Liverpool FC Forum

by **JC_81** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:21 pm

What is it with the best English players we've had at Liverpool in recent times that they struggle to reproduce their form at International level? Bad luck? Coincidence? Or can anyone come up with a real reason?

John Barnes - His wonder goal v Brazil aside, he often got booed by England fans as he couldn't produce his LFC form for the national side.

Mark Wright - Regarded as a solid defender for England and Derby, then moved to LFC where his form dipped badly for a few seasons. When he re-emerged as a good defender for us he was too old to be considered again for England.

Steve McManaman - One of our most skilful players, man-marked every time he played for us because he was so dangerous. Often criticised for a lack of end-product, but in his late-20's he added this to his game and was snapped up by Madrid, the best club side in the world at the time. Yet he rarely produced for England. Struggled to hold Steve Stone off under Venables at Euro '96 and then didn't get a look in after the emergence of Beckham.

Robbie Fowler - To be fair he never let himself down for England, but still didn't quite reach his club form for them. A victim of being a young striker when England had a host of experienced strikers in that position - Shearer, Sheringham, Wright, Ferdinand etc.

Jamie Redknapp - One of the best passers in the English game in his prime, but rarely looked the business for England. Often played wide left out of position.

Paul Ince - Perhaps not a good example as he was just past his peak when he joined us. Had been superb for England when at United and Inter, but found himself left out of the squad while at LFC, before earning a recall when he joined Boro.

Michael Owen - The one true exception that bucks the trend. Equally as effective for LFC and England

This brings us to our current players...

Gerrard - Unquestionably the best English midfielder, but is a victim of Sven's tactics where he's played out of position to accomodate Lampard. Despite this he has rarely looked the business for England even when deployed in his best position.

Carragher - Hard to judge really as I can hardly remember him getting a game for England in his best position of centre half.

Crouch - Has done well for England to date, but still too early in his International career to judge.

I can't think of an underlying reason why LFC players of recent times have been largely disappointing for England, the case of each player and reasons why they haven't done it for England have to be looked at individually imo, but it certainly is a coincidence when you think about it. Hopefully the current crop of LFC players can well and truly buck the trend either during this world cup or when Sven finally walks.

by **Smeg** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:17 pm

john craig wrote:What is it with the best English players we've had at Liverpool in recent times that they struggle to reproduce their form at International level? Bad luck? Coincidence? Or can anyone come up with a real reason?

John Barnes - His wonder goal v Brazil aside, he often got booed by England fans as he couldn't produce his LFC form for the national side.

Steve McManaman - One of our most skilful players, man-marked every time he played for us because he was so dangerous. Often criticised for a lack of end-product, but in his late-20's he added this to his game and was snapped up by Madrid, the best club side in the world at the time. Yet he rarely produced for England. Struggled to hold Steve Stone off under Venables at Euro '96 and then didn't get a look in after the emergence of Beckham.

Robbie Fowler - To be fair he never let himself down for England, but still didn't quite reach his club form for them. A victim of being a young striker when England had a host of experienced strikers in that position - Shearer, Sheringham, Wright, Ferdinand etc.

Jamie Redknapp - One of the best passers in the English game in his prime, but rarely looked the business for England. Often played wide left out of position.

This brings us to our current players...

Gerrard - Unquestionably the best English midfielder, but is a victim of Sven's tactics where he's played out of position to accomodate Lampard. Despite this he has rarely looked the business for England even when deployed in his best position.

Carragher - Hard to judge really as I can hardly remember him getting a game for England in his best position of centre half.

Crouch - Has done well for England to date, but still too early in his International career to judge.

I can't think of an underlying reason why LFC players of recent times have been largely disappointing for England, the case of each player and reasons why they haven't done it for England have to be looked at individually imo, but it certainly is a coincidence when you think about it. Hopefully the current crop of LFC players can well and truly buck the trend either during this world cup or when Sven finally walks.

Thats why I dont like England and want Spain to win. Heck Il even back the Germans if only didi was there. Too many :censored:

wits ...

by **stmichael** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:07 pm

around euro 96 time fowler was by far the most lethal finisher in this country if not europe. the only reason he never got a look in for england was because sheringham and shearer were so good as a partnership. if you were picking the strikers on goalscoring ability, fowler would have walked in the side.

mcmanaman was one of the most naturally gifted players i've seen in a liverpool shirt. however he got played out of position for england a lot of the time (i remember him being played on the left wing at euro 2000). he also suffered because when venables was manager, he played with three centre halves and wing backs.

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:16 pm

What is it with the best English players we've had at Liverpool in recent times that they struggle to reproduce their form at International level? Bad luck? Coincidence? Or can anyone come up with a real reason?

I can't blame Eriksson, if I was him, the best midfielder he can play in front of the defence is Gerrard. He could put a destructive midfielder there, but Gerrard is more complete. Actually the way I see it it's the proof of How Gerrard is a better player than Lampard, I'm not sure Lampard could play in the position that Gerrard is playing, or not that well.

It's true that it keeps Gerrard from shining, but it might be better for the team. If Alonso was English, I'm sure the midfield of English midfield would be the same of Liverpool with Gerrard on his normal role.

Ah for what is worth, I'm a bit surprised of how well are the Spanish pundits are talking about Crouchy. 3 Spanish coaches have said that they'd love to have him. How do you do Crouch's marking? wondered Lillo a Spanish coach and pundit, if you stick to him he'll use his body, if you give him one metre, you realise soon enough he's skillful in his control, and he has a decent finishing. This kind of comments are being made here, where as some English twáts still are questioning him

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:26 pm

I dont think its a case of Liverpool players not being able to perform for England, Barnes and Mcmanaman the exceptions. If you needed to look up enigma in the dictionary you'd see Barnes name next to it. I could never figure it out why, maybe it was the pressure or the fact he just simply felt more comfortable playing for the Pool, I dont know. Same with Mcmanaman he at times could never get into the games.

Mark Wright I wouldnt agree with he was a quality Ch for England with Des Walker partnering him in Italia 90. Also throughout his Derby days he was a decent defender, I think we got him later on in his career when injuries seemed to hamper him to.

Same with Ince, he was excellent for England. Fowler I dont think ever really got a good look in It would be interesting to see how many games he played consecutively for England.

Redknapp was a very good premiership player and as you say was one of the best passers around in his peak days. Again he was another familiar face in the physios room, and if I'm honest as good as he was I dont think he was good enough step up and play at international level. Dont get me wrong he was good but he never could stamp his authority on an England game and didnt have that extra bit special quality needed.

Gerrard well thats already been identified as a Sven selection problem, nothing to do with the player himself. Although he's never really set the international scene alight I think it was something like 22 games with England until he tasted defeat, so thats saying something, plus his goal against the Germans. Its certainly not him thats not rising to the challenge for England more so the manager.

Poor Cara another player whos looked as a top utility player, a victim of his own abilities and competition for Ch's is one of the strongest positions we have in strenght and depth. Again never really got a look in, but he's never really caught the eye when he has, still solid enough though.

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:30 pm

Sabre wrote:
What is it with the best English players we've had at Liverpool in recent times that they struggle to reproduce their form at International level? Bad luck? Coincidence? Or can anyone come up with a real reason?

I can't blame Eriksson, if I was him, the best midfielder he can play in front of the defence is Gerrard. He could put a destructive midfielder there, but Gerrard is more complete. Actually the way I see it it's the proof of How Gerrard is a better player than Lampard, I'm not sure Lampard could play in the position that Gerrard is playing, or not that well.

It's true that it keeps Gerrard from shining, but it might be better for the team. If Alonso was English, I'm sure the midfield of English midfield would be the same of Liverpool with Gerrard on his normal role.

Ah for what is worth, I'm a bit surprised of how well are the Spanish pundits are talking about Crouchy. 3 Spanish coaches have said that they'd love to have him. How do you do Crouch's marking? wondered Lillo a Spanish coach and pundit, if you stick to him he'll use his body, if you give him one metre, you realise soon enough he's skillful in his control, and he has a decent finishing. This kind of comments are being made here, where as some English twáts still are questioning him

Its a fair point that Sabre but it really annoys me, its like we are saying lets do all we can to accomodate Lampard.
If i was Sven i would play Carrick as the deeper player and Gerrard further forward.
But to be honest Scott Parker should be in the squad and imo playing, he would be ideal in the role Gerrard is playing with Stevie further forward, but Sven would never leave out fat Frank.

by **48-1119859832** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:52 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
Sabre wrote:
What is it with the best English players we've had at Liverpool in recent times that they struggle to reproduce their form at International level? Bad luck? Coincidence? Or can anyone come up with a real reason?

I can't blame Eriksson, if I was him, the best midfielder he can play in front of the defence is Gerrard. He could put a destructive midfielder there, but Gerrard is more complete. Actually the way I see it it's the proof of How Gerrard is a better player than Lampard, I'm not sure Lampard could play in the position that Gerrard is playing, or not that well.

It's true that it keeps Gerrard from shining, but it might be better for the team. If Alonso was English, I'm sure the midfield of English midfield would be the same of Liverpool with Gerrard on his normal role.

Ah for what is worth, I'm a bit surprised of how well are the Spanish pundits are talking about Crouchy. 3 Spanish coaches have said that they'd love to have him. How do you do Crouch's marking? wondered Lillo a Spanish coach and pundit, if you stick to him he'll use his body, if you give him one metre, you realise soon enough he's skillful in his control, and he has a decent finishing. This kind of comments are being made here, where as some English twáts still are questioning him

Its a fair point that Sabre but it really annoys me, its like we are saying lets do all we can to accomodate Lampard.
If i was Sven i would play Carrick as the deeper player and Gerrard further forward.
But to be honest Scott Parker should be in the squad and imo playing, he would be ideal in the role Gerrard is playing with Stevie further forward, but Sven would never leave out fat Frank.

Scott Parker has only become this more cautious and defensive player at his small time with Chelsea and has been used more in that position under Newcastle. It restricts a big part of his game which made him a desirable player at Charlton.

I have a suggestion for why some players don't shine on the International stage, due to their key abilities being limited to include other players e.g Gerrard and Lampard. I think this is down to a) too many big game individuals not being able to fully function as a unit. B) Manager's trying to cram all of "the best" talent into one squad, instead of looking at what players are ideal to play in that role.

Gerrard has never really had a chance to shine on the biggest stage because he has always had to play second fiddle to Lampard in recent times and other players before that. Carragher has always played well for England, he's just never been played in his most comfortable position. As well as never being played on a regular basis.

by **drummerphil** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:01 pm

Ray Clemance,Ray Kennedy,Phil Neal,PhilThompson,Terry Mac,Emlyn Hughes,Roger Hunt,Kevin Keegan, etc............in what was a decline for English Football with no world cup qualification in 74 and 78.A period when our players were the best in the business with uefa cup and 3 european cup victories along side ruling at home was very odd.Our players never looked uncomfortable in an England shirt and in fact you could bet your life on one of our own being man of the match,but as a team along side decent forest,derby,man city players etc couldnt win a bloody thing.I remember one friendly against Spain in 81/82 that Ron Greenwood had 7 liverpool players in the first 11 with 2 more on the bench.WHY

??? BLOODY GOD KNOWS....With the squad that England had we should have dominated internationally but we were not even close..........Football will always throw up weird and wonderful facts and figures but in reality a dead cert never happens.

by **Good Bob** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:20 pm

0asis wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Sabre wrote:
What is it with the best English players we've had at Liverpool in recent times that they struggle to reproduce their form at International level? Bad luck? Coincidence? Or can anyone come up with a real reason?

I can't blame Eriksson, if I was him, the best midfielder he can play in front of the defence is Gerrard. He could put a destructive midfielder there, but Gerrard is more complete. Actually the way I see it it's the proof of How Gerrard is a better player than Lampard, I'm not sure Lampard could play in the position that Gerrard is playing, or not that well.

It's true that it keeps Gerrard from shining, but it might be better for the team. If Alonso was English, I'm sure the midfield of English midfield would be the same of Liverpool with Gerrard on his normal role.

Ah for what is worth, I'm a bit surprised of how well are the Spanish pundits are talking about Crouchy. 3 Spanish coaches have said that they'd love to have him. How do you do Crouch's marking? wondered Lillo a Spanish coach and pundit, if you stick to him he'll use his body, if you give him one metre, you realise soon enough he's skillful in his control, and he has a decent finishing. This kind of comments are being made here, where as some English twáts still are questioning him

Its a fair point that Sabre but it really annoys me, its like we are saying lets do all we can to accomodate Lampard.
If i was Sven i would play Carrick as the deeper player and Gerrard further forward.
But to be honest Scott Parker should be in the squad and imo playing, he would be ideal in the role Gerrard is playing with Stevie further forward, but Sven would never leave out fat Frank.

Scott Parker has only become this more cautious and defensive player at his small time with Chelsea and has been used more in that position under Newcastle. It restricts a big part of his game which made him a desirable player at Charlton.

I have a suggestion for why some players don't shine on the International stage, due to their key abilities being limited to include other players e.g Gerrard and Lampard. I think this is down to a) too many big game individuals not being able to fully function as a unit. B) Manager's trying to cram all of "the best" talent into one squad, instead of looking at what players are ideal to play in that role.

Gerrard has never really had a chance to shine on the biggest stage because he has always had to play second fiddle to Lampard in recent times and other players before that. Carragher has always played well for England, he's just never been played in his most comfortable position. As well as never being played on a regular basis.

The reason why players don't perform at level is because they aren't international class players. Its as simple as that.

Players at club level are moulded into a team and have a specific role to play within a team and are usually all used to there strengths. They play in a system that suits the players at a club. IE, Frank Lampard is a good player. No question, he however is employed by Chelsea to get forward, support attacks and shoot and generally try to score goals. Its what he's good at. So therefore he has a holding midfielder and a box to box player beside him to get the best out of his talents.

Players like Lampard, Terry, Carragher, Neville and Crouch are decent players. However they play so well for their clubs as they play that way week in week out in the same role with the same players. They know there role and are comfortable with it. They practise every day in training and work on details. At international level the game is very different.

You don't have the same intensity and relationships with the players around you and you need to be able to adapt to situations you won't face in your club. IE Carragher and Terry would look decent on paper as both are good players and Terry is SIMILAR to Sami Hyypia. However at right back we don't have Finnan, we have Gary Neville who is very different.

A big advantage in my opinion is to know the players you are playing next to. If it was my England side i'd player with a back four of Cole, Cambell, Ferdinand and Neville. Not only are they the best players, they are also from only two clubs. Basically from one to another they know each others game inside out and the two that need to link up least play with each other the least. This not only creates understanding, but you have a good mix. For all the critisism Ferdinand gets, 99.9% of it unfair i might add, i would be suprised after the tournement if anyone questioned his selection in the team.

A few years ago England had Ferdinand, Campbell, Scholes, Gerrard, Beckham, A.Cole and Owen there were world class/top class/international class players. They had a good mix, had this team had Rooney and Robinson they could really have pushed on. But the likes of Campbell and Scholes haven't been replaced with equal quality while Beckham, Ferdinand and most certainly Owen aren't at the levels they were at.

Now they have Ferdinand, Gerrard, J.Cole, A.Cole, Beckham, Owen and Rooney. Maybe Robinson. They still have a decent side, however its not as good as it was. The only world class players are Gerrard and Rooney. Owen isn't what he was, Beckham isn't, Lampard is no Scholes and Terry isn't as good as Campbell was. Gerrard and Cole have improved on the old team and Robinson is an improvement in goal, the main difference however is Owen and Beckham simply aren't what they were.

Also certain players aren't played to there strengths. IE alot of people sit there and say how Gerrard is at his best going forward...

BOLLOX!! Gerrard's at his best going forward AND defending. He's not exceptional at either, he's very good alround. If you limit him to attacking or defending you lose 50% of his game.

Gerrard would benefit playing next to Barton or Parker who are similar players. Not Carrick and not Lampard. Gerrard could also play with Cole in the centre, but no manager has the balls to play Joe Cole there even though its crystal clear thats his best position and a position he can dictate the pace of the game from.

At the end of the day, Brazil have Juninho, Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Adriano who are WORLD CLASS then Roberto Carlos, Emerson and Lucio who are also excellent players.

Argentina have Messi, Crespo, Tevez, Riquelme, Heinze, Ayala...

England haven't got a chance. The team of five years ago might have, not this team though. Definately not.

by **JC_81** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:42 pm

Stu, a fair bit of what you say makes sense. But you're saying Gerrard is not at his best going forward or defending, but that he is at his best doing both. So that would suggest he's best at centre mid? Yet it was only the other day that you coined the phrase that Steven Gerrard 'is not a centre mid'. Bit confusing mate :laugh:

Also, seriously how can you say you'd select Campbell and Ferdinand as your 2 centre halves for England? Granted at the last world cup they were both at the peaks of their game, but not now. Campbell is a spent force, his positional play has been very poor recently (due to the lack of football he's played over the last 2 years I accept) and he no longer has that burst of recovery pace that made him the best centre back in England 4 years ago.

Ferdinand is just a liability. I'll accept he's the most talented footballer out of he, Campbell, Carra and Terry, but he's also the most mistake-prone. He's got it all in his game, except concentration, which is arguably the most important attribute in a good defender and that's why I have my doubts about him.

Terry has to play, he's the best centre back England have. So solid and you can count the mistakes he's made in the last 4 seasons on one hand. Carra's not far behind but is the weakest of the 4 in the air. He makes up for that by having the best positioning though. I can see why Sven may not want to pick Carra and Terry together because of their combined lack of pace, but Terry at least has got to play.

by **Good Bob** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:55 pm

john craig wrote:Stu, a fair bit of what you say makes sense. But you're saying Gerrard is not at his best going forward or defending, but that he is at his best doing both. So that would suggest he's best at centre mid? Yet it was only the other day that you coined the phrase that Steven Gerrard 'is not a centre mid'. Bit confusing mate

Also, seriously how can you say you'd select Campbell and Ferdinand as your 2 centre halves for England? Granted at the last world cup they were both at the peaks of their game, but not now. Campbell is a spent force, his positional play has been very poor recently (due to the lack of football he's played over the last 2 years I accept) and he no longer has that burst of recovery pace that made him the best centre back in England 4 years ago.

Ferdinand is just a liability. I'll accept he's the most talented footballer out of he, Campbell, Carra and Terry, but he's also the most mistake-prone. He's got it all in his game, except concentration, which is arguably the most important attribute in a good defender and that's why I have my doubts about him.

Terry has to play, he's the best centre back England have. So solid and you can count the mistakes he's made in the last 4 seasons on one hand. Carra's not far behind but is the weakest of the 4 in the air. He makes up for that by having the best positioning though. I can see why Sven may not want to pick Carra and Terry together because of their combined lack of pace, but Terry at least has got to play.

On the issue of Gerrard. Alonso is a centre mid, Scholes is a centre mid. Both are great footballers. Both are probably "world class" centre mids, but not world class players. Gerrard is probably a world class alrounder, but not a world class centre mid. For me he's definately better on the right, simply because he's got more of a free role to do everything.

He plays sloppy passes and doesn't keep possession as well as some players and certainly struggles to dictate the pace of a game. Its confusing, i know what i mean even if i'm not explaining it that clearly.

As for Campbell it wasn't just about pace. He had everything a defender needs, but to suggest he's been poor recently and he's a spent force is shocking. He's still a quality player and still has pace. He's not played alot recently, i accept that. But at international level mate my point is you pick players on ability, not form. With form players you'll come unstuck as generally they aren't the best players. IE Lampard. He's unquestionabley the most consistent player in the league and always performs at a good level, if you're going to sit there and tell me he's better than Gerrard and a shed load of others though i'm gonna question if we're talking about the same player.

John Terry isn't an international class player by any stretch of the imagination. He's overated on the ball, he's like Carragher, all heart and play like he does for the club he loves. I'm not going to repeat myself again about systems and players playing with the same players in the same system in training every day.

Like i said, at international level, its a VERY different ball game alround. But still, what would i know ay?

by **red_guy** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:40 am

Ace Ventura wrote:
Sabre wrote:
What is it with the best English players we've had at Liverpool in recent times that they struggle to reproduce their form at International level? Bad luck? Coincidence? Or can anyone come up with a real reason?

I can't blame Eriksson, if I was him, the best midfielder he can play in front of the defence is Gerrard. He could put a destructive midfielder there, but Gerrard is more complete. Actually the way I see it it's the proof of How Gerrard is a better player than Lampard, I'm not sure Lampard could play in the position that Gerrard is playing, or not that well.

It's true that it keeps Gerrard from shining, but it might be better for the team. If Alonso was English, I'm sure the midfield of English midfield would be the same of Liverpool with Gerrard on his normal role.

Ah for what is worth, I'm a bit surprised of how well are the Spanish pundits are talking about Crouchy. 3 Spanish coaches have said that they'd love to have him. How do you do Crouch's marking? wondered Lillo a Spanish coach and pundit, if you stick to him he'll use his body, if you give him one metre, you realise soon enough he's skillful in his control, and he has a decent finishing. This kind of comments are being made here, where as some English twáts still are questioning him

Its a fair point that Sabre but it really annoys me, its like we are saying lets do all we can to accomodate Lampard.
If i was Sven i would play Carrick as the deeper player and Gerrard further forward.
But to be honest Scott Parker should be in the squad and imo playing, he would be ideal in the role Gerrard is playing with Stevie further forward, but Sven would never leave out fat Frank.

Definitely ace. Just imagine fat frank as a Villa / sunderland player. I don't think he would be listed for the world cup at all. Unfortunately he's a Cheatski player, and other players had to make way for him.....double standard.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:20 am

red_guy wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
Sabre wrote:
What is it with the best English players we've had at Liverpool in recent times that they struggle to reproduce their form at International level? Bad luck? Coincidence? Or can anyone come up with a real reason?

I can't blame Eriksson, if I was him, the best midfielder he can play in front of the defence is Gerrard. He could put a destructive midfielder there, but Gerrard is more complete. Actually the way I see it it's the proof of How Gerrard is a better player than Lampard, I'm not sure Lampard could play in the position that Gerrard is playing, or not that well.

It's true that it keeps Gerrard from shining, but it might be better for the team. If Alonso was English, I'm sure the midfield of English midfield would be the same of Liverpool with Gerrard on his normal role.

Ah for what is worth, I'm a bit surprised of how well are the Spanish pundits are talking about Crouchy. 3 Spanish coaches have said that they'd love to have him. How do you do Crouch's marking? wondered Lillo a Spanish coach and pundit, if you stick to him he'll use his body, if you give him one metre, you realise soon enough he's skillful in his control, and he has a decent finishing. This kind of comments are being made here, where as some English twáts still are questioning him

Its a fair point that Sabre but it really annoys me, its like we are saying lets do all we can to accomodate Lampard.
If i was Sven i would play Carrick as the deeper player and Gerrard further forward.
But to be honest Scott Parker should be in the squad and imo playing, he would be ideal in the role Gerrard is playing with Stevie further forward, but Sven would never leave out fat Frank.

Definitely ace. Just imagine fat frank as a Villa / sunderland player. I don't think he would be listed for the world cup at all. Unfortunately he's a Cheatski player, and other players had to make way for him.....double standard.

And double chin, the fat f*cker!!!!

by **henrytb** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:02 am

Too sad Michael Owen is gone. He's one of the best Liverpool player.

by **weringo** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:11 pm

Good Bob wrote:He plays sloppy passes and doesn't keep possession as well as some players and certainly struggles to dictate the pace of a game. Its confusing, i know what i mean even if i'm not explaining it that clearly.

I can see exactly what you mean by how Gerrard cannot dictate the pace of the game while players like Hamann and Alonso can. I also agree Gerrard should be playing right midfield rather than centre which is why I don't think we should be spending a lot of our transfer budget on a right midfielder when we could just buy Pennant for 5m as a backup for Gerrard.

In the last few games of the season I think Campbell showed he still was a world class centre back but he definately has lost a lot of his pace he used to have.

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