Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:40 pm

I was thinking about a comment by Brad Friedel and it set me thinking about how many keepers we've used under Houllier. I think he's used five keepers in five years - James, Friedel, Westerveld, Dudek and Kirkland. Along this line of thinking, is it conceivable that we're not winning trophies because we keep changing things around?

From memory (though I can't be too sure who played under Houllier in the early days of his regime)

GK - James, Friedel, Westerveld, Dudek and Kirkland
LB - Staunton, Bjornebye, Matteo, Ziege, Carragher, Riise, Vignal, Traore
CB - Matteo, Hyypia, Henchoz, Traore, Biscan
RB - Heggem, McAteer, Carragher, Babbel, Wright, Otsemobor, Finnan
CM - Hamann, Gerrard, Murphy, McAllister, Diao, Biscan, Le Tallec
LM - Berger, Riise, Cheyrou, Diomede, Kewell
RM - Diouf, Murphy, Thompson, Smicer, Partridge
CF - Fowler, Owen, Litmanen, Diouf, Baros, Heskey, Camara, Meijer, Anelka, Mellor, Pongolle, Riedle

8 left-backs and 12 forwards under Houllier !

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:01 pm

Thats a fair comment howzat, but i think you are bastardising the figures by letting some players (eg carragher matteo and murphy) appear under the two positions.

You never change a winning team is the old saying, but not too often under GH have we been a winning team, so maybe its fair to swap it around a bit.

Its not the changing of players, or indeed the ruthless axing that bothers me. Its the incositistency in applying the logic to all players.

Westerveld makes a few mistakes, out on his ear. Ince upsets the apple cart, gone. Henchoz for no apparent reason sent to Coventry.

On the other hand, Smicer constantly cr#p, Biscan an utter disgrace to the phrase centre half and Diouf a disgrace to the badge, and these players are persisted with time and time again.

Why can GH not rule everything with his head, and not stubbornly select players who are not good enough just because he was the guy who bought them. Its as though he ignores the mistakes and poor performances, but persists and plays them until they have a decent game he can talk up?

by **jonnymac1979** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:10 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Henchoz for no apparent reason sent to Coventry

What?

Say it isn't so!!!!

by **Woollyback** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:25 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Its not the changing of players, or indeed the ruthless axing that bothers me. Its the incositistency in applying the logic to all players.

Westerveld makes a few mistakes, out on his ear. Ince upsets the apple cart, gone. Henchoz for no apparent reason sent to Coventry.

On the other hand, Smicer constantly cr#p, Biscan an utter disgrace to the phrase centre half and Diouf a disgrace to the badge, and these players are persisted with time and time again.

Leon, good point - it's baffled me for a while how GH can't allow any slip-up at all from the keeper yet he's perfectly happy to see other members of the team blunder along from one game to the next

Westerfeld was frozen out after the mistake against Bolton (albeit a big mistake) even though prior to that his form had been getting better and better. GH suddenly treated him like dirt. I wonder what would happen if he ostracised Owen every time he missed a penalty or Biscan every time he gave away a daft free kick/penalty

Houllier seems to find it very easy to suddenly take a personal dislike to a player and banish him from the team, even if it means ousting an important/in form player

by **Owzat** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:18 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Thats a fair comment howzat, but i think you are bastardising the figures by letting some players (eg carragher matteo and murphy) appear under the two positions.

But that is part of the problem. While they may only be one player, it is still playing them in a different role. If Carragher switches from left-back to right-back, it takes adjusment on his part and he needs replacing at left-back causing even more disruption to the team. The issue is less about how many players in total have been used, but about the influence of constantly changing the player in any given position. To have had 12+ players up front is hardly settled, same goes for left-back. The only positions that were relatively settled were centre-backs until Houllier decided Biscan was the answer to something

by **woof woof !** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:27 pm

Owzat wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Thats a fair comment howzat, but i think you are bastardising the figures by letting some players (eg carragher matteo and murphy) appear under the two positions.

But that is part of the problem. While they may only be one player, it is still playing them in a different role. If Carragher switches from left-back to right-back, it takes adjusment on his part and he needs replacing at left-back causing even more disruption to the team. The issue is less who he has bought, but about the influence of constantly changing the player in any given position.

Owzat is right. no wonder I've been having nightmares (see topic ) . I think if Foolier owned the winner of the national he would use it to pull a cart.Christ even at schoolboy level it was hard to play outside of your best posistion . Sure you got on with it but it was NEVER you best performance.It's no wonder some of our players don't always look as good as their price tags.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:28 pm

For once you've raised a very interesting and valid point.

I think what you have to look at though is which ones are Houlliers for a start and which ones are regulars. I don't believe the likes of Partridge, Mellor, Otsemobor, Meijer etc are good grounds for your arguement but i do think its a good point.

For the left back position he signed Ziege and it didn't work out so he let him go. There are good reasons behind some of them i think and not so good behind others.

Its something i think i could go into detail on but i can't be arsed at this present moment in time. Maybe later on tonight after i been the pub.

lol

by **Owzat** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:32 pm

stu_the_red wrote:For once you've raised a very interesting and valid point.

I raise a great many, you just don't agree with them. But then again you don't agree with many people.......

I'd be interested to know how many different players Houllier has used (not signed) during his time in solo charge. If it is less than 50 I'd be surprised, could be a fair few more. That is looking like FIVE entire teams worth of players in five years, no wonder we're going nowhere

by **woof woof !** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:33 pm

stu_the_red wrote:For once you've raised a very interesting and valid point.

I think what you have to look at though is which ones are Houlliers. For the left back he signed Ziege and it didn't work out so he let him go. There are good reasons behind some of them i think and not so good behind others.

Too deep for me

Explain ...........less than thirty words please Stu,

by **woof woof !** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:42 pm

Owzat wrote:I'd be interested to know how many different players Houllier has used (not signed) during his time in solo charge. If it is less than 50 I'd be surprised, could be a fair few more. That is looking like FIVE entire teams worth of players in five years, no wonder we're going nowhere

Arrgghhhh NOooooo another Nightmare . I haven't sat down and counted just how many players Foolier has used during his time with us. Now I'm beginning to hate him even more :angry:

If that's possible :angry:

by **JBG** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

He also used Pegguy Aphrexhad and Luzi Bernardi as goalkeepers, not to forget Paul Jones either! That makes about 8 keepers to my knowledge!

Did Warner ever play in goal for Houllier? I don't think he did.

Layton Maxwell also made a league cup appearance against Hull under Houllier in 1999.

That Navarro chap may have made a subs appearance.

Houllier has gone through a lot of players, but of his first choice team in 1999/2000, Hyppia, Hamman, Owen, Gerrard, Carragher are still first team regulars, Murphy and Henchoz there or thereabouts, Smicer is still around and Heskey, who arrived in the second half of the 1999/2000 season is still going, er, strong!

For all of the chopping and changing there are probably 7 or 8 core players still around from Houllier's first season.

by **DrLiverpool** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:47 am

First of all Westerweld was a class keeper (much better than Dudek) pity the pr**k in charge didnt give him a 2nd chance.
Someone there said something about why doesnt he critisise Owen when he missess a penalty. The answer is simple is he cant his afraid that he'd fall out with owen and that he wont sign a new contract and then houllier would be blamed for owen leaving. His to blame if Owen leaves anyway cos his turned us into such a sh*t side.

*Changing players cant be good for the team unless the players coming in are good but since all thats been coming in is french cr*p the team is unsettled*

He has never bought a good right back. Finnan was better at Fulham just like Kewell was better at Leeds.

The best player houllier has bought is Hamann.
Hamann = class
If every player was as good as Haman we'd be first not trying to finish 4th.

by **Owzat** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 1:26 pm

John Barnes' Granny wrote:Houllier has gone through a lot of players, but of his first choice team in 1999/2000, Hyppia, Hamman, Owen, Gerrard, Carragher are still first team regulars, Murphy and Henchoz there or thereabouts, Smicer is still around and Heskey, who arrived in the second half of the 1999/2000 season is still going, er, strong!

For all of the chopping and changing there are probably 7 or 8 core players still around from Houllier's first season.

That is when Houllier picks what most of us accept as the best players. Part of the problem is that Houllier insists on chopping and changing so that we don't have those "core" players in the side. The defence is perhaps the worst affected, and injuries haven't helped, but Houllier just makes matters worse not better

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:48 pm

DrLiverpool i've read two of your posts and so far both have been sh##e.

One stated O'Neil signed Larrson and this one stating Westerveld is better than Dudek.

Also... "he's never signed a good right back" ?? *coughs* Babbel, Finnan and he already has Carragher. Name a better full back than Babbel? Now name one who was available better than Finnan... Yeah thought so.

You are talking bubbles mate.

by **DrLiverpool** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 7:14 pm

Listen you little piece of sh*t
Finnan is not that good and babbel wont play for us ever again (unless thres a new manager) houllier himself said it.
Finnan was much,much better at Fulham.
We could have bought Carr.

Go suck a nozzle

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