Liverpool FC Forum

by **woof woof !** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:05 pm

s@int wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:Pennant performed much better than I expected .I can't understand why Rafa didn't start with Gerrard out left and Pennant out right. Bellamy and Crouch up front. Surely we would've battered Haifa ?

If he had used that formation Woof, Gerrard would also have provided better support and cover for Riise than Bolo did. Maybe Riise wouldn't have looked so poor then. Obviously going forward they would have been much better with 2 strikers.

Aye, and Gerrard is no slouch at left mid . Maybe Rafa might start second leg with that formation ?

by **taff** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:23 pm

It used to be the case that new signings were given time to settle, I remenber countless arguments on this site about "its his first year " etc and give him time, while football now throws up our first game of the season as a multi million pound game that we have to win to attract players income etc we should still not overlook the fact that this was our first game. The charity cup hasnt even been played yet.

I cant say it was great watching it last night but lets keep a perspective, lets see them come and attack us and leave some gaps for our newly aquired pace.

Benitez did not look happy and I would not be looking forward to reporting to Melwood today if i played last night. Especially if I was Riise

by **stmichael** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:30 pm

taff wrote:I would not be looking forward to reporting to Melwood today if i played last night. Especially if I was Riise

several people on here (notably leon and myself) have been pointing out that riise is a weak link in our defence for ages. he gets caught out of position too much as is sloppy in possession. in a way he's fortunate that aurelio is injured at the moment.

by **woof woof !** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:34 pm

I've always thought he made a better left mid than a left back . Not gonna write him off though . Yer fickle b'stards .

by **taff** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:39 pm

I know about the views on JAR and cant really argue too much to be honest

But he has played well without too much competition for his place but now weve got a brazilian left back he has a stinker

I do like him to be honest and hope he plays a succesful part this season but it wont break my heart if he is replaced by somebody better, very vague daft argument I know.

With our midfield maybe we should ask FIFA to make it 12 a side so nobody gets dropped

by **Pakat** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:42 pm

woof woof ! wrote:I've always thought he made a better left mid than a left back .

I agree, he isn't really perfect when it comes to defending, but going forward, he's ace.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:47 pm

stmichael wrote:
taff wrote:I would not be looking forward to reporting to Melwood today if i played last night. Especially if I was Riise

several people on here (notably leon and myself) have been pointing out that riise is a weak link in our defence for ages. he gets caught out of position too much as is sloppy in possession. in a way he's fortunate that aurelio is injured at the moment.

When you last mentioned Riise being a weak link defensively I thought you were talking out your a*se (I was just too polite to mention it) Now I am not so sure your wrong. Having said that, he still has a lot to offer and I think his strengths still outweigh any defensive weaknesses.

by **Ace Ventura** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:37 pm

Got to agree with woof, Gerrard should of started on the left and Crouch upfront, Bellamy was too isolated and when Pennant had the ball in the first half he didnt have enough options in the box.
Gerrard would also of been able to come back onto his right foot and have a few shots at goal.
We got an ok result but it could of been better, like St mike said i hope that rafa can see that playing 1 upfront with our personnel does not work, and we need to be a bit more ambitious with team selection.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:12 pm

Well, well...a quality footballing thread at last! Bless you Big Mick!

You always raise such compelling discussions. Here's my two cents, for what they are worth.

First off, it's very early days yet and I would hope and expect that some of the issues you've raised--particularly the Pennant/Finnan combination down the right--will be resolved with more games together. Let's see how it develops, although I do acknowledge your concerns about the compatibility of their styles of play.

For me, the real issue is the Gerrard/Pennant issue. This seems a real conundrum, especially with Sissoko maturing by the minute (let alone the game) and continuing to make himself virtually undroppable. Where does that leave Stevie and, by extension, Pennant? Well, it somewhat depends on the formation: 4-4-2 means someone gets dropped and Pennant seems the most likely candidate of that threesome (foursome if you add Alonso to the mix); 4-5-1 allows all of them to play but, as last night revealed, not without some problems.

To my mind, there is a real paradox here with Pennant. He would undoubtedly be at his most effective in a 4-4-2 formation with two strikers--one being Crouch or, if he arrives, Kuyt--to aim those crosses at. The trouble? Playing four in midfield will generally find him as the odd man out in order to accommodate Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko. Conversely, in a 4-5-1 he can play wide right with Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko in CM, but he will be less effective because his crosses into the box will have no one to get on the end of more often than not.

What to do? Well, first, he'll have to work hard on his game in training in order to add different dimensions. Sometimes, another sprint to the byline and a cross deep into the box is not what's needed. As you say, Mick, if he can learn to cut inside and provide space for Finnan to fill and if he can get into the box himself to slip teammates in and carry a goal threat himself, that would be fantastic.

In the foreseeable, though--when Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko are all healthy, eligible for selection and playing in the form they're capable of--Pennant will have to become an option from the bench. We'll bring him on late in the game to stretch defenses and get in some crosses (so long as Crouch or Kuyt are on the pitch too, though!). He'll also be useful to give one of the above three a rest in matches against lesser opposition where we still have the capacity to dominate the midfield even with the likes of Stevie, Xabi or Momo on the bench.

So, the bottom line for me is that, bright start aside (and I'm chuffed that Pennant has slotted in so well to date as I really wanted us to sign him)--JP will need to make way for our "big three" a fair bit this season if we are to play at our best level.

Tell you what, though, it is so pleasant to be able to discuss genuine selection problems for once rather than debating how we are to achieve results with a limited squad. :cool:

by **stmichael** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:24 pm

Bad Bob wrote:In the foreseeable, though--when Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko are all healthy, eligible for selection and playing in the form they're capable of--Pennant will have to become an option from the bench. We'll bring him on late in the game to stretch defenses and get in some crosses (so long as Crouch or Kuyt are on the pitch too, though!). He'll also be useful to give one of the above three a rest in matches against lesser opposition where we still have the capacity to dominate the midfield even with the likes of Stevie, Xabi or Momo on the bench.

I'd pretty much agree with that

The selection of Stevie "in the hole" last night did smack a bit of Rafa looking for a way to not to foresake the qualities that Momo and Xabi have, but still shoe horn him into the side somewhere. However, Rafa doesn't strike me as the kind of manager to put a player in just because he needs to justify him being there. I honestly don't think Gerrard would've been used in that role had Fowler been fit, or we had managed to get another striker in by this stage.

With reference to both the strikers and the central midfield pairing I think, assuming everyone's fit and we get all the players in we aim to, we'll be very horses for courses this year. The combination selected in the middle of the park will probably be "Gerrard and", with his partner being selected dependent on the opposition. If we need a player alongside him to destroy, pick off breaking players, smother attacking opponents then it's Momo. If we want more craft, guile and distribution from deep it'll be Xabi.

by **stmichael** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:52 pm

s@int wrote:
stmichael wrote:
taff wrote:I would not be looking forward to reporting to Melwood today if i played last night. Especially if I was Riise

several people on here (notably leon and myself) have been pointing out that riise is a weak link in our defence for ages. he gets caught out of position too much as is sloppy in possession. in a way he's fortunate that aurelio is injured at the moment.

When you last mentioned Riise being a weak link defensively I thought you were talking out your a*se (I was just too polite to mention it) Now I am not so sure your wrong. Having said that, he still has a lot to offer and I think his strengths still outweigh any defensive weaknesses.

I've never been convinced by him as a defender although he did improve last year.He's got some great attributes like stamina and (sometimes) shooting but defending isn't one of them.

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:58 pm

Agree with you lot on Riise being our achilles heel in defence....

and mick is right, the link up play down the flanks between the fullbacks and wingers weren't too hot....

Should be a lot better once Aurelio and Gonzalez gel down the left and Gerrard and Finnan hook back up.....

Personally I don't like to see Stevie on the right.... I don't think that this is his best position... He's at his most potent in central midifeld.... However, with the team we've got, he'll have to make do with the RM slot.

This next bit may not be too palatable to most but IMO Alonso and Gerrard don't complement each other too well in central midfield. Gerrard needs a Hamann or Momo next to him. Alonso's too brilliant a player to be able to sit back in Stevie's shadow so to speak.... they both try to outdo each other with the killer balls and this just screws up our rythm and gets us into the long ball mode too often... I'm guessing Rafa recognizes this and due to Stevie's versatility, he gets parked on the right.... BTW, he's not as effective playing in the hole either.... If we're gonna use that formation, i agree that Luis is still our best option.

Fitting Gerrard, Momo and Alonso into the same team (without Gerrard playing on the right) remains the biggest challenge for Rafa this season and is key to us attaining the all too necessary balance.....

Everything else can be worked out....

Oh... and another thing.... I pray that GOD gets more regular playing time.... He's still the best we got upfront.

And finally.... thanx mick for finally getting the forum back on track with real football discussions.... We were really scraping the bottom of the barrel for a few weeks there.... no offense intended....

by **Sabre** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:23 am

So we've had our first competitive game in anger and what were the lessons learned about the new players and how they will fit into the equation? Well the first thing you must avoid whenever you change a team unit is that contrary to what you are trying to achieve, you actually make the thing worse with your tinkering.We saw a few of the new lads last night and did the team function better or worse than it would have had they not played?

I'd like to answer this before, but I had some connection troubles. Interesting debate. I think the reason of not playing that well is the moment of the season we are now, still preparing, we're going to be another team in 3 weeks.

Many have said that Pennant was our best player (I personally thought Carragher was but I digress), but did his presence make the team better or worse than the one which had a storming second half of the season and won the FA Cup? Well through absolutely no fault of his own I think him playing wide right is almost by definition going to make us function at a slightly lower level because it prevents our best player playing there, in his best position.

For me too often last night Pennant and Finnan were stood within five yards of each each other, effectively trying to do the same thing.

Yeh sometimes Pennant and Finnan didn't colaborate well, but I honestly think that's normal, it takes some time for the players to know well what will the other one do everytime.

That coordination will come, but in the meantime Pennant showed he knows to cross the ball well when running, gave the ball well in a couple of counterattacks and played well. MOM? I'm not sure, but he definitely looked promising.

I disagree in the best position part. Which is Gerrard's best position? FFS, he played on the left hand side yesterday, he can play well anywhere, in the right too, but I DO think that his best position is in the centre attacking midfielder. Of course when you play against a very deep 4-5-1 like the Israeli one, it's very difficult to shine on that position, too many men near the area. But I do think Pennant is bringing an option that we didn't have, and Gerrard shouldn't play on the right often.

When a wide man and a full-back work properly in tandem (Beckham and Neville in their pomp being a good example) one of them, normally the full-back bombs on down the line opening up the space for the winger to move inside, or if the winger is blocked off the ball is pinged back for the full-back to lift into the area. Unfortunately, Finnan doesn't really bomb on and Pennant doesn't like to come inside. The balance isn't quite right and it's something they are going to have to work on. Otherwise Pennant is going to struggle to get a game because I can see Gerrard playing there to provide the balance (he of course both bombs on and comes inside enough for two people which makes the whole thing work).

What you describe in the first three lines happened, but will be solved.

For me it was a game to move the ball with patience and we run with the ball in the feet too many times (even Crouch tried to do that and he shouldn't), thus Alonso didn't enter the game that much. When you play so deep defences you have to have patience to move the ball, not trying to beat the player one on one relying on your better skill.

It's easy on the evidence of last night to see why the manager wanted Alves. The thought of him and Gerrard in tandem down the right would have scared pretty much anybody in Europe I would have thought.

Alves would be having the same adaptation process that Pennant is having. I'm a bit surprised in this early opinion Bigmick, you wrote a good post about Pennant after the spanking against his former team. Give him some time!

Bellamy will provide balance to the attack with his pace but must of course play with somebody who provides an arial threat to the opposition. Too often last night Haifa were able to defend on the edge of their own penalty area to negate the Welshmans biggest asset. Him and Crouch not Fowler is the absolutely obvious pairing though if Pennant is going to hug the touchline like he did last night and put crosses in of the quality he did in the last ten minutes, the England man is going to have to attack the ball better than he has done in his Anfield career sofar.

I'll wait more time until I give my opinion about Bellamy. He scored a goal yes, but Anfield also chanted LG's song and Crouch's song requesting their presence (I think). I don't think that he'll be the answer that we needed when we were frustrated with Morientes or Crouch last season... but we'll see.

I liked LG being in his best position. He provided danger, and his unique bad spot is that he dived (I think) when he shouldn't.

Gonzales took his goal well and showed good anticipation and desire to get there in the first place. Unfortunately, along with many others he showed a total lack of game appreciation by over celebrating the goal when the ball should have been back in the centre-circle quick time, and also by not getting the final set piece into the box.

Bigmick! give the lad a breath, he made a goal and a great cross in three minutes.Perhaps he should have picked the ball and run to the middle, but I think it was the whole team who celebrated the goal.

Overall I thought there were promising signs but I'm a touch nervous about the second leg if I'm honest. Failure to qualify for the group stages would be an absolute catastrophe and we can only hope that the Pennant/Finnan axis is functioning better by then and that Bellamy/Crouch or Bellamy/Kuyt is going to score us a goal for my suspicion is that we'll need at least one in Cyprus.

They're not going to play that deep in Cyprus, because they can't. And when they put the defence line higher you'll see the full weakness of that team. We're far better. 2-1 is dangerous yes, but not with the difference between the two teams. Plus, Liverpool will be stronger next week, and even stronger the next one. Don't worry Bigmick!

BTW, Hope you understood my points, my english is also on preseason!

by **stmichael** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:59 am

There were a few instances of the lack of understanding between Finnan, Pennant and Bellamy. Bellamy made a couple of runs into the channel and Finnan, either did not see the run or chose a pass inside. Also, the fact that Bellamy was virtually a lone ranger upfront meant that whenever he ran the channels it meant there was nobody in the box to get on the end of any crosses until Crouch came on. He is so quick that once the team get used to the kind of runs he makes we will reap the benefit.

by **bigmick** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:09 pm

Sabre wrote:I'd like to answer this before, but I had some connection troubles. Interesting debate. I think the reason of not playing that well is the moment of the season we are now, still preparing, we're going to be another team in 3 weeks.

It's easy on the evidence of last night to see why the manager wanted Alves. The thought of him and Gerrard in tandem down the right would have scared pretty much anybody in Europe I would have thought.

Alves would be having the same adaptation process that Pennant is having. I'm a bit surprised in this early opinion Bigmick, you wrote a good post about Pennant after the spanking against his former team. Give him some time!

[

Sorry sabes I didn't really explain myself very well here. Given the fact that I like Gerrard at right-mid (and even those like yourself who prefer him elsewhere would probably concede he was the best right-mid in the Prem last season) I would've liked to have seen Alves at right-back in and around him. My point was not so much a criticism of pennant as an observation on Finnan.

It is my hunch that Finnan is a good solid player who has been probably made to look better than he is by the presence of Gerrard at right-mid. Anybody who he comes up against Finnan spends more time going backwards than forwards when faced with Gerrard, and such is the concern teams show about our captain he is generally afforded plenty of time and space to cross.

Now I thought that Pennant did very well the other night but the limitations in his game compared to Gerrard (no shame there needless to say) are obvious. He isn't for instance going to score upwards of twenty goals from right-midfield, nor is he going to influence games in the same way that Gerrard can. He can however, if Rafa agrees with you Sabes provide a good option on the right while Gerrard moves inside. If we are not going to miss our captain though to a very high degree, Pennant is going to need to work much better with whoever plays at right-back than he did the other night and also chip in with more goals than he has ever scored aswell. I think he can do it, but remain unconvinced that he and Finnan are the ideal pairing either defensively or offensively.

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