Just about the balance in midfield

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Cool Hand Luke » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:55 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
stmichael wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:For me Xabi is a holding midfielder. His alround game is oustanding.

Stu, Alonso can definitely function as the holding midfielder.  Gerrard can then be free to maraud more than he does currently.  Infact this option could work because it would probably result in some swashbuckling performances and see us really leather some of the lesser teams. However I still think that Xabi's ability to dictate the game is restricted somewhat by being asked to perform the holding role.

Alonso dictates the game from a deep position. In the same way Vieira does, Xavi does and Josep Guardiola did. Thats his best position, sitting infront of the defence, anchoring the midfield, holding his position, however you want to put it. His defensive ability in my opinion isn't far off what Hamann's was at all. He's a better alround player now than Hamann ever was.

However the reason i think it won't work is because of what you've said. Gerrard will do the attacking and Xabi will do the defending. Thats too one-demensional. Both need to do both. Gerrard is probably the best tackler at the club. He has the ability to go from box to box winning tackles and driving the team on. People talk about his creative quaities, for me, they're good but not what i'd describe as class. His ability to spot a clever pass isn't what Danny Murphy's was or Xabi's is, the execution of his passes isn't as good, however he has the drive, pace and power to force things upon opponents. He should use that power to basically do what Carragher does around Sami, sweep up and get involved everywhere else.

He is a box to box midfielder, he's not an attacking midfielder as some people like to claim. If you take away Gerrard's tackling, aggression and determination you lose half of the player just as you do if you fix him to a holding position. He doesn't have the intelligence to hold and dictate, nor does he have the the skill and technical ability to be the main creative player.

He does have the ability to force a game though through sheer persistance, drive and heart. Gerrard is VERY good at most things, the only attributes i'd say he's class at are shooting, tackling, aggression, determination, leadership, stamina and alround power and pace.

At the minute though, when he's out wide, we have balance, when he's not, we don't.

I agree with most of what you said there Stu, but it does raise the question of whether Gerrard has a long term future in the central midfield? High tempo box to box central midfielders playing in a 4-4-2 or as part of a central midfield PARING seem to be going out of fashion at the top level.

Would it be wise for Gerrard to become a permanent right sided midfield player? It seems that maybe this position would get the best out of Gerrard undoubted abilities.

I’m not totally sure how the next few years will pan out for Gerrard, I have no doubt that he is a quality player, and will continue to be successful for us, but I’m not sure in which role this will be.
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:59 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:
stmichael wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:For me Xabi is a holding midfielder. His alround game is oustanding.

Stu, Alonso can definitely function as the holding midfielder.  Gerrard can then be free to maraud more than he does currently.  Infact this option could work because it would probably result in some swashbuckling performances and see us really leather some of the lesser teams. However I still think that Xabi's ability to dictate the game is restricted somewhat by being asked to perform the holding role.

Alonso dictates the game from a deep position. In the same way Vieira does, Xavi does and Josep Guardiola did. Thats his best position, sitting infront of the defence, anchoring the midfield, holding his position, however you want to put it. His defensive ability in my opinion isn't far off what Hamann's was at all. He's a better alround player now than Hamann ever was.

However the reason i think it won't work is because of what you've said. Gerrard will do the attacking and Xabi will do the defending. Thats too one-demensional. Both need to do both. Gerrard is probably the best tackler at the club. He has the ability to go from box to box winning tackles and driving the team on. People talk about his creative quaities, for me, they're good but not what i'd describe as class. His ability to spot a clever pass isn't what Danny Murphy's was or Xabi's is, the execution of his passes isn't as good, however he has the drive, pace and power to force things upon opponents. He should use that power to basically do what Carragher does around Sami, sweep up and get involved everywhere else.

He is a box to box midfielder, he's not an attacking midfielder as some people like to claim. If you take away Gerrard's tackling, aggression and determination you lose half of the player just as you do if you fix him to a holding position. He doesn't have the intelligence to hold and dictate, nor does he have the the skill and technical ability to be the main creative player.

He does have the ability to force a game though through sheer persistance, drive and heart. Gerrard is VERY good at most things, the only attributes i'd say he's class at are shooting, tackling, aggression, determination, leadership, stamina and alround power and pace.

At the minute though, when he's out wide, we have balance, when he's not, we don't.

I agree with most of what you said there Stu, but it does raise the question of whether Gerrard has a long term future in the central midfield? High tempo box to box central midfielders playing in a 4-4-2 or as part of a central midfield PARING seem to be going out of fashion at the top level.

Would it be wise for Gerrard to become a permanent right sided midfield player? It seems that maybe this position would get the best out of Gerrard undoubted abilities.

I’m not totally sure how the next few years will pan out for Gerrard, I have no doubt that he is a quality player, and will continue to be successful for us, but I’m not sure in which role this will be.

Same here.

I can see him staying out wide.

I can't put my finger on it really or weather i'm making it up but this season has made me think Gerrard's never been 100% consistent in the centre and never reached his potential there. He is however doing it now for us on the right...

Wierd situation... ???
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Postby Cool Hand Luke » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:05 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
Cool Hand Luke wrote:I agree that Rafa doesn’t really trust Gerrard fully to play in the centre as part of a 2, his positioning is sometimes questionable and he chases out more than he should. I’m not sure if Alonso and Gerrard is a central paring that Rafa is fully relying on for the future, as strange as that sounds.

My suspicious is that Rafa long term plan is something like this:


          xxx

xxx Gerrard xxx

Sissoko  Alonso

At this moment we don’t have the left or right wingers, or the striker to play like this. If you don’t have the right type and quality of player you will basically turn that formation into an Everton style “block em out” system. Even Chelsea at times have looked impotent attacking wise because they don’t have the top notch centre forward and right winger that the system needs. With a 4-4-2 you can cover up a lot of deficiencies in your players.

I see 3-5-2 as an option that can be used to change a game that isn’t going our way, rather than a permanent answer. At the moment I think a 4-4-2 is the best way to go, and Alonso and Gerrard are fine as the pairing. But in the long term I can see Rafa going to the 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard playing off the striker. At home I can see Rafa bringing in Gacria to play off the striker and Gerrard coming in along side Alonso with Sissoko dropping to the bench.

A big thing is that Rafa, whether it be in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2, likes his 2 central midfield players to sit and control the play without having to burst forward all the time. This isn’t really getting the bet out of Gerrard’s exceptional ability to take on defences, that is why I can see him having a slightly more advanced role in the team.

At the moment Alonso and Hamann are probably our most effective central midfield partnership, especially in Europe. But in the league Sissokos stamina, aggression and pace are more useful alongside Alonso rather than Hamanns cool head and ability to the simple things supremely well.

Overall central midfield is a very strong area for use, were we have some excellent variety, combinations and individual ability.

Firstly i don't personally think that is Gerrard's best position at all. I'd rather see him as a full back than played there.

Also I disagree when you say we don't have the wingers to play like that either. Kewell is more than good enough and is proving it. He's been excellent this season and the improvement is continuing.

We need a quality winger. Pennant, Joaquin... beyond that i'm struggling to think of any.

- Gerrards long term position/role in something that I’m not totally sure about myself, no doubt he can fulfil most positions at a high level, but were can he fit in the team where we will get the best out of him and at the same time the rest of team will not be detrimentally affected?

- As much as Kewell has improved, I don’t think he will once again reach a level were he is good enough to be a first team player in a title winning side. For me he simply doesn’t have the same pace and mobility that made him so dangerous while dribbling with the ball, physically he isn’t the same player and is unlikely to reach a good enough level. But that’s not to say he shouldn’t be in the team and isn’t good enough to fit in that system, but don’t be surprised if in 12/18 month someone else is the first choice left sided midfielder.

- Though Kewell is currently good enough to play that system, we still miss 2 vital components, a top quality centre forward who is capable of leading the line and achieving at least close to 20 league goals a season. And a quality right sided midfield player. If we don’t have all 3 components then playing that system is not an option in my opinion. So currently we don’t have the players to play that system.
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:48 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:- Gerrards long term position/role in something that I’m not totally sure about myself, no doubt he can fulfil most positions at a high level, but were can he fit in the team where we will get the best out of him and at the same time the rest of team will not be detrimentally affected?

- As much as Kewell has improved, I don’t think he will once again reach a level were he is good enough to be a first team player in a title winning side. For me he simply doesn’t have the same pace and mobility that made him so dangerous while dribbling with the ball, physically he isn’t the same player and is unlikely to reach a good enough level. But that’s not to say he shouldn’t be in the team and isn’t good enough to fit in that system, but don’t be surprised if in 12/18 month someone else is the first choice left sided midfielder.

- Though Kewell is currently good enough to play that system, we still miss 2 vital components, a top quality centre forward who is capable of leading the line and achieving at least close to 20 league goals a season. And a quality right sided midfield player. If we don’t have all 3 components then playing that system is not an option in my opinion. So currently we don’t have the players to play that system.

Kewell doesn't have the same pace and mobility. However he's still quick and still very mobile. He's improved his use of the ball and ability to swing in crosses from deeper positions aswell, he's adapted his game to his slight lack of pace and mobility. He picks good passes and has a good brain for the game, something you can't develop.

A good player with pace will know when to use his pace to good effect. A good player without pace learns that there are other ways and means, Kewell has realised he hasn't got the same level of pace and adapted his game accordingly.

He provides good width and balance and good creativety down the left hand side. All we need now is Pennant or Joaquin on the right... :D

I agree with the last part of the post.
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Postby Hotrod » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:39 pm

You guys are making a good point that Alonso and Gerrard find it difficult to play together, it is similar to the problem that England face with Gerrard and Lampard.

However I personally think it can work givin the time and training. One formation I thinked looked amazing for us was when we played arsenal and beat the 2-1 Stevie and Xabi were amazing, beacuse they had Hamman(I think) sitting in front of the back four just tidying things up and being very efficent as he does i think a some people had said we may revert to a 3 in midfield


     Gerrard/Zenden


Alonso  Hamman/Sissoko

Getting the weidth from wingbacks or even stick one up front with Gerrard given a free role and he will get back and defend all three will be able to inflence the game more in this system
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Postby Rastalovich » Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:12 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:I dont think Rafa has one particular formation in mind. We have already seen how Rafa's tactical awareness means he plans for each game, changing personall and formation to overcome the weakness' and stranghts of the opposition.

The signing of agger, and rafa's insistence on his and Carra/Sami's ability to play in a back three, Sami in the moddle, Agger on the left and Carra on the right shows that Rafa wants to get people in who will allow him as many options as is possible.

I dont hink he has a set formation in mind, I think he wants the personall to play any !!

Understand where you're coming from but if you ask him his strongest team its not going to be a 3-5-2. I think he's looking at a 4-4-2 or a "4-2-3-1" as the long term plan "A" and looking for the right players to make it work aswell as looking for players who are adaptable to other systems.

I'm not sure what he wants to do with the midfield. I don't believe he trusts Steven Gerrard tactically in that position (central midfield) as we've seen him and Xabi Alonso partnered there probably less than 10 times in the time Rafa's been here and he's often played outwide and "infront" of the midfield.

Against Birmingham when he played there the other night again he didn't really impress.

Talking about formations, I have this nasty feeling that Rafa`s looking at a 5 at the back, or similar.

U just have to look at the present squad, latest players to come in and it does look like it (barring some kind of offloading in the summer, or he feels 33/34 is too old or something lol [sorry sami :P ]).

Now if the 3 of the 5 stayed with the 2 wides giving liscense to go forward, that`d be nice.

Who can tell what Rafa`s plans exactly are, just a thought I got looking at the quad and the newer-comers.
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Postby stmichael » Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:02 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
stmichael wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:For me Xabi is a holding midfielder. His alround game is oustanding.

Stu, Alonso can definitely function as the holding midfielder.  Gerrard can then be free to maraud more than he does currently.  Infact this option could work because it would probably result in some swashbuckling performances and see us really leather some of the lesser teams. However I still think that Xabi's ability to dictate the game is restricted somewhat by being asked to perform the holding role.

Alonso dictates the game from a deep position. In the same way Vieira does, Xavi does and Josep Guardiola did. Thats his best position, sitting infront of the defence, anchoring the midfield, holding his position, however you want to put it. His defensive ability in my opinion isn't far off what Hamann's was at all. He's a better alround player now than Hamann ever was.

However the reason i think it won't work is because of what you've said. Gerrard will do the attacking and Xabi will do the defending. Thats too one-demensional. Both need to do both. Gerrard is probably the best tackler at the club. He has the ability to go from box to box winning tackles and driving the team on. People talk about his creative quaities, for me, they're good but not what i'd describe as class. His ability to spot a clever pass isn't what Danny Murphy's was or Xabi's is, the execution of his passes isn't as good, however he has the drive, pace and power to force things upon opponents. He should use that power to basically do what Carragher does around Sami, sweep up and get involved everywhere else.

He is a box to box midfielder, he's not an attacking midfielder as some people like to claim. If you take away Gerrard's tackling, aggression and determination you lose half of the player just as you do if you fix him to a holding position. He doesn't have the intelligence to hold and dictate, nor does he have the the skill and technical ability to be the main creative player.

He does have the ability to force a game though through sheer persistance, drive and heart. Gerrard is VERY good at most things, the only attributes i'd say he's class at are shooting, tackling, aggression, determination, leadership, stamina and alround power and pace.

At the minute though, when he's out wide, we have balance, when he's not, we don't.

Alonso hasn't really been up to scratch for the past 6 weeks, and in general, hasn't matched the expectations he set last season. However he's still a superb player and once the team actually has some better attacking players in it, we'll see a better Alonso.

At the moment, you guys are right, he doesn't have as much to his game as Gerrard does, but in his role as a deep lying playmaker, he doesn't necessarily need to. Teams are paying a lot more attention to Alonso this summer, so it has gotten harder for him, but his teammates are making harder for him also:

Crouch - stays deep.
Morientes - comes deep.
Gerrard - cuts inside, all over the place.
Kewell - cuts inside a lot as well.

So at any given time, theres never 2 men on the wings and 2 up front, so who is Alonso meant to be setting up play for? Naturally it's going to be more difficult for him.

For all of Riise's limitations, he stays out wide, and if you look at some of the games from last season, you'll notice that a lot of Alonso's great balls, were to Riise way out wide, who the defence hadn't bothered to pick up.... i.e. he stretched teams.

If we pull our fingers out in the summer and buy some half decent attacking players, you'll see a marked improvement next season.

At the end of the day, who would you have in his stead? Pirlo and Xavi perhaps, but that's it.
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