nine games as Champions League warm-ups, we only really competed for around two thirds of the season. During that period, our record was pretty good I should have thought, allied to the fact that we managed to beat the reigning Spanish Champions and English Champions over two legs in the Cl says to me that our first choice eleven is a pretty good team should we choose to play it every now and then.

Yes Mick thats true indeed good point, the team still need to improve on personel in my honest opinion if we're to come closer to Manchester United and Chelsea. On our day we are capable of beating anybody, but unfortunately I think our records against ManU, Chelsea and even Arsenal need to improve in the Prem. Never mind the rest of the league yet, we havent even scored a single goal at the Bridge since Benitez took over, I dont think, so dont quote me on it we have beaten United at Old trafford under Benitez. We we're dire away to both Arsenal and United last year, yes the manger himself is the culprit IMO of these two games with his tesm selection. But when ever we pit our wits up against the othe rbig three we seem to come off worse more often than not. So points are lost there most seasons, then we have the other 16 teams and a good half of them are pretty good at stopping us play, we huff and puff to break certain teams down, we hardly ever floor them.

Rafa's set-up in style is more about not to get beat than it is to win. So it starts at the top with Rafa and his methods when saying if we're good enough to win titles etc. IMHO his thinking of the game hinders us at times in the league, and so on with the personel he brings in. Kuyt, Pennant, Mascha, Alonso, Gonzalez, Riise, Bellamy and even Crouch possibly are all excellent players in their own rights (apart from Gonzo). But look at that personel and it just shouts out hard work and ethic to me. There is no individuality, creativity, flair or goals in that look apart from Crouch who does get his fair share when played. This is an obvious reason IMO as to why we fall short of Man U and Chelsea, we are still a few quality players short especially n the final third to challenge them, someone suggested if we had exactly the same squad next season we'd improve on this season, probably by about nine points or so, but we still wouldnt be any nearer to the likes of Chelsea and ManU.

So all in all I think the team has to be improved or we'd be pulling our hair out in frustration at watching Liverpool again huff and puff to blow teams away.
As for the Agger thing, that is the least of our concerns, even if we played One holding mid in Alonso or Mashca as we did at times last season Agger and the defence are pretty much covered IMO, yes they may have more work on their hands if we went a bit more cavalier, but thats a risk we need to take, and a leaf out of Uniteds book.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:47 am

The thing about this flair issue is that I don't disagree we lack it somewhat, but I do take issue with how improtant it is. We wouldn't be the first team to win the league by being pretty boring and winning the majority of games 1-0, but as it stands at the moent we would be the first team in the history of english football to win the league by changing the team every week. If we play to our strengths (which is counter-attacking football if we're honest) we are a match for anyone. Unfortunately, as it seems to be our favoured method through giving players a rest in the first weeks of the season to give everyone else a start, we more often than not go to our rivals grounds already behind and needing to win. Ultimately, we don't set up like that so we are immediately out of our comfort zone.

We have nowhere near as much flair as Man Utd or Arsenal (though we aren't that far behind Chelsea who choose not to utilize their flair players and more often than not lump it to Drogba ) but that doesn't mean we can't win the league. Flair doesn't win you it alone. You need to be able to win when not playing well, to grind out a result when all seems lost, to hang on for a point occasionally when you are under the cosh. To do this you need teamwork, understanding and the belief that comes form going into the trenches with broadly the same blokes week after week. You don't engender that feeling if players don't know whether or where they will play from one week to the next.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:13 am

I think both your paragraphs sum it up really. In the first paragraph you quite rightly deemed us a " counter attacking side ". Firstly playing counter attacking football in Europe is okay, but playing it in your own back garden can undo us as a team. When Bolton, Villa, Man.C, Boro or anyone like that play us at home or away they set up to play us on the counter and sit deep. Most of the time, last season especially these fixtures involving us and those mentioned have been negative and null of ideas, cancelling eachother out. Instead of going out there to beat them we struggle to carve opportunities as we play a 'boring' game.

To bring the second paragraph into this, last season in other games that I watched we had the lions share of possesion and were the better side on the park. We didnt needto grind out a result we werent clinging on to a lead. We were holding onto a draw, because we didnt have the spark,flair, creativity and goals to win us the matches. I understand what you said, but we dont struggle to do the nitty gritty as IMO players like Kuyt, Crouch, Mascha, Alonso and Riise etc are all nitty grit players. We struggle to win games and lack what ever you want to call it .... flair, creativty etc etc to do this.

by **bigmick** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:15 am

But though we lack the flair of a Man Utd or an Arsenal, we have enough in our locker in my view to beat the lesser teams who set up to defend against us. It's not necessarily the personel, I think it's more the mentality. From central midfield for instance, Man Utd would have Scholes, who has been one of the best goal scoring midfielders in the history of the Premeirship bombing forward, and Carrick sitting. If you try and blanket them out though, Carrick will push on as well and put you under lots of pressure.

This notion of your hoding midfielder (or in our case sometimes two of them) breaking the shackles and getting forward against circumspect teams is a fairly modern developement, but a welcome one as teams have learnt to also compress with their attacking players and make themselves very difficult to break down. Gilberto Silva's scoring record this season was nothing short of amazing, and highlights how our own Alonso, Masherono, and Sissoko have much more to contribute. For me it's not necessarily about flair as in doing step overs, it's about being in and around the box and having players who are prepared to hit a space and score a goal. I'll grant anybody that if we play Crouch and Kuyt together we lack a bit of pace and they are a bit samey, but with the addition of a more mobile natural finisher we wouldn't be incapable of breaking almost any team down given the desire to do so. I've said it a couple of times that it is a real shame that Luis Garcia is not just a bit more physical and consistently better at protecting the ball. I really think that off the front man he would score an absolute heap of goals as he is as natural a mover in and around the box as we've had for many a year. Certainly only Fowler could have held a candle to him this season, and if we are finally to trade him for that elusive "spark" striker, I for one will be sad to see him go.

by **redtrader74** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:47 am

We could have played exactly the same way over the last two years, but had we a striker or two who puts away chances, and half chances we would certainly have contended for the league. For all the goals Crouch scored think back and remember all the easy chances he missed, all the sad headers put into the keepers arms, or 'headed' with his face. The chances that Kuyt has missed, because he was just a half second too slow. They are both good forwards who work hard, but need to be consigned to the squad, there is no way our club should rely on them to be our main goal threat.

That is the reason for our poor displays against the top four, none of our strikers have been good enough to beat the best defences and keepers in the league. Rafa is conservative in his approach and i can't see why he will change drastically, but there are always decent chances in the games, we have not been good enough to take them. Someone like horse face would have, imo, scored 7-10 more goals than Kuyt or Crouch in the league playing the same number of games.

I agree there is some lack of creativity in the final third, but even if we get that, without a top striker who will take the one/two chances they may get then we will experience the Andy cole syndrome with the strikers we do.

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