Liverpool FC Forum

by **Rush** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:56 pm

Ciggy wrote:
s@int wrote:Liverpool have played 7 games and got 10 points
Liverpool after 7 games last season had 10 points

Chelsea after 7 games have 16 points
Chelsea last season after 7 games had 21 points

So we are in fact 5 points nearer to Chelsea than we were last season at this time, and we are doing no worse points wise than we did last season.

That is not to say everything is great because it obviously isnt, but to perhaps suggest that things arnt quite as bad as yesterdays match made us feel.

Theres one big problem though Saint its the Mancs that are gaining the momentum not Chelsea, and whilst we compare our results to those of Chelsea's the mancs are running away from everyone.
As much as I dont like Fergie there is noway that team will feck it up he wont let them.

If United pick up a couple of injuries to key players, everything will look different. Their squad isn,t good enough to cope with such problems.

by **CousinIT** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:33 pm

I don't think anybody has mentioned this but our problem is not the rotation or the team we have played it is simply where we have played them. Rafa seems to have got us back to the 70s and 80s where no team could win at Anfield but the flip side to that is we can't win away from home. If a side has more fans than us in the ground we have lost so far this year. The charity shield may of been away from home but we had more fans and we won. Any other time we've been away from Anfield we have struggled.

by **hello_red** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:35 pm

Redman in wales wrote:
hello_red wrote:3-0 down at half time and we still go on to win the chanpions league! against the odds in the fa cup final... i feel that Rafas' rotation policy will benifit us in the long run.. have faith!

ah but you see they're both cup competitions, where consistancy doesn't play as bigger part than the league... what we're after is the premiership!

i know what your saying, but i honestly feel that his rotation policy although a bit suspect now will benefit us in the long run. i truly believe that aswell.

battle campaigns are won and lost by the personal, our general (rafa) is sound, its the troops that have to perform and we have the troops to do it!!!

metaphors... i love them!

by **CousinIT** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:39 pm

hello_red wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
hello_red wrote:3-0 down at half time and we still go on to win the chanpions league! against the odds in the fa cup final... i feel that Rafas' rotation policy will benifit us in the long run.. have faith!

ah but you see they're both cup competitions, where consistancy doesn't play as bigger part than the league... what we're after is the premiership!

i know what your saying, but i honestly feel that his rotation policy although a bit suspect now will benefit us in the long run. i truly believe that aswell.

battle campaigns are won and lost by the personal, our general (rafa) is sound, its the troops that have to perform and we have the troops to do it!!!

metaphors... i love them!

It's not the troops, it is Rafa himself. He doesn't know his best 11 and rotation doesn't suit anyone because you don't know if you're coming or going. He needs to pick his best 11 in their best positions and give them a run. If that doesn't work then start rotating but give your best 11 a go 1st.

by **Gbo** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:32 pm

Next two away games are Mancs and Arsenal so after those every other game should be winable as imo all the difficult away games are over, so no way is the title race finished for us.

by **hello_red** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:38 am

CousinIT i know hat your saying but they are professional footballers who have spent years training in academys, i think they should be able to cope with different players every so often. i know alot of football is alot about instinct but theres a limit...

and now we have international :censored:

to put up with, we talk about consistency and our best eleven then the break hits us. talk about unlucky ;(

by **Espionage** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:20 am

CousinIT wrote:I don't think anybody has mentioned this but our problem is not the rotation or the team we have played it is simply where we have played them. Rafa seems to have got us back to the 70s and 80s where no team could win at Anfield but the flip side to that is we can't win away from home. If a side has more fans than us in the ground we have lost so far this year. The charity shield may of been away from home but we had more fans and we won. Any other time we've been away from Anfield we have struggled.

I think that this is total :censored:

!

Teams at home will always play slightly better, FACT.

If you go on a losing streak in heads and tales then you dont blame it on tactics. I am not saying that Football is all luck but at the moment we are playing well and in truth have been unlucky not to pick up a few more points. Not only that, it is unfair to compare us to Man U and Chelsea because we have not played the same teams. The only away game of any great difficulty to the other big three has been Arsenal away to Man U.
We have a hard opening set of games which means that we have a easier road ahead of us.

Sure we dont look very good at the moment, but that is why you are not sopossed to look at the table until the anomalies have been ironed out and some order is restored. This is the nature of probability.

If you asked me what our most difficult games of the season would be, i would say that in all 38 games Chelsea and Bolton away are undoubtably 2 of the top 5 hardest games for us.
Loss to Everton = a bit unfortunate
Chelsea = we were robbed of a point (at least)
Bolton = Bad decision with the first goal

If the way we were playing was different depending on where we played them then I would be worrying. But at the moment we lost some games that we dominated. This leads me to say that we dont need to change the tactics or the player, but we just need a bit more effort from the players and wait for the law of probability to give us a boost.

by **The_Rock** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:31 am

Sabre wrote:But let's be a little bit more patient when it comes to say a policy is wrong, we're just in october, and for what is worth, we did have the same discussions last year at this point.

That's the point....why are we repeating the same mistakes we made last season. I mean last season cisse was probabily on the form of his life for us (ie...scoring in the super cup). But rafa immediately drops his for Morientes in the next few games.

Its no secret that once rafa played a somewhat settled squad (ie...in rafa's terms...when he made minimal changes to the team), we went on the long unbeaten run in december and then in the last few months of the season. But by that time, it was already too late for the title.

And now, we are making the same mistakes of not playing the form players (ie..crouch) and making too many rotations. Just put yourself in the players shoes..how do u think they will perform (cough....zenden..... cough), when they know they will be dropped the next game no matter how well they play the current one.... And then get back into the team 3 or 4 games later

?? They will simply lose their passion. There is no motivation for them to play well because they know they won't be playing the next game.

Unless we are happy to finish 3rd or 4th, this is simply unacceptable.

I like rafa and think he is the best manager we can have...but sometimes, i think rafa thinks too far ahead. Whats the point in having players fresh in the 2nd half of the season when we are out of runnning for the league...... Unless we are in the running for the champions league.

But seriously, if we had picked our strongest team we would have deffo beaten sheffield united and everton. Then things wouldn't have look this bad.

by **Espionage** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:19 am

The_Rock wrote:
Sabre wrote:But let's be a little bit more patient when it comes to say a policy is wrong, we're just in october, and for what is worth, we did have the same discussions last year at this point.

That's the point....why are we repeating the same mistakes we made last season. I mean last season cisse was probabily on the form of his life for us (ie...scoring in the super cup). But rafa immediately drops his for Morientes in the next few games.

Its no secret that once rafa played a somewhat settled squad (ie...in rafa's terms...when he made minimal changes to the team), we went on the long unbeaten run in december and then in the last few months of the season. But by that time, it was already too late for the title.

And now, we are making the same mistakes of not playing the form players (ie..crouch) and making too many rotations. Just put yourself in the players shoes..how do u think they will perform (cough....zenden..... cough), when they know they will be dropped the next game no matter how well they play the current one.... And then get back into the team 3 or 4 games later ?? They will simply lose their passion. There is no motivation for them to play well because they know they won't be playing the next game.

Unless we are happy to finish 3rd or 4th, this is simply unacceptable.

I like rafa and think he is the best manager we can have...but sometimes, i think rafa thinks too far ahead. Whats the point in having players fresh in the 2nd half of the season when we are out of runnning for the league...... Unless we are in the running for the champions league.

But seriously, if we had picked our strongest team we would have deffo beaten sheffield united and everton. Then things wouldn't have look this bad.

Rafa is not changing the line up very much atm. People say that he should stick with the same line-up and then he doesnt play Crouch and gets slated. "Stop changing everything Rafa! Just make the changes that I want to see!" You say that Rafa should changed to playing Cisse, but what if that didnt work? Then of course it would be Rafa's fault for rotating too much. These arguements are just pathetic.......

You mention our winning streak last season, do you think that if we went on a winning streak now, Rafa would still make the same amount of changes? Of course not! At the moment there is no obvious choice for some positions and I dont buy the bullsh!t that Gerrard cant play on the left, so that shouldnt even count as a change.

Why is it that its Rafa's fault that we lost to Everton and Sheffield, wasnt it the players that lost the game? Our players have been lacking in elementary finishing and have made a few too many uncharacteristic errors. So it makes no sense to have a go at Rafa.

by **Redman in wales** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:09 am

hello_red wrote:CousinIT i know hat your saying but they are professional footballers who have spent years training in academys, i think they should be able to cope with different players every so often. i know alot of football is alot about instinct but theres a limit...

the keyword there is should. they should be able to, but the fact is they can't. 10points from 7 games says that they can't.

by **NiftyNeil** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:29 am

I agree with most people, the rotation has to stop. Rafa seems obsessed with it at the moment and seems to do it for the sake of it.
Another problem is Rafas treatment of Stevie. He's playing him here there and everywhere at the moment, and this is obviously affecting his game. He has played on the left, on the right, central midfield, and as a second striker. Last season was probably Stevies best season - he played like a man possessed. I put this down to the weight (Chelsea transfer saga) being lifted off his shoulders and him being happier. But now he seems troubled again, and this is affecting him, and ultimately the team.
The team I'd stick with is

Reina
Finnan Cara Agger Riise
Gerrard Momo Alonso **
Kuyt **

** = various players until someone makes it their own.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:37 am

Espionage wrote:
These arguements are just pathetic.......

You mention our winning streak last season, do you think that if we went on a winning streak now, Rafa would still make the same amount of changes? Of course not! At the moment there is no obvious choice for some positions and I dont buy the bullsh!t that Gerrard cant play on the left, so that shouldnt even count as a change.

Why is it that its Rafa's fault that we lost to Everton and Sheffield, wasnt it the players that lost the game? Our players have been lacking in elementary finishing and have made a few too many uncharacteristic errors. So it makes no sense to have a go at Rafa.

Hmmm I don't know about pathetic. You may disagree with the arguments but they sre not "pathetic" surely?

In terms of the winning streak last season the point surely is which came first, the unchanged team or the winning run? It's rather like a chicken and egg I guess.

"Would rafa still make the changes if we went on a run? of course not". Well I suppose one could argue that as we had just beaten Spurs, Newcastle and Galatasaray that we were on something of a run before Saurday already and the changes still came so I think we can put that one to bed once and for all.

"No obvious choice for some positions". Again it's a matter of opinion but I take your point. "I don't buy this bullsh!t that Gerrard can't play on the left" is another opinion, but I think most of us who have said we wouldn't play him there are not saying that he can't play there (he could probably play centre-half if you asked him to), we are merely saying he is less effective there than in his favoured position. Maybe you could comment on whether or not you agree with that.

Of course it's not the managers fault as such when we lose, as it's the players who are actually out on the pitch. In some games it's nobody's fault as bad luck or bad decisions can rob you of a result as we've had a couple of times this season. The rotation debate is not pathetic though, tedious maybe but not pathetic.

Change a team and it has an effect upon it, that much is fact. Some would say that the effect is minimal, some would say it is major. Some would say the effect is long-term positive, some would take the opposite view. All opinions on this cannot be "pathetic". If you are getting bored with the whole question (as I certainly am) then don't get involved in the discussion.

by **mattylfc** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:55 am

I completely agree that we should keep the majority of the team the same on a regular basis and rotate just a couple of players to suit the opposition.

There are a few changes that you just cant get away from and will rotate on a regular basis. Hyppia and Agger for example, will naturally rotate for now as they have different qualities and will be used accordingly as Agger continues with the bedding in process.

Personally i would play JAR left midfield consistently, i really like him there and i think he gives the team the balance we require. You can then rotate between Warnock and Aurelio (perhaps warnock more away from home and aurelio at home) at left back. Alonso and Sissoko would play CM and Gerrard on the right.

The main headache for me though is the forward line. Kuyt for me is the main man and would start the majority of games as he is at present. As much as i think Kuyt and Bellamy have a combination of traits that could make a winning partnership, at present it hasnt really kicked off for Bellamy. I think it will happen for him eventually but for now i would like to see Crouch given a run of games as he has done more than enough to warrant a place in the side. Also, as good as i think Bellamy is, i dont think that our style of play particularly plays to his strengths anyway. We dont really utilise his pace and at present he doesnt look entirely confident. I would give him a rest and see how Crouch and Kuyt look together, possibly even fowler.

This is how i would generally line up:

Reina

finnan JC Hyppia/Agger Warnock/Aurelio

Gerrard Alonso Sissoko Risse

Kuyt Crouch/Bellamy/Fowler

I have been really impressed with Garcia lately and i think he will get his opportunity even if it means coming off the bench to impact the game, his attitude has been spot-on.

I would continue to ease Gonzalez and pennant into it by introducing them as subs, they havnt offered enough yet but it will take a bit of time im sure for them to really inluence the side. Theres also Robbie of course, who seems forgotten at present. Hopefully he will get his chance at some point and prove he still has what it takes at this level.

by **masterp** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:25 am

two reasons

1. too many new players who aren't being given the games (consecutive games) to settle in and adapt to a new style of play and in some cases a new league... Gonzalez, Pennant, Kuyt, Bellamy, Aurelio, Agger

2. with Hypia and Carrager at the back there is simply no pace (although to be fair to Rafa that's why he brought in Agger)

by **stmichael** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:50 pm

For years we were saying that we didn't have a strong enough squad and we were expecting too much from our key players ( Stevie G's legs in the F.a Cup Final?) Now he has increased the squad and is trying the rotation to see if he can save legs and take us to the next level. F#ck me, we have used every other excuse for not winning the league lets give it a go and see whether it kicks in. ITS ONLY OCTOBER and we have had the most difficult start out of all the teams by a country mile and we are ONLY SIX POINTS BEHIND.

The main problem so far has been that away from home, our finishing has been nothing short of shocking. Rotation is not at fault for established internationals missing chance after chance.

Liverpool FC Forum

Early season problems - - a short in-depth view -

Who is online