Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:38 pm

bigmick wrote:It is my hunch that Finnan is a good solid player who has been probably made to look better than he is by the presence of Gerrard at right-mid. Anybody who he comes up against Finnan spends more time going backwards than forwards when faced with Gerrard, and such is the concern teams show about our captain he is generally afforded plenty of time and space to cross.

I really like Finnan but I really sometimes do wonder if he's in somewhat of a 'comfort zone' at times. He is very solid in all areas but generally is very cautious in his outlook and play. It also doesn't help that he has no real competition for his place.

by **taff** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:09 pm

Heres a view to inspire some debate then

Gerrard as right back

Im not really serious but thinking about it, would provide great support to Pennant, Sissoko and Alonso look good together, let Garcia have the hole or two strikers

by **JC_81** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:10 pm

Good thread.

First of all I think Pennant was man of the match against Haifa. Yes there were times when he and Finnan lacked understanding, but this can be put down to the fact that they've barely even played together in pre-season and that Finnan's sheer reluctance to overlap at times makes him a difficult full back for a right midfielder to play with in an attacking sense.

Secondly I'm in agreement with bigmick over Gerrard. His best position is right mid, last season should be evidence enough of that. However, he can also be a fantastic driving force from central midfield as we've seen in the past. But as for playing him as a withdrawn forward/attacking central midfielder or whatever else you want to call his position versus Haifa, I don't think he's ever going to be as effective there. He can't influence games enough and certainly not when we play without a target man to hold the ball up as we did on wednesday.

In my opinion, 4-5-1 does not suit us, we have no striker who has got the goal threat, mobility and physique to lead the line on their own. Because of that I think we have to go 4-4-2 the majority of the time, and because Alonso and Gerrard are seemingly undroppable, it will come down to whether we play Gerrard/Alonso centrally with Pennant on the right, or Sissoko/Alonso centrally with Gerrard on the right. I think Sissoko is almost, if not already undroppable and therefore I would prefer to see Pennant start most games on the bench. But the thing is he would then be first choice back up to Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard, therefore would still get plenty of games over a season. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

by **stmichael** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:37 pm

On Gerrard's best position, he's been able to produce performances like the Cup Final and the second half in Istanbul, because he's been freed by the presence of both a defensive midfielder (Hamann/Momo) and also the ability of Alonso to offer a screen in front of the back four and the ability to link play, control the tempo and generally make us play like a team.

I think Stevie loses part of his game when he's playing in a 'two' in midfield because then he has to be more controlled and disciplined as there is more defensive work to do. Not that I'm saying he can't do it, but he's better and we're better when he has license to roam - which he did last season from that right-hand side.

by **stmichael** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:21 pm

john craig wrote:In my opinion, 4-5-1 does not suit us, we have no striker who has got the goal threat, mobility and physique to lead the line on their own. Because of that I think we have to go 4-4-2 the majority of the time, and because Alonso and Gerrard are seemingly undroppable, it will come down to whether we play Gerrard/Alonso centrally with Pennant on the right, or Sissoko/Alonso centrally with Gerrard on the right. I think Sissoko is almost, if not already undroppable and therefore I would prefer to see Pennant start most games on the bench. But the thing is he would then be first choice back up to Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard, therefore would still get plenty of games over a season. It'll be interesting to see how it pans out.

Realistically I expect Gerrard to start the majority of games this season, with one of Xabi, Momo or Pennant rotated out to accommodate him if we play 4-4-2. This means the other 3 will have to cope with reduced game time.

Like many have said before this is a good problem to have and shows the we have quality in depth in pretty much every area of the team.

by **Scottbot** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:45 am

stmichael wrote:I think Stevie loses part of his game when he's playing in a 'two' in midfield because then he has to be more controlled and disciplined as there is more defensive work to do. Not that I'm saying he can't do it, but he's better and we're better when he has license to roam - which he did last season from that right-hand side.

And that's the key for me. Gerrard does his best work when he's given license to roam but the only way to accomodate him in this role effectively without (sacrificing a forward) is to play him on the right or switch to a 3-5-2 (which won't happen).

It surprises me that so few of us on the board believe Gerrard's best position is on the right baring in mind he's just had the season of his life playing predominantly in that position. Like John i would like to see Pennant used as first reserve for the rest of the midfield.

by **Scottbot** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:49 am

taff wrote:Heres a view to inspire some debate then

Gerrard as right back

Im not really serious but thinking about it, would provide great support to Pennant, Sissoko and Alonso look good together, let Garcia have the hole or two strikers

I know you're joking Taff but i could see Stevie playing right-back for the club (and the country) in his mid-thirties.

by **bigmick** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:07 pm

Gerrard would be one of the best right backs in the World if he played there, of that I have no doubt. My suspicion though is that right-midfield is his slot and he will be asked to play there on a permanent basis for England asell.

by **stmichael** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:54 pm

Scottbot wrote:It surprises me that so few of us on the board believe Gerrard's best position is on the right baring in mind he's just had the season of his life playing predominantly in that position.

Me too. It wouldn't surprise me to see him playing there for England in the upcoming qualifiers too.

If we're to play 4-4-2, a centre pairing of Sissoko and Alonso offers balance. A lot here complain that Xabi doesn't go forward often enough and when playing together in a 4-4-2 I believe Gerrard's game stifles Xabi to an extent. I remember watching Xabi Alonso in full flow during Sociedad's surprise title-charge a few years ago and Xabi Alonso can be a quite magnificent offensive midfielder given the opportunity (I'm sure Sabre will back this up). He's had to adapt his game significantly due to the presence of Gerrard.

Gerrard is, as I have stated before, probably the most complete footballer I've had the chance to witness play. In theory, 4-3-2-1 would fit in all 3 players, but then what of Bellamy as Crouch is better suited to playing the lone striker's role?

So many questions.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:13 pm

First of all, if Crouch were fit enough to start he would have and we would have gone for a 4-4-2 probably. So the team selection was down to necessity more than anything else.

I must confess that out of necessity I could only watch the first half against Hafia, from what I saw Pennant didn’t do anything to deserve this high praise, maybe his second half showing was much better. Nothing I have seen so far has changed my mind that Pennant is nothing but a compromise and a player that will provide us with options more than anything else. People continue to talk about how he hugs the touchline and how great this is, for me this shows how one dimensional he is, against poorer side with less capable defenders he will have an impact, he relies on being better than the individual left back he is playing against, a bit like Cisse, if he wins his one on one battle then he contributes, if he doesn’t he is a waste, if he comes up against intelligent defenders who will be able to read him and position themselves well he will have very little impact. Against Hafia their left side was non existent, I didn’t even notice they had a left midfielder on the pitch, there was loads of space to exploit but Pennant kept trying to go on the outside of the full back, which meant he was only drawing in one player. If he is going to make a serious impact at Liverpool he will have to make a massive improvement, most notably as I have argued before his ability to go inside and threaten more than one player, he needs to threaten with his left foot and catch the attention of centre backs and centre mids, a player that needs much improvement in my opinion, not just as part of the team as come have mentioned but also as an individual. Also, people talk about how he put in more crosses than any other player last season, but the quality of his crosses isn’t great, he is inconsistent with this, and when teams are defending deep against us he will not get so many chance to get space further up the pitch behind the full back and get it right.

Bellamy did O.K, I was surprised at how much he was getting caught offside, I thought he was good at playing along the line, maybe he was just anxious on his debut. His finish was cool and commanding, but he struggled up front alone as most do.

I agree there is a bit of a conundrum with Gerrard’s position, as a central midfield player he doesn’t really suit Rafa’s style of play, but in his heart he wants to play in the centre, but we already have a formidable partnership in the centre with Alonso and Sissoko, and were more suited to playing a 4-4-2 rather than one up top so playing all three in the centre is not desirable. I think Rafa would be over the moon if Gerrard came out tomorrow and said that he wants to be a right winger and feels it is his best position, it would solve a lot of problems, but I cant see it happening, so I can see our system changing often and Gerrard sometime playing in the centre, sometimes on the right and sometimes in a more advanced position closer to the striker. Gerard is best running from deep and being giving the freedom to stretch across the width of the pitch, he gets this freedom on the right so I don’t see why he shouldn’t be happy their.

I think most people agree with Riise being the weakest link in the defence, but he is not an awful player, but it is area than can be improved on.

I think in conclusion we should stick a 4-4-2 and use as much as the players from last year as possible and then integrate the new players in, we cant afford to stutter while we integrate new players, lets get some results and form under our belts and then start giving more responsibility to the new players.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:34 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:First of all, if Crouch were fit enough to start he would have and we would have gone for a 4-4-2 probably. So the team selection was down to necessity more than anything else.

I must confess that out of necessity I could only watch the first half against Hafia, from what I saw Pennant didn’t do anything to deserve this high praise, maybe his second half showing was much better. Nothing I have seen so far has changed my mind that Pennant is nothing but a compromise and a player that will provide us with options more than anything else. People continue to talk about how he hugs the touchline and how great this is, for me this shows how one dimensional he is, against poorer side with less capable defenders he will have an impact, he relies on being better than the individual left back he is playing against, a bit like Cisse, if he wins his one on one battle then he contributes, if he doesn’t he is a waste, if he comes up against intelligent defenders who will be able to read him and position themselves well he will have very little impact. Against Hafia their left side was non existent, I didn’t even notice they had a left midfielder on the pitch, there was loads of space to exploit but Pennant kept trying to go on the outside of the full back, which meant he was only drawing in one player. If he is going to make a serious impact at Liverpool he will have to make a massive improvement, most notably as I have argued before his ability to go inside and threaten more than one player, he needs to threaten with his left foot and catch the attention of centre backs and centre mids, a player that needs much improvement in my opinion, not just as part of the team as come have mentioned but also as an individual. Also, people talk about how he put in more crosses than any other player last season, but the quality of his crosses isn’t great, he is inconsistent with this, and when teams are defending deep against us he will not get so many chance to get space further up the pitch behind the full back and get it right.

Bellamy did O.K, I was surprised at how much he was getting caught offside, I thought he was good at playing along the line, maybe he was just anxious on his debut. His finish was cool and commanding, but he struggled up front alone as most do.

I agree there is a bit of a conundrum with Gerrard’s position, as a central midfield player he doesn’t really suit Rafa’s style of play, but in his heart he wants to play in the centre, but we already have a formidable partnership in the centre with Alonso and Sissoko, and were more suited to playing a 4-4-2 rather than one up top so playing all three in the centre is not desirable. I think Rafa would be over the moon if Gerrard came out tomorrow and said that he wants to be a right winger and feels it is his best position, it would solve a lot of problems, but I cant see it happening, so I can see our system changing often and Gerrard sometime playing in the centre, sometimes on the right and sometimes in a more advanced position closer to the striker. Gerard is best running from deep and being giving the freedom to stretch across the width of the pitch, he gets this freedom on the right so I don’t see why he shouldn’t be happy their.

I think most people agree with Riise being the weakest link in the defence, but he is not an awful player, but it is area than can be improved on.

I think in conclusion we should stick a 4-4-2 and use as much as the players from last year as possible and then integrate the new players in, we cant afford to stutter while we integrate new players, lets get some results and form under our belts and then start giving more responsibility to the new players.

A very good post Cool Hand and considering you touched on so many points I agree with most of what you say. Pennant did improve in the second half against Haifa ,but I still feel Gerrard will occupy that role when we have a fully fit squad.

by **ConnO'var** » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:38 pm

Scottbot wrote:
stmichael wrote:I think Stevie loses part of his game when he's playing in a 'two' in midfield because then he has to be more controlled and disciplined as there is more defensive work to do. Not that I'm saying he can't do it, but he's better and we're better when he has license to roam - which he did last season from that right-hand side.

And that's the key for me. Gerrard does his best work when he's given license to roam but the only way to accomodate him in this role effectively without (sacrificing a forward) is to play him on the right or switch to a 3-5-2 (which won't happen).

It surprises me that so few of us on the board believe Gerrard's best position is on the right baring in mind he's just had the season of his life playing predominantly in that position. Like John i would like to see Pennant used as first reserve for the rest of the midfield.

True I suppose... he HAS had his best season playing out wide... But I believe this is because the team around him has progressively gotten better which leaves him room and time to express himself a little better as he's less burdened with defensive duties.. and there's a lesser tendency to only depend on him...
(err.... you guys get what i mean? ...may not have been too well explained... sorry)

I've noticed in games when he's out on the right, he gets a tendency to drift in and out of games just a little. Being the outstanding player that he is, he'll be exceptional wherever Rafa decides including right back...
In fact, in his later years, he'll probably make a fantastic sweeper.

But right now, he's an out-n-out, box-to-box central midfielder the likes of which I've not seen in ages. And the best midfielder in the world is "wasted" on the right. He should be dictating the pace and rhythm of our play and play where he's most comfortable... in the heart of our midfield..

Honestly, I believe that if Rafa had gotten hold of Alves, we'd be playing a 3 men central midfield with a short passing game and 2 attackers.

As it is, Stevie'll be out on the right, as inspite of Pennant's presence, he's the best RM we have.....

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