Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:42 pm

First of all, nobody can doubt that Steven Gerrard and Xabi Alonso are two of the best midfielders in Europe without any question but I just want to raise a point with regards to the balance that we currently have in the midfield area.

At times last season, several people on here were unsure that Gerrard and Alonso would work as a central two in a 4-4-2 formation (I use the CL Final 1st half as an example). Having said this, we hardly ever got to see them to play togeter for more than 3-4 games at a time due to the fact that Alonso missed four months through injury and Gerrard was also in and out of the side.

Also, even though some (Bigmick especially) had big reservations about the signing of Zenden, I think he's been missed terribly aswell. I only say this because we are so desperately lacking an attacking central midfielder when Gerrard is filling in on the right hand side that I am hoping miracles will happen.

Alonso has definitely evolved from the player he was last season in that he is taking much more defensive responsibility but his range of passing seems to have fallen slightly as a result. I certainly can't remember him giving the ball away so cheaply as he did on Sunday. Xabi Alonso is neither attacking nor defensive as such despite the fact that he playmakes from such a deep position. Last season despite only playing a handful of games the majority of fans were pleased with the Xabi & Gerrard partnership (I know i was). The Champions League final showed a problem there though because neither are too defensive, especially under the current manager. Gerrard is currently scoring at a ratio of nearly 1 goal every two games where as under Houllier is was near enough once every 7-8 games.

Momo Sissoko needs to be in the team every now and again, he's workrate is pretty good, he gets about the pitch and lets the opposition know he is there. Obviously I'd like to see more of Hamann but Sissoko needs bedding in and therefore will feature more. However I can't help thinking that Hamann is being vastly underused (even before Essien tried to end his career). I wouldn't be surprised at all if Hamann started away at Benfica in a couple of weeks time.

Despite the 4-4-2 formation which we seem to use now, I still think Benitez is aiming for the 4-3-2-1, with two secondary strikers playing off the lone man. I think if Benitez can find someone abit like Garcia who can get 10 goals a season and offer abit more then maybe we may use that. Although i think Benitez is keen to keep the 4-4-2 for the future but the 4-3-2-1 is still a possibility but you need the right players.

Thoughts?

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:57 pm

I dont think Rafa has one particular formation in mind. We have already seen how Rafa's tactical awareness means he plans for each game, changing personall and formation to overcome the weakness' and stranghts of the opposition.

The signing of agger, and rafa's insistence on his and Carra/Sami's ability to play in a back three, Sami in the moddle, Agger on the left and Carra on the right shows that Rafa wants to get people in who will allow him as many options as is possible.

I dont hink he has a set formation in mind, I think he wants the personall to play any !!

by **stmichael** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:10 pm

I agree Leon that having the ability to play different formations and having the ability to change these during games is what marks Rafa and dare I say it, Maureen, apart from anybody else at the moment.

The classic example was when we played Luton in the Cup. We started off playing 4-4-2 with Cisse and Crouch upfront but our midfield got completely overrun in the first half. After going 3-1 down, Rafa brought Sinama on for Sissoko and moved Cisse wide right which completely negated their fullbacks ability to get forward. We ended up playing about 2-3 different formations in that second half and it worked.

Not sure about 3 centre backs though. Tell me one side who've won anything playing this system? If we went with the 3-5-2 in terms of personnel we'd still have the same problem: where would the goals come from?

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:19 pm

I am not suggesting its a policy we should employ, just that the ability to revert to that system is a plus. We did in effect play three at the back with Traore, Sami and Carra for the first 20-25 minutes of the second half of a recent Cup Final, and we managed to get a couple of goals then if my memory serves me right.....

On the formation thing, I think that we need to get a natrually right sided player in, (I wont trivialise a decent thread by suggesting names from my last game of Championship manager), but when we do get one, I can still see Rafa employing Stevie, Luis and Djib (if still here) from time to time depending on what he wants from the role.

by **redmikey** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:28 pm

rafa s 4-4-2 is more like a 4-5-1 in my eyes he use a front man as a platform to attck from and with the right wide player it allows us to get more people attacking crosses. that is the plan any way.

but moro hasn't been getting the kind of servise that rafa whats because he fails to hold the ball up long enough.

crouch holds the paly up as well as any cf i have seen but then dosn't go on to get into killer positions to finish moves off.

rafa has tried playing 4-4-2 to use cissie pace but now has no faith in him apart from as aright sided cf/winger

rafa knows we are controlling games and that if we are not going to score on the break alot like his valencia team used to we are in need of quality world class finishers up front ie fowler and who ever comes in to replaces cissie when he goes.

I love the way rafa changes and maniplates thye games with clever subs as it shows his full understanding of the big piture in games, and his approach to all gameswith planning and attention to detail to get the best of the system he has decided to play that game..

overall i feel he plans formations around the players availble and the opponents of the day. so a set in stone 4-4-2 or what ever isn't going to happen any time soon..

adapt and overcome.. (stolen from heartbreak ridge great clint eastwood film) but a good moto anyway

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:33 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I dont think Rafa has one particular formation in mind. We have already seen how Rafa's tactical awareness means he plans for each game, changing personall and formation to overcome the weakness' and stranghts of the opposition.

The signing of agger, and rafa's insistence on his and Carra/Sami's ability to play in a back three, Sami in the moddle, Agger on the left and Carra on the right shows that Rafa wants to get people in who will allow him as many options as is possible.

I dont hink he has a set formation in mind, I think he wants the personall to play any !!

Understand where you're coming from but if you ask him his strongest team its not going to be a 3-5-2. I think he's looking at a 4-4-2 or a "4-2-3-1" as the long term plan "A" and looking for the right players to make it work aswell as looking for players who are adaptable to other systems.

I'm not sure what he wants to do with the midfield. I don't believe he trusts Steven Gerrard tactically in that position (central midfield) as we've seen him and Xabi Alonso partnered there probably less than 10 times in the time Rafa's been here and he's often played outwide and "infront" of the midfield.

Against Birmingham when he played there the other night again he didn't really impress.

by **66-1137139704** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:33 pm

Some of the formations we play are due to necessity.
We have no other options.
4-4-2 needs quality wingers ,wing backs and ball holding/distributing central mid fielders and we got that covered adequately(CM):
With riise/kewell on the left and [garcia/gerrard/cisse]/finnan on the right rafa has played the 4-4-2 on some occations.But the right is still a problem even with experimentation of these three players on that wing...thats why rafa wants to buy a decent RW.

4-3-2-1 Is what we most mostly play out of necessity.
Our back four is ok,3 strong midfielders and two attacking midfielders(garcia/kewell) and one striker.
Its a defensive formation to cover the defensive weaknesses of the attacking midfielders with only one striker in action.

so i agree with leon

by **stmichael** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:34 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:On the formation thing, I think that we need to get a natrually right sided player in, (I wont trivialise a decent thread by suggesting names from my last game of Championship manager), but when we do get one, I can still see Rafa employing Stevie, Luis and Djib (if still here) from time to time depending on what he wants from the role.

Yeah this is obvious. The recent games against Manure and Chelsea prove that against the real top sides, Gerrard needs to be in the centre of midfield. In both these games he was completely ineffective out wide.

As a 4-4-2 duo, I think that Alonso and Gerrard may struggle against the very best teams long term.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:44 pm

stmichael wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:On the formation thing, I think that we need to get a natrually right sided player in, (I wont trivialise a decent thread by suggesting names from my last game of Championship manager), but when we do get one, I can still see Rafa employing Stevie, Luis and Djib (if still here) from time to time depending on what he wants from the role.

Yeah this is obvious. The recent games against Manure and Chelsea prove that against the real top sides, Gerrard needs to be in the centre of midfield. In both these games he was completely ineffective out wide.

As a 4-4-2 duo, I think that Alonso and Gerrard may struggle against the very best teams long term.

Undoubtedly, Gerrard has the "awe factor" against lesser teams, in that they beleive his hype and how good he is and he makes them look stupid.

Stevie could play anywhere, (I include in goal there, as well as upfront and left back/wing) but against top class oppostion he heeds to be in his best position, in the engine room. There is nothing more impressive than Stevie, ball at his feet, rampaging through the middle before unleashing an exorcet or perfect pass to a striker.

In terms of playing together, as a two I cont see it, as Gerrard is better going forward, and Xabi is the better ball player, but neither are good enough (or willing/disciplined enough) to sit and hold. This position is probably the hardest to play, as well as being unsung in terms of contribution to the team.

Lampard would be nowhere without Makelele, neither would Essien, and Ronaldinho would not look as good if it where not for Xavi.

I do think that long term, Momo could be our answer in here, but it will mean either playing 451 or Stevie/Xabi missing out or Gerrard filling in a wide position.

by **stmichael** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:45 pm

stu_the_red wrote:I'm not sure what he wants to do with the midfield. I don't believe he trusts Steven Gerrard tactically in that position (central midfield) as we've seen him and Xabi Alonso partnered there probably less than 10 times in the time Rafa's been here and he's often played outwide and "infront" of the midfield.

Against Birmingham when he played there the other night again he didn't really impress.

I think you're probably right Stu.

Personally I don't think Alonso will ever be in the same class as Didi as a holding midfielder because it's not his game in the same way that Didi will never have the same range of passing. A holding midfielder's job is 90% destroying and 10% creativity - a remit Didi follows beautifully. Alonso is much more creative and that's where he looks most comfortable.

Not that he can't tackle, mind, but as a long term holding midfielder as part of a two I'm not sure he's the answer. He'd be far more effective in the Essien position of the Chelsea midfield formation.

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:49 pm

stmichael wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:I'm not sure what he wants to do with the midfield. I don't believe he trusts Steven Gerrard tactically in that position (central midfield) as we've seen him and Xabi Alonso partnered there probably less than 10 times in the time Rafa's been here and he's often played outwide and "infront" of the midfield.

Against Birmingham when he played there the other night again he didn't really impress.

I think you're probably right Stu.

Personally I don't think Alonso will ever be in the same class as Didi as a holding midfielder because it's not his game in the same way that Didi will never have the same range of passing. A holding midfielder's job is 90% destroying and 10% creativity - a remit Didi follows beautifully. Alonso is much more creative and that's where he looks most comfortable.

Not that he can't tackle, mind, but as a long term holding midfielder as part of a two I'm not sure he's the answer. He'd be far more effective in the Essien position of the Chelsea midfield formation.

For me Xabi is a holding midfielder. His alround game is oustanding. However i've said it a million times before, its not about one doing this and one doing that. Its about working as a team and both contributing both aspects of the game and i think the two of them together in the midfield could cause problems in that they'd play as individuals.

by **stmichael** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:22 pm

stu_the_red wrote:For me Xabi is a holding midfielder. His alround game is oustanding.

Stu, Alonso can definitely function as the holding midfielder. Gerrard can then be free to maraud more than he does currently. Infact this option could work because it would probably result in some swashbuckling performances and see us really leather some of the lesser teams. However I still think that Xabi's ability to dictate the game is restricted somewhat by being asked to perform the holding role.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:41 pm

I agree that Rafa doesn’t really trust Gerrard fully to play in the centre as part of a 2, his positioning is sometimes questionable and he chases out more than he should. I’m not sure if Alonso and Gerrard is a central paring that Rafa is fully relying on for the future, as strange as that sounds.

My suspicious is that Rafa long term plan is something like this:

xxx

xxx Gerrard xxx

Sissoko Alonso

At this moment we don’t have the left or right wingers, or the striker to play like this. If you don’t have the right type and quality of player you will basically turn that formation into an Everton style “block em out” system. Even Chelsea at times have looked impotent attacking wise because they don’t have the top notch centre forward and right winger that the system needs. With a 4-4-2 you can cover up a lot of deficiencies in your players.

I see 3-5-2 as an option that can be used to change a game that isn’t going our way, rather than a permanent answer. At the moment I think a 4-4-2 is the best way to go, and Alonso and Gerrard are fine as the pairing. But in the long term I can see Rafa going to the 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard playing off the striker. At home I can see Rafa bringing in Gacria to play off the striker and Gerrard coming in along side Alonso with Sissoko dropping to the bench.

A big thing is that Rafa, whether it be in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2, likes his 2 central midfield players to sit and control the play without having to burst forward all the time. This isn’t really getting the bet out of Gerrard’s exceptional ability to take on defences, that is why I can see him having a slightly more advanced role in the team.

At the moment Alonso and Hamann are probably our most effective central midfield partnership, especially in Europe. But in the league Sissokos stamina, aggression and pace are more useful alongside Alonso rather than Hamanns cool head and ability to the simple things supremely well.

Overall central midfield is a very strong area for use, were we have some excellent variety, combinations and individual ability.

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:47 pm

stmichael wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:For me Xabi is a holding midfielder. His alround game is oustanding.

Stu, Alonso can definitely function as the holding midfielder. Gerrard can then be free to maraud more than he does currently. Infact this option could work because it would probably result in some swashbuckling performances and see us really leather some of the lesser teams. However I still think that Xabi's ability to dictate the game is restricted somewhat by being asked to perform the holding role.

Alonso dictates the game from a deep position. In the same way Vieira does, Xavi does and Josep Guardiola did. Thats his best position, sitting infront of the defence, anchoring the midfield, holding his position, however you want to put it. His defensive ability in my opinion isn't far off what Hamann's was at all. He's a better alround player now than Hamann ever was.

However the reason i think it won't work is because of what you've said. Gerrard will do the attacking and Xabi will do the defending. Thats too one-demensional. Both need to do both. Gerrard is probably the best tackler at the club. He has the ability to go from box to box winning tackles and driving the team on. People talk about his creative quaities, for me, they're good but not what i'd describe as class. His ability to spot a clever pass isn't what Danny Murphy's was or Xabi's is, the execution of his passes isn't as good, however he has the drive, pace and power to force things upon opponents. He should use that power to basically do what Carragher does around Sami, sweep up and get involved everywhere else.

He is a box to box midfielder, he's not an attacking midfielder as some people like to claim. If you take away Gerrard's tackling, aggression and determination you lose half of the player just as you do if you fix him to a holding position. He doesn't have the intelligence to hold and dictate, nor does he have the the skill and technical ability to be the main creative player.

He does have the ability to force a game though through sheer persistance, drive and heart. Gerrard is VERY good at most things, the only attributes i'd say he's class at are shooting, tackling, aggression, determination, leadership, stamina and alround power and pace.

At the minute though, when he's out wide, we have balance, when he's not, we don't.

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:51 pm

Cool Hand Luke wrote:I agree that Rafa doesn’t really trust Gerrard fully to play in the centre as part of a 2, his positioning is sometimes questionable and he chases out more than he should. I’m not sure if Alonso and Gerrard is a central paring that Rafa is fully relying on for the future, as strange as that sounds.

My suspicious is that Rafa long term plan is something like this:

xxx

xxx Gerrard xxx

Sissoko Alonso

At this moment we don’t have the left or right wingers, or the striker to play like this. If you don’t have the right type and quality of player you will basically turn that formation into an Everton style “block em out” system. Even Chelsea at times have looked impotent attacking wise because they don’t have the top notch centre forward and right winger that the system needs. With a 4-4-2 you can cover up a lot of deficiencies in your players.

I see 3-5-2 as an option that can be used to change a game that isn’t going our way, rather than a permanent answer. At the moment I think a 4-4-2 is the best way to go, and Alonso and Gerrard are fine as the pairing. But in the long term I can see Rafa going to the 4-2-3-1 with Gerrard playing off the striker. At home I can see Rafa bringing in Gacria to play off the striker and Gerrard coming in along side Alonso with Sissoko dropping to the bench.

A big thing is that Rafa, whether it be in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2, likes his 2 central midfield players to sit and control the play without having to burst forward all the time. This isn’t really getting the bet out of Gerrard’s exceptional ability to take on defences, that is why I can see him having a slightly more advanced role in the team.

At the moment Alonso and Hamann are probably our most effective central midfield partnership, especially in Europe. But in the league Sissokos stamina, aggression and pace are more useful alongside Alonso rather than Hamanns cool head and ability to the simple things supremely well.

Overall central midfield is a very strong area for use, were we have some excellent variety, combinations and individual ability.

Firstly i don't personally think that is Gerrard's best position at all. I'd rather see him as a full back than played there.

Also I disagree when you say we don't have the wingers to play like that either. Kewell is more than good enough and is proving it. He's been excellent this season and the improvement is continuing.

We need a quality winger. Pennant, Joaquin... beyond that i'm struggling to think of any.

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Just about the balance in midfield

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