Transfer Expenditure - IS THIS THE PROBLEM?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby devaney » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:39 pm

I have been the first to congratulate both Klopp and the owners for their achievements. Let’s face it with just a bit more luck we would have have two league and CL titles during their tenure. The quality of the football until recently has been of the highest quality. Only the most unforgiving of supporters would argue that injuries haven’t been the key reason for are recent demise.

It would be very simple to suggest that we have been the victims of our own downfall by being far to prudent in the transfer market. Over the last 10 years City and United have spent £1020m and £944m respectively. Liverpool have spent £339m which is just £10m more than Everton. Liverpool’s success during the last 10 years compared to Everton has been phenomenal and the same can be said of City compared to United. Money matters but clearly it is not the only factor. During the last 5 years which is Liverpool’s most successful period during the last 10 years they  have spent a measly (in football terms) £111m and this for me this is the real problem. City have spent £563m and United have spent £498m during the same period and that is at a time when United have been suffering. Even Everton have spent £256m and brought in a world class manager.

We have made some truly fantastic signings but unfortunately this season the best of them have spent prolonged periods out due to injury. Our defence has suffered to a ridiculous extent. After Henderson being injured against Everton we now go into our next game with the 18th different central defence pairing of the season. That is crazy and any team would suffer as a result. For me the biggest problem is Fabinho and Henderson being moved into defence. Our midfield has looked thoroughly lacklustre as a result and an off form front three hasn’t helped.

Whilst injuries have caused serious problems  it is also true to say that our extreme lack of spending has to be questioned. The following example of frugalness is the very worst for me. Just Google Liverpool’s interest in Fernandez for maximum frustration. Several teams had him on their radar with Liverpool as front runners for a long time. Whilst hindsight is an exact science it didn’t take Einstein mentality to appreciate what a talent the lad was. And what did we do we allowed United to buy him for £47m (potentially rising to £67m) at a time when they couldn’t even offer him CL football and were playing possibly their worst football in years !!

So fo me it is a combination of VAR, downright bad luck, injuries and some poor decisions in the transfer market. I just worry that we have done too little for too long with regards to future team planning. Strength in depth for a very long time until a couple of years ago was a massive problem and we seem to be regressing in that direction. The majority of our very best players are close to 30 and simply won’t last for ever and this perhaps applies to our front three the most. So by not rebuilding gradually during a period of tremendous success we will almost definitely suffer.I fully accept that the owners are running a sustainable business. Covid has also created unrivalled financial difficulties. Have we missed a trick or do we just put it down to bad luck? Time will tell........
Last edited by devaney on Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Net Spend Over The Last 5 Years (10 years
are in brackets)
LFC £111m (£339m)
Everton £255m (£329m)
Arsenal £307m (£471m)
Spurs £204m (£167m)
Chelsea £264m (£498m)
Man City £563m (£1020m)
Man United £498m (£944m)
devaney
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 4546
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:12 am
Location: Liverpool

Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:57 pm

Very good post which sums it all up pretty well.
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 11202
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:54 pm
Location: Liverpool

Postby Thommo's perm » Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:57 pm

The very minute (if not before) when the players were watching chelsea beat city to hand us the first league title in 30 years, Klopp and the owners should have sat down to plan the future of the club for at least the next ten years. The catchphrase should have been changed from "this means more" to "this does not leave Anfield" and the plan should have included emulating city's method of virtually winning the PL every year. They should have had a list of players they would buy to come in and strengthen and bolster the squad. They should have looked at citys squad and tried to copy, as best they could, the way they have two, sometimes three replacements for each player.
I know they dont have the money that citys owner has, and I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but we have taken a gamble by not making sure we had strength and depth and we are paying a mighty price for it now. We are fu'cked and things are possibly, if not probably going to get worse...
:no
User avatar
Thommo's perm
 
Posts: 6383
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:57 am
Location: liverpool

Postby devaney » Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:51 pm

Since we won the CL in 2019 we have bought a collection of very average players apart from Jota and possibly Thiago. I say possibly because so far he is simply highlighting why Bayern didn’t play him. Jota was bought at the expense of Hoever and given that we had sold Loren that is now looking like a costly decision.
Net Spend Over The Last 5 Years (10 years
are in brackets)
LFC £111m (£339m)
Everton £255m (£329m)
Arsenal £307m (£471m)
Spurs £204m (£167m)
Chelsea £264m (£498m)
Man City £563m (£1020m)
Man United £498m (£944m)
devaney
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 4546
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:12 am
Location: Liverpool

Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:36 am

Thiago is doing his job, we are dominating the ball and the MF in practically every game we play, it’s the front 3 who’s form has gone off a cliff (Sadio and Bobby in particular).
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 11202
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:54 pm
Location: Liverpool

Postby red till i die!! » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:40 am

Our main transfer aim is to spend as little as possible so it was only a matter of time before we hit issues. The players we go for are usually off the radar of the other big clubs and it doesn't seem to matter the level they came from either. You can get lucky with a player from a bottom side but its impossible to build a team around it.

Klopp has received the backing of a mid table side since he came in. He was also notorious for working players hard so would always need to have a decent squad available to pick from. The fatigue issue has been a concern for a number of years but nothing was done to properly address it. Players that aren't reliable should have been moved on. Ox is never going to make it here under Klopp, Keita is in the last chance saloon, Matip was always going to break down after a few games as well. Origi was no where near good enough 4 years ago and that still hasn't changed. Milner is 35 and well past it. Gini is still a vital part of the team and out of contract in a few months so no wonder he couldn't be arsed. Holding out for silly valuations for some players that your never going to get is madness. Cut your loss and move on but we just let them walk out rather than take a few mil less than what we value them at. This all has affects on what we can do in terms of the wage we can offer and how much we can afford to spend on a target.

We have often spent months on a player only to walk away over the clubs valuation, We have also agreed terms with players only for it to then fall apart for one reason or another. Jota was out of the blue and surprised everyone but now it appears Sarr was the one we really wanted. Bottom line is that financial reasons will always come first. If a deal for the player we want cant be got on our terms then we just move on to another one. January the first should have seen a decent replacement come in but they couldn't be ar$ed and we are so lucky Matip didn't last another two games because it would have been too late to do anything. Even what we did do was get a player from a championship side and another from a side propping up the Bundesliga with an option to buy. That only came about at the expense of getting a loan fee to offload one of our attacking options. Mini isn't the best but a hell of a lot better than Origi. Edwards has been getting way to much credit for this kind of stuff. 

Expenditure, Policy all contributing to the problem imo.
User avatar
red till i die!!
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 7333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:35 pm
Location: ireland

Postby Reg » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:17 pm

Red, Klopp seems to be the only one who doesn't see this. He'll let Gini leave on a free because he thinks Curtis Jones will replace him - 1 for 1. Gini is past his prime but at the same time could be replaced by Grealish in an instant quality wise if the club wanted to spend the money. There are 20 replacements in the EPL for Origi playing for Palace, WHU, Wolves or Fulham who whilst not Salah world class will do a better job than twinkle toes.

We've all been saying for months to get rid of the deadwood and for unknown reasons that defy comprehension they didn't and when back up was needed it didn't exist.

Man City are back on top of the league with their multi million pound squad rested, rotated and in good spirits. They've lost De Bruyne through injury however the team performances haven't suffered at all.

It's not enough to have a good first 11, if we want to compete season after season with the top guns at home and in europe we must have a squad structure that allows us to absorb these set backs without leading to a implosion.

Klopp did a magnificent job winning the CL and league, but THIS is the defining moment, how we respond and hopefully recover from this melt down by introducing a change in squad philosophy that will take us through the next 10 year cycle.
User avatar
Reg
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12536
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:24 am
Location: Singapore

Postby electrum » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:36 pm

Klopp has exceeded all expectations, no doubt. He was 11mm and a Karius meltdown away from 2 XPL and 2 XCL in his 5 years at the club- has anyone ever done this before.

FSG have ridden Klopps coat tails in that he has over delivered with the hand he was dealt.

If anyone thinks we will challenge regularly with our current sell to buy policy they are deluded. We have maybe next year where we will challenge given we may actually have two CB available.

After that we need a full revamp of half of the squad. The work should start this summer with a CB, an AM and an out and out 6'10 striker preferably..  :Oo: (tongue in cheek but we have zero aerial attacking threat without VVD)
electrum
LFC Advanced Member
 
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 6:42 pm

Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:16 pm

electrum » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:36 pm wrote:Klopp has exceeded all expectations, no doubt. He was 11mm and a Karius meltdown away from 2 XPL and 2 XCL in his 5 years at the club- has anyone ever done this before.

FSG have ridden Klopps coat tails in that he has over delivered with the hand he was dealt.

If anyone thinks we will challenge regularly with our current sell to buy policy they are deluded. We have maybe next year where we will challenge given we may actually have two CB available.

After that we need a full revamp of half of the squad. The work should start this summer with a CB, an AM and an out and out 6'10 striker preferably..  :Oo: (tongue in cheek but we have zero aerial attacking threat without VVD)


In Jurgen’s 5 years at the club he has got us to 2 CL finals and a Europa League final, this at a club that had qualified for the CL once in the previous 6 or 7 years.
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 11202
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:54 pm
Location: Liverpool

Postby Lallana in Pyjamas » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:42 am

Your figures appear to be a bit wrong ?


We have spent just over £500mil since Klopp arrived and close to nearly £900mil since FSG arrived

The club can only spend what money it makes so you cannot compare the spending power of a club that runs self sufficient to one that is backed by oil Billionare who is happy to throw millions at the club and another club that just adds leveraged debt onto it - it’s not “frugal” , it’s working to a budget , one which will be affected by the significant loss of match day revenue

We started this season with better squads that both City and UTD - we brought three players to provide more squad depth during a period of financial instability within the sport - we were still the best team in the league

The reason why we are struggling isn’t because of transfer spending but because of an unprecedented level of injuries


Only 5 players so far have this season not been injured for more than 3 weeks

Over the season we have lost

Alisson
TAA
VVD
Matip
Gomez
Fabinho
Henderson
Keita
Milner
Jota

All for significant periods during the season

Add in other injuries and Covid issues to

Ox
Shaqiri
Origi
Mane
Salah


That just leaves Jones , Robbo and Gini as the only players not to have been out through injury

Now imagine City without all their CB’s plus Fernandino plus De Bryune , plus Gundogen - all at the same time

The same with UTD without Fernandes there CB’s

They would all be struggling - maybe even worse than us

No team can compensate for the level of injuries we have suffered


Just think of the level of first team we have without that sort of injury list.

Alisson
TAA
VVD
Gomez
Robbo

Henderson
Fabinho
Keita

Mane
Firmino
Salah

Subs

Kelleher
Matip
Tsimikas
Gini
Thiago
Milner
Shaqiri
Jones
Origi
Jota


It’s a squad that is there with the best
Lallana in Pyjamas
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:01 am

Postby red till i die!! » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:10 am

Reg wrote:Red, Klopp seems to be the only one who doesn't see this. He'll let Gini leave on a free because he thinks Curtis Jones will replace him - 1 for 1. Gini is past his prime but at the same time could be replaced by Grealish in an instant quality wise if the club wanted to spend the money. There are 20 replacements in the EPL for Origi playing for Palace, WHU, Wolves or Fulham who whilst not Salah world class will do a better job than twinkle toes..


Klopp has nothing to do with contracts Reg, If he did Gini would be getting a deal in line with those around him as he was just as big a part of the success as they were. This is all Edwards and he isn't budging on his offer so we are where we are. He should have been sold last year but I remember reading that it was worth more to us to keep him. He couldn't be ar$ed on that pitch anyway. Grealish is a good player but Villa would be looking massive money probably north of 70mil. Instant improvement I agree.

Jones is a local lad and because of that he is actually better than he is if you know what I mean, Same with Trent. I don't think he would be playing as much only for the injuries. Milner, Keita would be starting ahead of him and he'd be further squeezed for a game with Fab and Hendo fit.

The real test of how good our squad is has always been the domestic Cups. Look at the teams we fielded and how quick they exited because they weren't good enough. Having to use those players seriously lowers the quality in the first team and the more of them the bigger impact it has. I don't blame Klopp for sticking with the same players because the options are much worse. He does however deserve some stick for stuff like playing Fab and Hendo at CH instead of using Phillips though. The medical department get away with a lot as well. They seem to be poor at managing player injuries from the amount of time they are out to the amount of time they last when back.
User avatar
red till i die!!
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 7333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:35 pm
Location: ireland

Postby Penguins » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:33 pm

electrum » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:36 pm wrote:Klopp has exceeded all expectations, no doubt. He was 11mm and a Karius meltdown away from 2 XPL and 2 XCL in his 5 years at the club- has anyone ever done this before.

FSG have ridden Klopps coat tails in that he has over delivered with the hand he was dealt.

If anyone thinks we will challenge regularly with our current sell to buy policy they are deluded. We have maybe next year where we will challenge given we may actually have two CB available.

After that we need a full revamp of half of the squad. The work should start this summer with a CB, an AM and an out and out 6'10 striker preferably..  :Oo: (tongue in cheek but we have zero aerial attacking threat without VVD)


I have been saying that for an eternity and everyone jumped on my back. Well, who was right?
Penguins
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 2369
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:25 am

Postby Lallana in Pyjamas » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:18 am

electrum » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:36 pm wrote:Klopp has exceeded all expectations, no doubt. He was 11mm and a Karius meltdown away from 2 XPL and 2 XCL in his 5 years at the club- has anyone ever done this before.

FSG have ridden Klopps coat tails in that he has over delivered with the hand he was dealt.

If anyone thinks we will challenge regularly with our current sell to buy policy they are deluded. We have maybe next year where we will challenge given we may actually have two CB available.

After that we need a full revamp of half of the squad. The work should start this summer with a CB, an AM and an out and out 6'10 striker preferably..  :Oo: (tongue in cheek but we have zero aerial attacking threat without VVD)



We don’t have a sell to buy policy

Not one single player has ever been sold just to facilitate a player being bought


And we have been challenging regulary
Lallana in Pyjamas
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:01 am

Postby devaney » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:49 am

Lallana in Pyjamas » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:18 am wrote:
electrum » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:36 pm wrote:Klopp has exceeded all expectations, no doubt. He was 11mm and a Karius meltdown away from 2 XPL and 2 XCL in his 5 years at the club- has anyone ever done this before.

FSG have ridden Klopps coat tails in that he has over delivered with the hand he was dealt.

If anyone thinks we will challenge regularly with our current sell to buy policy they are deluded. We have maybe next year where we will challenge given we may actually have two CB available.

After that we need a full revamp of half of the squad. The work should start this summer with a CB, an AM and an out and out 6'10 striker preferably..  :Oo: (tongue in cheek but we have zero aerial attacking threat without VVD)



We don’t have a sell to buy policy

Not one single player has ever been sold just to facilitate a player being bought


And we have been challenging regulary


You’re suggesting that my NET SPEND transfer figures are a bit wrong? Obviously when somebody compares apples with pears the figures will appear to be incorrect. You have simply and very broadly quoted gross expenditure. You seem to have very conveniently ignored the fact that we sold players to generate those funds. To suggest that we have not sold one single player to facilitate a player being born bought is ridiculous. Torres-Carroll, Coutinho-Alison and VVD, Hoever-Jota.  I could go on but to be frank your comment is so obtuse that I simply cannot be bothered wasting my time.I don’t mind a bit of positivity but you stretch the boundaries to the very maximum.

Forget about United and City and the crazy money they have spent. Our NET spending is on a par with Everton! Since winning the CL and during a time when the club has made some very serious money,just take a look at what we have bought and spent since winning the CL. Winning the CL resulted in prize money of over £100m. I was being generous when I said frugal. They have been downright tight !!

It is all very well listing our squad which when everybody is fit looks very impressive. Simply ignoring the fact that several of our key players are close to or over 30 is a failure to plan for the future.

I clearly stated that IMHO there are several factors why the club is in its current position. You seem to have ignored that simply to fit your own fluffy little agenda.
Net Spend Over The Last 5 Years (10 years
are in brackets)
LFC £111m (£339m)
Everton £255m (£329m)
Arsenal £307m (£471m)
Spurs £204m (£167m)
Chelsea £264m (£498m)
Man City £563m (£1020m)
Man United £498m (£944m)
devaney
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 4546
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:12 am
Location: Liverpool

Postby Lallana in Pyjamas » Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:06 pm

devaney » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:49 am wrote:
Lallana in Pyjamas » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:18 am wrote:
electrum » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:36 pm wrote:Klopp has exceeded all expectations, no doubt. He was 11mm and a Karius meltdown away from 2 XPL and 2 XCL in his 5 years at the club- has anyone ever done this before.

FSG have ridden Klopps coat tails in that he has over delivered with the hand he was dealt.

If anyone thinks we will challenge regularly with our current sell to buy policy they are deluded. We have maybe next year where we will challenge given we may actually have two CB available.

After that we need a full revamp of half of the squad. The work should start this summer with a CB, an AM and an out and out 6'10 striker preferably..  :Oo: (tongue in cheek but we have zero aerial attacking threat without VVD)



We don’t have a sell to buy policy

Not one single player has ever been sold just to facilitate a player being bought


And we have been challenging regulary


You’re suggesting that my NET SPEND transfer figures are a bit wrong? Obviously when somebody compares apples with pears the figures will appear to be incorrect. You have simply and very broadly quoted gross expenditure. You seem to have very conveniently ignored the fact that we sold players to generate those funds. To suggest that we have not sold one single player to facilitate a player being born bought is ridiculous. Torres-Carroll, Coutinho-Alison and VVD, Hoever-Jota.  I could go on but to be frank your comment is so obtuse that I simply cannot be bothered wasting my time.I don’t mind a bit of positivity but you stretch the boundaries to the very maximum.

Forget about United and City and the crazy money they have spent. Our NET spending is on a par with Everton! Since winning the CL and during a time when the club has made some very serious money,just take a look at what we have bought and spent since winning the CL. Winning the CL resulted in prize money of over £100m. I was being generous when I said frugal. They have been downright tight !!

It is all very well listing our squad which when everybody is fit looks very impressive. Simply ignoring the fact that several of our key players are close to or over 30 is a failure to plan for the future.

I clearly stated that IMHO there are several factors why the club is in its current position. You seem to have ignored that simply to fit your own fluffy little agenda.




Unless I have missed something you didn’t mention net spend

Your post just said

Over the last 10 years City and United have spent £1020m and £944m respectively. Liverpool have spent £339m which is just £10m more than Everton. Liverpool’s success during the last 10 years compared to Everton has been phenomenal and the same can be said of City compared to United. Money matters but clearly it is not the only factor. During the last 5 years which is Liverpool’s most successful period during the last 10 years they  have spent a measly (in football terms) £111m and this for me this is the real problem. City have spent £563m and United have spent £498m during the same period and that is at a time when United have been suffering. Even Everton have spent £256m and brought in a world class manager.


Net spend is always going to at a lower level in a club that works on a self sufficient model as we do and always have done

We haven’t sold players just so that some can arrive

We sold the likes of Torres , Coutinho , Suarez because they wanted to leave the club - not because we needed the money to buy someone else , that’s not sell to buy

Sell to buy is selling someone just so you can buy someone else - it’s that simple


We work on a self sufficent model - any money earned is then spent on wages , transfer fees etc

Any player that has been sold in the past 5 years has either wanted to leave or is no longer required


It’s no different to when we sold the likes of Keegan or Rush and then used the money to buy the likes of Kenny , Barnes and Beardsley

It’s the model and make up of the club - self sustaining, using money earned from all areas to then spend and that will include player sales - that’s just the model


Everton are currently being backed by a rich benefactor who is using his own money and putting debt on the club - do we want to start doing that as well ?

People always want to seem to focus on Net spend - does it matter as long as the right players are arriving and can someone really point to out transfer policy and state it’s not worked ?

Where do people expect the extra money to come from


That £100mil earnings from CL is in the accounts and is spent within the club , we have one of the highest wage bills in Europe to service ,  no one is being frugal or tight , the club are spending what money we make , that’s very clear in the published accounts. The club are only going to spend money that’s made by the club - we aren’t going to be like other clubs and watch rich owners dipping into their own pockets - they were very clear when they took the club over

As for the age of the key players -someone reaching 30 isn’t the key for them to no longer be a top player - still have 3/4 years at the top level depending on who that player is - our key players are right now at the prime of their career and have years left in them but there is no doubt our very successful transfer policy will be looking at the future and the players to bring in
Lallana in Pyjamas
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:01 am

Next

Return to Liverpool FC - General Discussion

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 51 guests

  • Advertisement
Online Shop Builder Sell online and/or ePOS Till System sell in-store ShopTill-e provides you everything you need... With ShopTill-e you can sell everywhere it's a true Multichannel Retailing system!