Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Ahh, I see it now Mick--it was a pre-emptive strike rather than a reaction to what's already been posted.  Time for a new disclaimer then, mate.  Something along the lines of, "THE ABOVE COMMENTS DO NOT APPLY TO SABRE, IGOR AND BOB, SAINT AND BAM AND ALSO JUDGE (THE BEST)WHO TALK SENSE." 

Cheers Mick.

CHEERS ALSO

Feck me, anybody else 

[Judge]

Ahh, I see it now Mick--it was a pre-emptive strike rather than a reaction to what's already been posted.  Time for a new disclaimer then, mate.  Something along the lines of, "THE ABOVE COMMENTS DO NOT APPLY TO SABRE, IGOR AND BOB, SAINT AND BAM AND ALSO JUDGE (THE BEST)WHO TALK SENSE." 

Cheers Mick.

CHEERS ALSO

Feck me, anybody else 

apart from those mentioned already in the quoted post, there is no one else of any significance

[metalhead]

I was reading this today. a journalist asked Rafa this question:

Journalist: You have a big squad, everyone is happy when you're winning. There will be chances for players to come in. Benayoun – is it just a case of him staying calm and not snatching at chances when he gets an opportunity?

If you change a lot of players the rotation system is criticised. People will say 'the players need to play games in a row for confidence'. When you are winning games and giving confidence to some of the players by playing them in consistently people will say 'other players should be involved in the team'. But this is normal at a top side. I was talking with Yossi two weeks ago and he is okay. He knows he has to be ready and, if he plays, he has to show something.

----------

Bigmick's words was heard by Rafa.

However, I don't think alot of fans are criticising less rotation! naybe some fans are saying Rafa should give a chance to a few players, but its better if we play a settled side.

[Bad Bob]

I was reading this today. a journalist asked Rafa this question:

Journalist: You have a big squad, everyone is happy when you're winning. There will be chances for players to come in. Benayoun – is it just a case of him staying calm and not snatching at chances when he gets an opportunity?

If you change a lot of players the rotation system is criticised. People will say 'the players need to play games in a row for confidence'. When you are winning games and giving confidence to some of the players by playing them in consistently people will say 'other players should be involved in the team'. But this is normal at a top side. I was talking with Yossi two weeks ago and he is okay. He knows he has to be ready and, if he plays, he has to show something.

----------

Bigmick's words was heard by Rafa.

However, I don't think alot of fans are criticising less rotation! naybe some fans are saying Rafa should give a chance to a few players, but its better if we play a settled side.

Yet there was a shout from a number of members recently that we should be giving Babel a run of games up top despite the fact that the current team is by and large doing the business.  The argument for playing Babel seemed at least in part to be based on the worry that sitting him on the bench each week was affecting his confidence and that he might wish to leave.  So, I do think that some people are inadvertently advocating for more rotation to keep players who are close to the first team happy.  Me, I'm pretty much a convert at this stage and do want a winning formula messed with for the sake of giving Babel or Yossi or Lucas a game.

[Bad Bob]

Ahh, I see it now Mick--it was a pre-emptive strike rather than a reaction to what's already been posted.  Time for a new disclaimer then, mate.  Something along the lines of, "THE ABOVE COMMENTS DO NOT APPLY TO SABRE, IGOR AND BOB, SAINT AND BAM AND ALSO JUDGE (THE BEST)WHO TALK SENSE." 

Cheers Mick.

CHEERS ALSO

Now that takes the biscuit.  

[Judge]

[maguskwt]

Good rotation or bad rotation?

Ok now, I'm finding this strange myself as I'm the one bringing up this rotation thread now. But I just feel that rotation has been talked about in the negative light too much, only when things are gone wrong. So I would like to know what people think about rafa's little reshuffle (this is what I like to call it) of the line up against blackburn? I'm not saying this just because we won... but I thought it was a very much needed reshuffle after the team that rafa's been picking seemed to have stalled a bit after drawing 2 weeks in a row at home against fulham and westham. It also brought abit of freshness to the team I thought. Two decisions stood out, dropping Riera and Keane:

Riera started his career at Liverpool very well and brought very good balace to the team. But he seems to always have fitness issues as his performance goes down near the end of every game. And lately we all know he hasn't been firing on all cylinders . It was a good decision by rafa to tell the lad he's done good and he needs a deserved rest. This way when he comes back he'll bring to the team his usual effectiveness, trickiness and balance back to the team. When he did come on we all saw how effective he was, taking on defenders, playing one-two's and providing that assist to gerrard. He's not your usual mega-star winger but he has plenty of game intelligence and quick thinking which make his game very effecitve. It is important for us that rafa did not burn him out in his first season when he's still coping with a new league and style of football.

Robbie Keane, well what can I say. I've always liked Robbie Keane but he seems to be trying too hard and not performing at all. It was a correct decision by rafa to drop him at last. Relieve him of the pressure and tell him... look take a look from a distance at how some of the other lads play. Take it easy, you've got talent, and you will come good. In his stead I thought Kuyt played relatively well. He didn't score, but he did his job considering there wasn't much service. I especially liked his move in late second half he received the ball and found he had some space and tried to attack the goal, relieved us from blackburn's pressure. If this was torres it would've probably resulted in a goal but Kuyt is calmer than Keane right now and he's making better decisions than Keane and he also had one or two assists didn't he?

Another change was Insua playing left back instead of the usual Aurelio... thought he did very well...So all in all I thought it was a very much needed reshuffle of the team by rafa at the right time and the right amount. Not only was it 'sensible rotation' it was pretty much a 'neccessary rotation'...

As a final word, I'd like to say that this team needs to grow together more and start thinking like a team. The players shouldn't be individualistic and say I want to play, I'm not happy because I'm not playing. If they're patient enough, they'll get their chances, and when they do get, grab the opportunity and perform. If they'll do that then we'll have a title-winning team and everyone will be happy.

[bigmick]

It seems only fair to revisit the old thread after the interesting selection against Blackburn. The selection and the result threw up a couple of interesting (well to me anyway ) nuances, and rather than go onto the match thread it's best to do it in here.

Firstly, there is the question of whether the team changes were justified from the point of view of the players left out. Now there were arguably three main changes to what most would consider our strongest line up (assuming Hyppia for Agger was through injury), and we'll start at the back. Dossena has started his Liverpool career very poorly and has been slagged by all and sundry (including me) but I thought in the game against West Ham he was one of our best players. Now if it's the case that he was 100% fit, I think his omission for Insua is the most baffling and intriguing selection of all. I know quite a lot of lads rate the Argentine full back, but we've just shelled out 7 million quid for Dossena, he's hardly played of late so he's surely not tired, and has just put in his best performance. I can only conclude from this selection that Rafa is beating his own already sharpish record for admitting he's made a mistake, and that Dossena is on his way back to mItaly fairly quick smart. I honestly can't see any other conclusion to draw from Insua's selection, and if that's not the case the selection was IMHO an extrmely strange one as it will hardly build the confidence of the Italian.

In midfield the manager chose to leave out Riera which was an overdue move IMHO. I think after a bright start he's been on borrowed time for a while now, and dropping him/resting him is something I personally would have done two or three weeks ago. His actual contribution to games other than the looking tidy/giving us balance angle has progressively diminished to the point where it is negligable. IMHO he should be by no means a shu-in to get his place back immediately.

Up top, after much touting in the press (which is worrying for a manager who apparently doesn't reveal his team uintil an hour before kick-off) Keane was dropped/rested. It's hard to argue that he actually deserves a start given his most recent performances, but then again it's equally hard to argue that it will massively boost his confidence to sit on his erse either. I think this one was more a case of Rafa admitting that Keane can't really play up top on his own. The fly in the ointment with leaving out Keane of course is that it necessitates playing Kuyt up there. This is dually detrimental as it a) weakens our right side and b) demonstrates for all to see that though he may be many things, "Dirky boy" certainly aint no striker.

So we ended up with a fairly heavily rotated line-up, which eventually got home with a bit to spare against Blackburn. Does that mean the changes worked? Well in a sense it does yes. It certainly means that the changes didn't have a hugely detrimental effect on our ability to get a result, and given that none of the players rested/benched have been playing well (with the possible extremely recent exception of Dossena) that is hardly surprising.

Have we gained from it? This is a tricky one. I think we have in some ways and not in others. Insua for example has fairly obviously now proved he's at least a candidate for the left back slot. You could probably argue that given the fact that Aurelio is injured most of the time, and that Dossena has "taken time to settle" he wouldn't have to be exactly Paulo Maldini to be a live contender, but whatever he proved he was anyway and we're better off for knowing it. It probably hasn't done wonders for Dossens's demeanour, but as I said earlier I can only conclude that Rafa has ceased to give a sh!te either way about him and his confidence.

Riera now knows we can actually play without him, which is no doubt going to be a positive. That we didn't play particularly well is by the by, we haven't played particularly well with him in the team either recently so it was time for a change. I'd actually advocate leaving him out for the next game as I think Benayoun has done enough to get a start. The pro-rotationalists will no doubt argue that he will benefit for the "rest" (probably short term as the "delayed gazelle" theroy seems to have bit the dust recently) but as I've explained many times, I mostly think such statements are utter b0ll0cks so there's no point in going into it here. I think leaving him out for the next match as well is a good idea not because it'll make him even fresher (because it won't) but because it'll give him something to prove when he does come back in.

Although Owz disputes it, Keane simply must play on a fairly regular basis because we paid 20 million quid for him. We quite simply aren't a rich enough club to spunk 20 million quid in cold blood, and if Rafa really has decided that the Irishman is a liability after 15 matches, he should never be trusted with such a huge sum of money again. He hasn't though obviously, but we really are going to have to try and find a way to get some decent play out of Keane. It appears the partnership with Torres doesn't seem to work too well, and it appears he can't really play up top on his own, so my hunch is we're going to hatch a system whereby Gerrard plays almost as an out and out striker alongside Keane. I won't go into that here as the post is long enough already, but that's probably going to be the answer in the shortish to mediumish term (I actually think Torres may be going to be out for longer than we're currently been told).

So all in all, the selection provided more questions than answers. I wouldn't have gone for it myself, but we still managed to eke out a result. We are though going to have to play better at some point in the near future if we are going to keep on winning. The best way to achive that is by consistent selection as we've proved many times in the past, and my hope as always is that we keep this idea at the forefront of our minds when we're selecting the team.

I have been convinced over the last three seasons that more consistent selections would result in a title challenge, and so far it has proved to be the case. I was also convinced that such consistency would result in more fluency and cohesion, but maddeningly this has proved to be elusive and I can't quite put my finger on why. There reamins absolutely no doubt in my mind however that if selections such as the one in the Blackburn game became the norm rather than the exception, and we actually started benching people who were in rich viegns of form (Crouch style, Gerrard style, Torres style, Pompey away style, Reading away style) then  our title challenge will unravel before our eyes very quickly.

It's time for the team, the fans and most importantly the manager to hold their nerve. Here we are sixteen games in and top of the league. It's been achieved by conventional selection methods, after four seasons of styling and no challenges. It might be a total coincidence, and it might not. It would take more than one styled selection ad victory though to convince me that the previous four seasons were a flash in the pan, and that the methodology can work after all. It can't, it won't, and I think Rafa knows that too. That's why these days he drops people out of form and largely plays the same team. Nothing to worry about, the lights not been turned off and it wasn't an illusion. Fiat Lux, we move onto the next game.

[Sabre]

It seems only fair to revisit the old thread after the interesting selection against Blackburn. The selection and the result threw up a couple of interesting (well to me anyway ) nuances, and rather than go onto the match thread it's best to do it in here.

While I agree the bits about finding Insua there baffling at the beginning. While I agree that if you analyse that game independently you could talk about a rotated team, we're currently under "Rafa's seen the light" times. We haven't really changed our policy for the season.

Meaning, I won't go opportunistic and say that a rotated team has ended our apparent goal drought. That would be silly of me.

It would be opportunistic of me aswell, to have come back the last week and say "see? under the blinding light of lack of rotation we also have bliiips, and the game doesn't seem fluent". Although I think that bit would be probably fair, as I always found that not rotating isn't a magic formula.

I think that yesterday line-up, a weaker Liverpool team on paper (No Torres, Riera, Keane, or Aurelio), had absences due to injuries, bad forms, or too many games in a row. I don't think that Rafa has changed policy, that is. It's important to make clear this, otherwise you'll be tempted to blame rotation of the 3 games we lost this season .

My point is simple, rotating or not are man management methods, but not crucial, nor magic. Rotation and the lack of it has advantages. Even when you don't rotate you drop players for bad performance. So, even if you don't rotate a la Rafa, you can drop Dossena when he's poor, Keane when not scoring, or Riera when he's tired.

You might argue that doing all these changes all of a sudden was risky, and I'll agree, but I don't think Rafa has changed the policy for this season. Just a coincidence of bad forms, injuries, and some players playing too many games in a row.

I'll tell you something Bigmick, I've yielded in my position quite a bit through out these years. In my local club the manager is starting to use one team for away teams, one team for home teams. And I found myself posting "How can Rivas build confidence if he makes a hell of a game and the he's sat down at home?". And I was scared , was I converted?

It's important to analyse the reasons for a player to be sat down. And I don't think yesterday we had changes for the sake of changing, the players that were sat down, had either bad forms, or too many games in their pocket. WHen available, playing reasonably well, and they're not too knackered, I too like to see the strongest team as possible. And I'm concerned too when I don't see it.

[bigmick]

Yep I agree Sabes. I think the selection yesterday was more of a traditional "dropping players who are out of form" than it was rotation. It still led to much changed team, but as I said in my marathon post only Dossena IMHO could count himself unlucky not to play. Riera has been distinctly average as of late, and keane was poor against West Ham.

It's when players get left out for no apparent reason, or when they're in a rich run of form that rotation has a particularly devastating effect. That's why I'd now keep Benayoun in, he's done enough IMHO to get himself a start and see how he goes. That's something coming from me as I don't rate him at all.

[JoeTerp]

only counting from one premier league match to another, and adjusting for "forced" changes due to injury/suspension etc. Rafa is making 1.6 changes per premier league match this season.  And if you don't believe in forced changes, the number is 2.73.

One of the biggest rotation periods of the season came on the heels of beating Chelsea when we rotated an unforced 4 players for the 1-0 pompey win which was followed by 5 changes (which were mostly "changes back" to the normal XI in the first league loss of the season to Spurs (a game which actually saw some of our best play in open field for long stretches)

[Sabre]

only counting from one premier league match to another, and adjusting for "forced" changes due to injury/suspension etc. Rafa is making 1.6 changes per premier league match this season.  And if you don't believe in forced changes, the number is 2.73.

One of the biggest rotation periods of the season came on the heels of beating Chelsea when we rotated an unforced 4 players for the 1-0 pompey win which was followed by 5 changes (which were mostly "changes back" to the normal XI in the first league loss of the season to Spurs (a game which actually saw some of our best play in open field for long stretches)

What were the numbers other seasons mate?

And a question which I still don't understand after so many pages of discussion. I like rotation but not changing 6 players from match to match unless the game is largely irrelevant.

However, when you do that massive rotation, sometimes you can foresee a disaster, and the dissaster happens. But in days like today, for some reason, you play a very rotated team and you still can compete.

The reasons of this can be a couple

a) As John Craig says, PSV was one of the poorest teams we've faced, at least for what they showed today.

b) There are certain players like Mascherano, that if they're present on the pitch they can carry on their shoulders a whole team, for me, and despite the goal it was a very good game of his.

The truth is, that this rotation or rest today served us well. No worries for Gerrard, some players getting confidence, nice one.

Disclaimer: Not saying rotation works or it's magic, nor Rafa is back to Rafa rotation, just saying that sometimes a heavy rotation can be understood in an irrelevant game, and sometimes you can even play a decent match.

[Bam]

Like Mick said all along, get through the group as early as possible and then you can afford to play a rotated team. It just happens we won which was a real bonus.

Its good you put that disclaimer in.

[Sabre]

So, what's your take, why today we saw a decent game, which was the point of the post:

a), b), or c) another one you might add.

[bigmick]

Rafa is making 1.6 changes per premier league match this season.  And if you don't believe in forced changes, the number is 2.73.

One of the biggest rotation periods of the season came on the heels of beating Chelsea when we rotated an unforced 4 players for the 1-0 pompey win which was followed by 5 changes (which were mostly "changes back" to the normal XI in the first league loss of the season to Spurs (a game which actually saw some of our best play in open field for long stretches)

What were the numbers other seasons mate?[/quote]
I've never really liked the numerical system of keeping tabs on rotation to be honest. Leaving Gerrard and Torres out at Fraton Park isn't the same as swapping Auelio for Dossena and Kuyt for Benayoun and it never has been. Equally, games like the one Joe highlighted where four changes are made and then flipped back giving you nine changes in two matches distort the picture somewhat.

I've no doubt that some pro-rotationer will use the changes made for this match, and then the switches back for the League game as a stat in a few weeks time. The 15 or so changes this counts for will be lost in some meaningless stat "we've made 4.2 changes to the team on average so far for each game" and suddenly we'll all be trying to convince ourselves that it's an illusion, Rafa is actually rotating just as much as he did in previous seasons (not aimed at Sabre that bit. He's been honest enough to admit the "seeing of the light").




As for the other question, it's a fair one. How comes we played Ok tonight with mass-rotation? It's worth remembering when answering that one that it's by no means the first time that we've played well with mass rotation. I can remember during Rafa's tenure a number of periods, clutches of games where we've looked cohesive and effective with mass rotation. We've finished in the top four of the Premiership each season so we've fairly obviously won a lot of football matches, styling or not. The problem has been that we haven't enough of them, not consistently enough to prosper. Equally, our record against the better teams has frankly been awful.

Mixed in with the many decent performances have been the poor ones. Pompey Away, Birmingham Home, Reading Away and the like which have scuppered our chances. Often when some of us bemoaned the selections in those games we had to put disclaimers in because we got swamped by a swarm of numpties. "So are you saying that if Torres had played, we absolutely definately would have won the game" they asked. Again, and again, and again. Of course nobody can say that, you can guess that you'd have more chance of winning a game, but nobody can say for certain.

Equally, you can fairly safely guess that if a player has been playing with regularity in the same position, he has a pretty good chance of being more effective than a bloke who's brought in for his first game in a month. Ditto if you've got a bunch of your first choice players playing together regularly, you would expect them to be better than a mish mash of rotationees/hungry cheetahs. You can never be certain though, bung some players together and they just might play Ok on the day. Make six changes for the next match and you never know, it just might work. Do you have more chance though of finding consistency though if you select consistently? Well I think so yes, and I think results this season are an indication of that.

I was all for the selection tonight, infact I would have rotated it more TBPH. That's the way to go though, get the qualification out of the way and then rest people.

One more round and then the competition proper starts in the last 8. Four English teams will be in there, here's hoping we can avoid them this time (though we'll have to play one in the semis and final no doubt).