Liverpool FC Forum

by **devaney** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:03 am

mart wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Was Carroll worth 35 mil ? No he wasn't it was a price the club had to pay - if you expected a player worth every penny of that 35 mil then that's your problem - some are realistic enough to understand that price tag and players worth are very disjointed. I'll judge by what I think the player is worth as opposed to an over inflated price tag that we had to pay

The club decided he was worth paying 35 mill for so i guess they expected a lot from him. If not they would have bought someone else for a lot less. Its a business, not a charity. The value of the player directly reflects what the club expects of the player, and they dont feel like paying more than that. If they can get a player cheaply thats great but they wont pay more than they think the player is worth.

Just look at this list:

Top 10 Overall Transfers

1. Cristiano Ronaldo: Manchester United to Real Madrid – £80m (2009)
2. Zlatan Ibrahimovic: Inter Milan to Barcelona – £60.7m (2009)
3. Kaka: AC Milan to Real Madrid – £56m (2009)
4. Fernando Torres: Liverpool to Chelsea – £50m (2011)
5. Zinedine Zidane: Juventus to Real Madrid – £45.62m (2001)
6. Luis Figo: Barcelona to Real Madrid – £37m (2000)
7. Javier Pastore: Palermo to Paris Saint-Germain – £36.7m (2011)
8. Hernan Crespo: Parma to Lazio – £35.5m (2000)
9. Radamel Falcao: FC Porto to Atletico Madrid – £35.2m (2011)
t10. Sergio Aguero: Atletico Madrid to Manchester City – £35m (2011)
t10. Andy Carroll: Newcastle United to Liverpool – £35m (2011)

Just how many people would have put Carroll in at number ten before we agreed that crazy price!

I suppose if you live in a world where you judge a player based on your own valuations then you can justify Carroll's performances. Ok I'll value him at £5m! I feel much better now! Who knows I might make a profit when I sell him in the summer for £7.5m. I'm sorry to be sarcastic Benny but you are over simplifying what is rapidly becoming a very serious problem. The lad is just not up to the job however you try to spin it. It has been clear for everybody to see from his early Liverpool appearances and he hasn't improved.Just how much did the injury affect him? He can't tackle.He can't turn. His first touch is poor.Kenny and Damien aren't idiots so just what has happened.They would never have bought Carroll at the ludicrous price of £35m if his shortcomings that he has displayed for Liverpool had been so apparent at Newcastle.

I admire fans who have the patience to keep supporting and encouraging Andy. My stance has not changed since the first two games I saw him play for Liverpool.

by **devaney** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:39 am

Benny The Noon wrote:
Dundalk wrote:Benny do you not agree he has been very poor this season. If I had have told you when we signed him that he would go the first 22 games in the league without scoring or even an assist then you would have told me I was off my head.

What odds would you have even got on that?

He is not adventurous enough and will always play the safe pass rather then try and beat a man. Not good enough for the level we want to be at.

I agree he hasnt performed as well as we saw last season with Villa but i also believe he has suffered from missed chances - chances he has created that other players have missed , and because of that he suffered a knock in confidence.

Just saying no assists and no goals doesnt show the whole picture

Kuyt one season scored 10 and had 10 assists - does that make him suddenly top quality ?

Im hoping for more from the lad during the rest of the season to help us achieve more and progress more

As opposed to just calling him a failure after 6 months.

Just doesn't play quality balls often enough and that is the very simple reason his stats are poor. Every midfield player expects only a percentage of his passes/shots to result in goals or assists. To improve Downing's stats an adnormally high percentage of his passes/shots would have had to have been successful.You are not being realistic.He undoubtably has talent but he is just very inconsistent.Just watch how often he plays the safe short sideways or backwards pass.Downing has got to be more adventurous.

by **ethanr** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:46 am

I feel Downing has had a few games where he looked extremely good. You see him taking on the fullbacks all the time, and beating them... I don't know what's with this talk about him not beating fullbacks, he does it better than anybody at the club except Suarez. He should have had probably 4 or 5 assists by now from very clear cut chances he's created, and has hit the post 3 times(?). There's been games where he's looked great.

However, he has been extremely poor lately. I don't know if it's a confidence thing or what, but he he hasn't been getting the good balls into the box like he had before. If he doesn't pick it up he'll find himself spending way more time on the bench.

I do think way too many of you have been way too critical on him tho.

by **PabloMedina28** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:01 pm

As much as i think Downing needs to grow a pair, i do feel sorry for him everytime someone misses a chance hes put on a plate for him. I reckon if we werent so toothless infront of goal hed have about 10 assists by now and no one would really be complaining.

by **Benny The Noon** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:39 pm

PabloMedina28 wrote:As much as i think Downing needs to grow a pair, i do feel sorry for him everytime someone misses a chance hes put on a plate for him. I reckon if we werent so toothless infront of goal hed have about 10 assists by now and no one would really be complaining.

Bingo - at last someone realises the bigger picture and isnt just looking at "stats"

by **aCe'** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:05 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:
PabloMedina28 wrote:As much as i think Downing needs to grow a pair, i do feel sorry for him everytime someone misses a chance hes put on a plate for him. I reckon if we werent so toothless infront of goal hed have about 10 assists by now and no one would really be complaining.

Bingo - at last someone realises the bigger picture and isnt just looking at "stats"

fck stats, hes been largely useless. His delivery has been sub-par, he's barely a goal threat, and while I do sympathize with him given the fact that he's been mostly deployed down the right flank you'd still EXPECT more for him given his reputation, ability AND the price we paid for him.

Its all good and dandy defending our players and suggesting that its a way of supporting them but ffs lets not pretend for a minute that the results (and more recently the performances) are anything short of unacceptable.

by **Benny The Noon** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:24 pm

aCe' wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:
PabloMedina28 wrote:As much as i think Downing needs to grow a pair, i do feel sorry for him everytime someone misses a chance hes put on a plate for him. I reckon if we werent so toothless infront of goal hed have about 10 assists by now and no one would really be complaining.

Bingo - at last someone realises the bigger picture and isnt just looking at "stats"

fck stats, hes been largely useless. His delivery has been sub-par, he's barely a goal threat, and while I do sympathize with him given the fact that he's been mostly deployed down the right flank you'd still EXPECT more for him given his reputation, ability AND the price we paid for him.

Its all good and dandy defending our players and suggesting that its a way of supporting them but ffs lets not pretend for a minute that the results (and more recently the performances) are anything short of unacceptable.

No they aren't acceptable your right Ace , but it's very lazy just to quote No assists No goals = failure ( not suggesting you have ) .

As for chances he has provided , some have been not good enough but some have been put on a plate for players yet missed . But it all comes down to collective responsibilty of blame as opposed to finger pointing .

The strikers are missing chances created and some of the chances created aren't good enough - they all need to step up a level.

by **Kerry07** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:27 am

He was excellent tonight. His issue is clearly a matter of belief (people at Villa said this). He needs to realise he has the ability to be a quality player.

by **Zidane** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:29 am

Yeah, we've seen it on and off this season that he obviously has the quality to be very good for us but it just hasn't clicked for him that often this season.

by **ethanr** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:06 am

I think a lot of it has to do with game plan.. We look at the opposition and figure out if Downing is capable of basically running straight pass their fullbacks. If he is, he'll do it a lot throughout the game. If we don't think he is then he won't do it much at all. It seems when he's not able to take on their fullbacks very well he doesn't have the best game.

by **devaney** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:53 am

Benny The Noon wrote:
aCe' wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:
PabloMedina28 wrote:As much as i think Downing needs to grow a pair, i do feel sorry for him everytime someone misses a chance hes put on a plate for him. I reckon if we werent so toothless infront of goal hed have about 10 assists by now and no one would really be complaining.

Bingo - at last someone realises the bigger picture and isnt just looking at "stats"

fck stats, hes been largely useless. His delivery has been sub-par, he's barely a goal threat, and while I do sympathize with him given the fact that he's been mostly deployed down the right flank you'd still EXPECT more for him given his reputation, ability AND the price we paid for him.

Its all good and dandy defending our players and suggesting that its a way of supporting them but ffs lets not pretend for a minute that the results (and more recently the performances) are anything short of unacceptable.

No they aren't acceptable your right Ace , but it's very lazy just to quote No assists No goals = failure ( not suggesting you have ) .

As for chances he has provided , some have been not good enough but some have been put on a plate for players yet missed . But it all comes down to collective responsibilty of blame as opposed to finger pointing .

The strikers are missing chances created and some of the chances created aren't good enough - they all need to step up a level.

Benny. I will try and say this again because it really isn't rocket science. Downings stats are poor simply because he doesn't provide quality shots on goal or quality balls into the box often enough.Every midfielder in the country could say I'd have more assists using your system to defend his inconsistencies.

He was ok last night but if we had lost then his performance would have been analysed very differently.

You see different things in Carroll and Downing to most of us.I admire your loyalty but both players have been a serious disappointment since they arrived. You'll probably put up a case for Carroll and say it is not all about scoring goals. Well guess what - it is !!

by **woof woof !** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:09 pm

Thought he had a good game last night, if he played like that every week he'd get a lot more support from fans (like me) who don't rate him. I still thing he lacks that "xtra something" that would make him more than just average/occasionally good. He got in a load of crosses but none of them really damaging and although Hart is a top keeper a smarter player would have done better with the far post chance Downing had.

If anything, last nights performance has convinced me that if Kenny is going to pick Downing he's deffo got to play him in his favoured down the left position.

by **tubby** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:17 pm

Was unlucky not to score last night. Let's hope he takes that form into the weekend against Utd and then who knows, maybe some consistensy isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

by **stmichael** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:14 pm

I thought yesterday was his best game for us. he seemed to playing with less fear and more drive.

Just hope he kicks on from this now, starting at the weekend. The likelihood is he'll be up against somebody playing out of position at right back. Smalling or even Valencia might be playing there and Downing can get some joy.

by **JC_81** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:29 pm

stmichael wrote:I thought yesterday was his best game for us. he seemed to playing with less fear and more drive.

Just hope he kicks on from this now, starting at the weekend. The likelihood is he'll be up against somebody playing out of position at right back. Smalling or even Valencia might be playing there and Downing can get some joy.

Agreed. He had one of his best games for sure.

He tends to play better against the bigger teams though, when they try and attack us and he can use his pace on the counter and run in behind them.

His problem is playing against teams we are expected to beat, especially at Anfield, where there is little opportunity to run in behind. He doesn't have any tricks really, but has a decent touch and can run.

He is a useful player to have, but not all games suit him and I'm still not convinced he's worth a regular start.

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