Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:21 pm

This is kind of a controversial subject, but I think I'll raise this issue anyways... just to see the reaction.

I had a conversation with another Liverpool supporter yesterday about our new manager and that talk left me with somewhat of a bitter taste in the mouth. It also left me wondering if we as LFC supporters (.. or some of us ) do show a lot of double standards....

For example, many of us hate chelsea because they've got all that buying power and because they're practically able to buy who ever they want (well except Stevie that is), but at least if they could buy him they would be able to. We hate manure for all their marketing and all the publicity they get and that goes for UnReal Madrid as well, but still we all look forward to the investment which are expected to come into our club and take us up there besides these two clubs financially. We hate chelsea for signing top class player after top class player, but still we all want players like that playing for our club.... Anyone see the double standards?

When GH was still managing our club, everyone was saying 'stop buying 18-20 year old talents for fcuks sake and start buying some established players - proven players'.... Our new manager has just signed Mauricio Pellegrino who's everything we wanted at that point. Pellegrino is an established/proven player who's practically tried everything in the world of football and now people are complaining because he's too old... Anyone see the double standards?

Recently I've heard some complaining because Rafa is fielding almost the entire youth team for tonights FA Cup game against Burnley. Even read this comment somewhere 'It's a sad day when Liverpool push back the importance of the FA Cup' - what's that all about now...? Again looking back to the GH era, where everyone was complaining about the young lads and how they never got a chance.... Anyone see the double standards?

Are we slowly becoming a bunch of fans which can't be satisfied by anything? Or are we just getting confused and caught up in all our own double standards?

To wrap this up, I'd like to say that I think we need the investment - not because I like the thought, but because if we don't we'll be miles behind the likes of chelsea and manu in 5-10 years time. I also want to say that Rafa has my 100% backing in all issues of the game, including the Pellegrino deal and using the youngsters in the FA Cup - he has my 100% backing.

Just a thought like. I'd like to hear your comments about this?

by **SALTROCK67** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:28 pm

Great post mate,when you look at it that way i have to agree totally,may be down to frustration that seems to be around on the forum at the mo. :kungfu:

by **Sean** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:31 pm

Good points all round. The last fifteen years have been very frustrating for us. I remember back in 1993 lauging at Man U fans that had gone 26 years without a league title.

The bottom line is that we need big investment and if Abramovich's twin brother turned up at Anfield ready to splash out money on the big names, I reckon alot of fans would change their tune very quickly.

by **SALTROCK67** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:37 pm

Yes i think they would,but what brings it home now is when they mention theBIG 3 and Lfc are no longer there Chelski have taken over are position and it hurts. :down:

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:39 pm

As per usual Mikey baby, an excellent well presented and thought provoking post.

Double standards, the age old conundrum. I do think that some football fans will seem to be of the double standards ilke, as they do not have the level of knowledge to back up their often big mouths. People on football forums often tend to shout their mouth off, before engaging their brains.

Now this is not a personal attack on anyone, just an observation that many members on here do post both sides of an argument in the space of a week !

On the point, I think that the thing with football fans is that because you have been hurt in the past, you tend to ere on the side of caution in every case. Not that you have double standards, more that you just become very wary of any potential white elephants.

For example if a player is signed from Africa, people will think "Oh no, African players never make it in England", however when one does, they will think "Why did we not sign him when he was available?".

If a player becomes available who is extremly young, and we sign him relativley cheaply, then loan him out, people will say "What is the point of buying unproven players and letting them play for other teams?", but then when Arsene Wenger calls one of his young players who have been out on loan and they play well, then the same people will be like "Get him back and playing for us" about our player. Then if he does not make the step up, it will be like "what a waste of time and money that young lad, we could have got a proven player".

On the investment front, I think you will find the vast majority of fans would have been very pround indeed five/six or so years ago of the fact that LFC was not a PLC, and not owned by a megarich business man as their toy. However the thing is, fifteen years later, we have missed out on the TV money gravy train thru not winning the league, and the Russian has blew the whole thing wide open.

Right now, we are in such a danger of becoming an average mid table side that all tradition and sentiment must go out the window. We must catch up with them at all costs, or run the risk of being left behind forever.

by **SouthernScouser** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:54 pm

We definitely need to do whatever we can to stay in touch with the top 3

At present - it seems to me that there are almost 4 mini leagues within the EPL -
1) top 3 teams (possibly 4 because of Champions League status)
2)4 - 9th place all fighting for that last Champions League spot
3) average mid table to lower (but will definitely stay up)
4) the relegation battle

Honestly - where do we sit at the moment - we are in the no 2 bracket
Sometimes 4th in the league (over last few seasons)
Sometimes bordering on the mid table comfort/average zone
Indeed we are being left behing by the top 3 - and much as I hate to admit it - money seems to play a big part
Arsenal are starting to see the benefits of being successful, although Wenger didn't really spend anything like what Chelski, Scum U or even Houllier did - we can only hope at the moment - that Rafa can perform those sorts of miracles to keep us in contention
We must stay with them - or as someone else said - you can forget the new stadium being a success - cause they won't be able to fill it
In conclusion I honestly believe we have the right man for the job to lead us back to were we belong.
(Or perhaps I have those Rose Tinted, Double Standard Glasses on again)

by **Redrider** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:59 pm

With a fan base as large as Liverpools, you will find a view from every perspective under the sun, so don't be surprised if you pick up what appear to be double standards.
Equally, it is healthy to air a view and quite often I find that in discussing a point on sites such as this that a view can change as discussion develops.
The veiw of most fan's is also superficial and heavily influenced by the media.
Anyway, you know my views on Investment and where we are today, but I am willing to listen to other's point of view !!

by **Paul C** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:09 pm

Unfortunately their will always be fans that think like this at any club!

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:15 pm

To be honest, I think the whole of england is one big bunch of whining little bitches who need a good solid dose of reality, and that football fans just use football as their platform.

I've no problem with Chelsea, they've just got more money than anyone else. I'd like to know who the last team were to win the league without buying a player were - I know that since I've been watching Liverpool we've always bought the league. It's just petty jealousy for Liverpool fans (and I've even heard Man U fans do it which makes the mind boggle) to say "well Chelsea are just going to have bought the league aren't they?" as though we're any different.

For the FA Cup thing with the kids, I guess we're worried we're running the risk of throwing away a good chance to win something this year, as none of us expect to win the league, and only the relentlessly optimistic think the Champions League is a realistic possibility. Personally, I'm happy at the minute with whatever Rafa tries, because I'm sure he's got good reasons. If I was in charge, I'd mix 2 or 3 young players with 8 or 9 experienced ones.

For old man Pellegrino, I think he's a good FREE (lest we forget) acquisition. Traore seems more settled as a full-back, so apart from Whitbread, we've no tailor made cover for Sami and Jamie (assuming Henchoz is deffo on his way out). The MTV generation might have been expecting Aimar and think anything less is a disgrace, but most people will understand the signing for what it is.

by **addicted norwegian** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:27 pm

Good post, and I see that you`ve got a point.

But still, I think that the "hatred" we feel for other clubs is both healthy and normal, when considering the ambitions and history of our great club. I think that the hatred isn`t consistant (exept when it comes to manure, I`m gonna hate them for as long as I live :angry:

) but turning due to which team competing with us for titles and silverware. I can only speak for myself, but I didn`t hate Chelsea ten years ago. But I hate them today, not because of their money, but because of their success. If we loose this "hatred" I fear that the ambitions goes down the drain with it.

by **Rimetto** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:40 pm

I agree there are fans that jump on the media band wagon and don't have a view of their own. If the paper or pundits think a player is terrible then it must be true

I think rafa's decision to play the kids tonight is brave but necessary. Brave because if it goes wrong he will be heavily criticised for it but necessary because the last thing we need at the moment is more injuries to our remaining regulars first team players.

Going away to Burnley is going to be no easy game they are not going to be standing off and letting us play and the pitch as only today been passed playable. Receipe for injuries.

For a long time i have complete faith in the manager to make sensible decision regarding the team selection and subs.

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:13 pm

addicted norwegian wrote:I think that the "hatred" we feel for other clubs is both healthy and normal

Yeah, let's just admit it. We hate everyone and they should all get relegated.

by **andy_g** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:06 pm

the point is - who is accpeting we're a second rate club? no fan is going to belive that and the board and management and players are certainly not going to believe that. its a fear many people have because we keep hearing that everpresent phrase 'the top 3' and we're not in it. before abromovich bought chelsea and mourinho came in it was 'the top 2' that was talked about - manure and arsenal, but maybe at that time we were a possible 3rd place club along with some others.

people seem to fear we're becoming a second rate club because we're not buying big big name players just now and don't seem to have loads of cash to spend. chelski have distorted reality a bit recently and we need to put that into context. its more realistic to compare ourselves with manure and arsenal. so look at who they've been buying these days. apart from big names like rooney, manure have bought people like kleberson, djemba djemba, bellion... arsenal have bought people like fabrigas, almunia and so on. they've both bought bigger players but so have we - cisse and alonso. in arsenals case this has worked better as wenger seems to be a shrewder judge of a relatively unknown young player.

not buying big names doesn't mean you're accepting second best - it could mean that you're manager and scouting staff are shrewd and clever operators. i think a lot of this has been distorted by pellegrino coming in first - people are thinking 'sh!t, the transfer window's open and we've brought in an old geezer part timer on a free. if we'd got anelka and/or morientes already and then pellegrino came i think the reaction would be different.

i ran out of things to say! wish i could put it all more eleoquently, but there you go...

by **mistyred** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:17 pm

Personally my hatred for Chelsea goes back along way,Anybody remember the chelsea smilers?.

Well if you do that's where my hatred for them has come from and just got worst over the years and i for one think it's a sad day when a team who has only won one championship is a so called "Big Team" cos let's face it most of the BIG world class players brought by chelsea are not world beaters atall just cost over the odds end of.

by **The Canadian Red Army** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:29 pm

stmichael wrote:To be honest, I think the whole of england is one big bunch of whining little bitches who need a good solid dose of reality, and that football fans just use football as their platform.

I've no problem with Chelsea, they've just got more money than anyone else. I'd like to know who the last team were to win the league without buying a player were - I know that since I've been watching Liverpool we've always bought the league. It's just petty jealousy for Liverpool fans (and I've even heard Man U fans do it which makes the mind boggle) to say "well Chelsea are just going to have bought the league aren't they?" as though we're any different.

For the FA Cup thing with the kids, I guess we're worried we're running the risk of throwing away a good chance to win something this year, as none of us expect to win the league, and only the relentlessly optimistic think the Champions League is a realistic possibility. Personally, I'm happy at the minute with whatever Rafa tries, because I'm sure he's got good reasons. If I was in charge, I'd mix 2 or 3 young players with 8 or 9 experienced ones.

For old man Pellegrino, I think he's a good FREE (lest we forget) acquisition. Traore seems more settled as a full-back, so apart from Whitbread, we've no tailor made cover for Sami and Jamie (assuming Henchoz is deffo on his way out). The MTV generation might have been expecting Aimar and think anything less is a disgrace, but most people will understand the signing for what it is.

i would like to make a comparison to the NBA, Last year the detroit pistons won the NBA finals over the LA LAKERS. They are top 3 riches teams in the league, and detriot is only mid table finance wise. The thing that made the difference was team work and heart. Detroit didnt have the best players or the most expensive, like a team full of superstars like the Lakers. What the team did was worked on teamwork, and the love of the game. The heart allowed them to work as a team, because they were all focused on the same goal. This is how they won the title. They didnt spend over 200 million over 2 years to win the title. They had average to good players that worked as one unit. I believe that we can do this aswell, that we dont need Chelseas money to become top 3 in the EPL. We need is our core players working as one, and focused on a common goal.

Liverpool FC Forum

What do some fans want? - Double standards

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