Liverpool FC Forum

[112-1077774096]

sorry destro but i have to disagree a little, if i remember rightly red nose had a few years before he won the league with the mancs (maybe 7 years) but as i remember it he won the league with a cheaply assembled squad made up largely of players who came through their youth system. Remember hansen "you will win nothing with kids"


as for our spending, lets just say for arguments sake that we have spent less than the mancs and chavs (although we must be pretty damn close to their spending), then lets say we have outspent west ham, spurs, stoke, hull etc etc etc yet they still manage to take points away from us. spending money is not the be all and end all of winning the league, we can have the 11 most expensive players in our squad and still not win the league as most of them will be twiddling their thumbs on the bench or playing out of position with rafa in charge.

lets just forget about all this spending bollox, you all talked about the chavs and mancs buying the league and are now complaining that we can't buy the league.

the fact is we have a mnager who is too negative, just take the game against the bitters, he took off keane and torres to defend the lead, we lost the lead and then had nothing left in an attacking sense. lets just look at the league, we got ourselves ahead and then the negativity set in, we lost our lead and now i have to question whether we will get it back.

[bigmick]

I think the first time man Utd won it Pee was with the Ince/Pallister/Bruce/McClair team to be honest (I'm only going from memory too tho so might be wrong). It was an expensively put together team as I recall. After that, as that team aged he replaced it with the kids but i don't think that was the team which started off their run.

Obviously to be at the top for as long as they have, they've rebuilt the team many times. That's kind of why I don't buy into this "but Man Utd were miles ahead of Liverpool when Rafa first came" argument. That they were is beyond question, but my impression is that they've almost rebuilt the team since then.

Sure Ferdinand was there pre Rafa, as was a young Ronaldo and the home grown players. Their first team these days though includes the likes of Evra, Vidic, Van Der Sar, Carrick, Nani, Tevez etc so there has been a fair bit of buying by Ferguson.

During the same period, we've obviously retained Gerrard and Carragher, Hyppia etc. We've only very recently sold the two fullbacks which were left behind as well so although there's a difference, it doesn't seem to be as big as many would have you believe.

[tubby]

The difference between us and them is that they always buy top quality players where as we buy mostly average quality players but now and again buy some top quality players. How many players from Utd based on quality would get into our squad? Probably most of them. How many of our players would get into their 1st team? You could count them on 1 hand.

[Bad Bob]

There are times when I just can't see this meticulous building process for the life of me.

This is the one thing that's started to get me worried about Rafa.  If you'll recall, rotation didn't bother me over much ( ) and the "he's too defensive" argument fails to convince me either but when it comes to the buying and selling of players, there's now enough evidence to raise an eyebrow.  When Rafa's been given money he has frequently spent well, in the case of Torres, Mascherano or Alonso for example.  But, that old argument has been recently sullied by the money spent on Keane and Babel and other fairly expensive signings who don't look like the players we need to fill the gaps we have in the squad.  In some cases, Rafa has done brilliantly to sign unfancied players with reasonably modest transfer funds who turn out to be quality (Reina, Skrtel and Agger come to mind).  In other cases, the bargain buys have not been up to it (Voronin, Pennant, Zenden, Josemi...).  True, he ships them out sharpish but there seems to be a revolving door in particular positions that have been problem areas for ages.  Eventually, a lad like Riera or Arbeloa come along and have enough quality to make a position their own but, if we're honest, they're still a level below the players our rivals can put out in those same crucial positions. And then there's the whole Alonso thing this summer, which was a real eye opener.  I contended at the time that swapping Alonso for Barry was a major mistake and I think Xabi's subsequent form has borne me out (I'm not saying Barry's not a good player but we didn't need to waste the better part of the transfer window trying to replace a quality central midfielder with another quality central midfielder).  I can't for the life of me understand why we would have been looking to move on one of our better players (and one of Rafa's most successful signings) when so many other pieces of the puzzle were still missing.  So, like you Mick, I'm beginning to wonder if we're building to anything better with our signings year upon year because there seems to be a lot of trial and error going on.

Back to the original question, I would never say categorically that Rafa has to win it or he's gone.  I'm a proponent of the building a base camp idea and I'll be happy to give him another shot if we keep the race close and if, come May, you could throw a relatively roomy blanket over us and the Mancs at the top of the table.  We have mounted a sustained challenge so far this season and the only thing that would make me not see that as sufficient progress is if we were to fade horribly during the run-in.

[Sabre]

So, Bob, you wouldn't give him a long contract now, right?

The revolving doors criticism in some positions is undeniable. The fact we're debating to bring back Heskey speaks volumes. Only Torres signing has been convincing enough upfront, and I admit that criticism.

In the CM, he has built a much stronger team than the one that Houllier had. When Mick asked Gravesen and others, he wouldn't have mounted as strong midfield as Rafa has built, so in the CM department he has done the homework. It's true he was tempted to sell Alonso, or so it seems (there's the possibility of it being a way to press Xabi or Parry). But in the CM has done his homework.

In the CB, he has done the homework. 4 years ago I was worried about how we would make the transition from Carra-Hyypia, to the next CB, and IMHO Rafa might have secured the future.

In the Goal, a crucial position, he got it right from moment one when Reina still had things to prove.

In the wings, is where the revolving doors description is true. Riera ended it in the left only recently, and in the right we have tried lots of things but none convinced bar Gerrard.

Another positive point of Rafa is that he's able to make the players thinking we're building something. Alonso didn't want to go even if it happened what happened. Mascherano doesn't want to leave. Gerrard had temptations to go some years back, now nobody is worried. Torres would deny a millionaire offer of City. So, I think, that's an unbiased sign of progress. Normally players leave when they don't see they'll win titles, or when they don't earn enough money.

At this point you have to take a decission whether that's progress or not. You can't wait until the end of season because many teams will knocking Rafa's door (I think that if other teams want him is because they see progress in our club right?), so it's the time to give him a contract, or not.

IMHO he has done enough to get it, and automatically that answers the question of the thread.

[Madmax]

Interesting points sabre, i would have to agree that in the positions you have mentioned rafa has given our team more stability and dimension. Just to point out wasnt it houllier who arranged our defence. Before houllier we were shyte at the back and when he arrived he bough in hyppia and henchoz and since then we have been fairly formidable at the back. At that period we did have a decent team we did progress when we won the treble (uefa cup etc..) But it was the season after that when we were meant to progress even further but we went downhill. Hence reason of houlliers demise and rafa taking over.

Ok with rafa we have made progress in our squad in certian possitions but his achievement is what should be looked at. If we do still challenge for the title come april and are still within touching distance but fall out than i would say yes we has maintained a good title challenge and benitez should be given an extension. But if we slip, fall down the table and end up bickering for 3rd or 4th than i think rafa has taken us as far as he could.

[Madmax]

Posted this at another thread but thought might aswel pop it in here aswel.

When rafa won the title with valencia they did draw alot of games and the other teams dropped alot of points.

Final 2001/2002 Spanish Primera Liga Table

                P     HW   HD   HL  HGF   HGA   AW  AD  AL   AGF   AGA  Points   GD
Valencia      38    14     4    1     28     8      7    8     4    23     19     75      +24
Deportivo     38    13    4     2     40    13     7    4     8    25     28     68      +24
Real Madrid   38    14    5     0     48    14     5    4    10   21     30     66      +25
Barcelona     38    12    5     2     44    17     6    5     8    21     20     64      +28
Celta Vigo     38   10     5    4     36     21     6    7    6    28     25     60       +18

Makes one wonder how many losses did real madrid and barca have. 10 for all the teams except valencia. All were absolutely shyte that season. I think thats the reason why valencia won the title that year. I cant see mannure and chelsea losing that many games. I think thats the reason why rafa stated the only way we will win the title is if the others drop alot of points.

Also another thing i have realized that rafa with his teams does tend to draw alot of matches. That season valencia drew 12 games in total. Majority being away though as thier home record was pretty good.



In his other title win valencia didnt draw many games but did lose alot and yet again the other teams dropped alot of points as you could see.

Final 2003/2004 Spanish Primera Liga Table

                 P   HW   HD  HL   HGF  HGA  AW   AD  AL  AGF  AGA  Points  GD
Valencia      38    12    3   4    38     16    11    5    3    33    11     77    +44
Barcelona    38    10    6   3    33     14    11    3    5    30    25     72    +24
Deportivo     38    13   3   3    36     15    8      5    6    24    19     71    +26
Real Madrid   38    13   2   4    43     26    8      5    6    29    28     70    +18

Barca recorded 8 losses, real 10 and deportive 9.. Some title race one must think.

This was la liga but one must think though would the situation have to be like this for rafa to land us the title??


Record with liverpool Last season

Final 2007/2008 English Premier Table

                 P    HW    HD  HL   HGF  HGA  AW   AD   AL   AGF  AGA   Points  GD
Man Utd     38    17     1    1     47    7      10    5     4    33    15      87    +58
Chelsea      38    12     7    0     36   13     13    3     3    29    13      85    +39
Arsenal      38    14     5    0     37    11     10    6     3    37    20      83    +43
Liverpool    38    12     6    1     43    13      9    7      3   24    15       76   +39

13 draws.. too much to mount a title challenge... similar memories with valencia season 2001/2002 They won the title then due to other teams playing absolutely shyte.

Best season in league for rafa
Final 2005/2006 English Premier Table

                P    HW    HD    HL   HGF  HGA   AW  AD   AL  AGF  AGA   Points GD
Chelsea     38    18     1      0    47     9      11    3    5     25    13     91    +50
Man Utd    38    13     5      1    37     8      12    3    4     35    26     83    +38
Liverpool    38    15     3      1    32    8      10    4    5     25    17     82     +32

Good amount of points which maybe in the spanish league he would have won the title by a mile. But shows you that as rafa stated for him to mount something similar like that he would need the other teams to drop alot of points
 
We all know both leagues are different but just trying to point out from rafa's record intervening with valencia and liverpool. With the way the premiership is in this modern era if you want to win the league you would have to win with a fairly flawless record. Rafa has not achieved that and i dont think he is capable of it.
Maybe with teams he manages this is how far he could take them..
I hope i am proven wrong and we with the title this year convincingly. But i have got the feeling when rafa stated mannure and chelsea have to dropped alot of point his telling us thats the only way. We wont win the 10+ draws. Also i cant see mannure and chelsea losing so many games. Time will tell

[Sabre]

Just to point out wasnt it houllier who arranged our defence.

Carra and Hyypia were previous to Rafa yes, although there seems to be people that thinks Rafa has made Carra a better CB. Others, think that's simply the evolution of Carra's career, him getting experience. I think they may be right both camps.

What Rafa has done IMHO is to give that partnership a future with Skrtl and Agger. I was worried about that transition now both Carra and Hyypia are older.

As for the second post, the ones of the tables with Valencia, that's the kind of stat that I wouldn't use for anything. Because you can make what you want out of it. Different teams, different everything, and could be read many ways. For instance, I take notice

1971   Valencia CF
1972   Real Madrid CF
1973   Atlético de Madrid
1974   FC Barcelona
1975   Real Madrid CF
1976   Real Madrid CF
1977   Atlético de Madrid
1978   Real Madrid CF
1979   Real Madrid CF
1980   Real Madrid CF
1981   Real Sociedad
1982   Real Sociedad
1983   Athletic de Bilbao
1984   Athletic de Bilbao
1985   FC Barcelona
1986   Real Madrid CF
1987   Real Madrid CF
1988   Real Madrid CF
1989   Real Madrid CF
1990   Real Madrid CF
1991   FC Barcelona
1992   FC Barcelona
1993   FC Barcelona
1994   FC Barcelona
1995   Real Madrid CF
1996   Atlético de Madrid
1997   Real Madrid CF
1998   FC Barcelona
1999   FC Barcelona
2000   RCD La Coruña
2001   Real Madrid CF
2002   Valencia CF
2003   Real Madrid CF
2004   Valencia CF
2005   FC Barcelona
2006   FC Barcelona
2007   Real Madrid
2008   Real Madrid

All I'll say is that Valencia Before 2002 won his last title in 1971. 31 fúcking years waiting, it's not the same winning the league with Valencia or Real Madrid.

And since 2005 Valencia doesn't seem to be nowhere near of winning it again, and they're in serious economic troubles.

Between 2002 and 2005 Rafa Benitez was there. . You can use numbers and facts to paint any reality you wish.

I hope that unlike in Valencia, the departure of Rafa from Liverpool will bring positive things to the club. I'll certainly support any manager as long as he does progress, slow or not.

[Madmax]

I understand what your saying sabre but what i was trying to point out with the stats was that this is the way rafa wins titles with his teams. Others have to play fairly shyte throughout and we have to be fairly flawless and consisten in the campaign just like mannure and chelsea have been in previous years. I hope will this year but under rafa i doubt that.

Reason why valencia won is because the others played like mid talble teams. The amount of losses was a disgrace to be hunting for a title.


Its the manager that brings his experience and tactics to a team. Maybe situations were different at valencia but given that fact that similar things with our leagues overall form has occurred it seems theres a similarity with his valencia mode and liverpool.

[dawson99]

If we become stale and the team don't respond to his methods, that's when he should go. Not before.
It's not about how good he is as a manager, it's only about how the player react to his management.

[Bad Bob]

So, Bob, you wouldn't give him a long contract now, right?

The revolving doors criticism in some positions is undeniable. The fact we're debating to bring back Heskey speaks volumes. Only Torres signing has been convincing enough upfront, and I admit that criticism.

In the CM, he has built a much stronger team than the one that Houllier had. When Mick asked Gravesen and others, he wouldn't have mounted as strong midfield as Rafa has built, so in the CM department he has done the homework. It's true he was tempted to sell Alonso, or so it seems (there's the possibility of it being a way to press Xabi or Parry). But in the CM has done his homework.

In the CB, he has done the homework. 4 years ago I was worried about how we would make the transition from Carra-Hyypia, to the next CB, and IMHO Rafa might have secured the future.

In the Goal, a crucial position, he got it right from moment one when Reina still had things to prove.

In the wings, is where the revolving doors description is true. Riera ended it in the left only recently, and in the right we have tried lots of things but none convinced bar Gerrard.

Another positive point of Rafa is that he's able to make the players thinking we're building something. Alonso didn't want to go even if it happened what happened. Mascherano doesn't want to leave. Gerrard had temptations to go some years back, now nobody is worried. Torres would deny a millionaire offer of City. So, I think, that's an unbiased sign of progress. Normally players leave when they don't see they'll win titles, or when they don't earn enough money.

At this point you have to take a decission whether that's progress or not. You can't wait until the end of season because many teams will knocking Rafa's door (I think that if other teams want him is because they see progress in our club right?), so it's the time to give him a contract, or not.

IMHO he has done enough to get it, and automatically that answers the question of the thread.

Good post Sabre and make no mistake, mate, I still think Rafa is capable of winning the title with Liverpool.  I'm just a little concerned that every other transfer window he seems to bring in players who don't make the grade or don't fulfill the potential they showed elsewhere and I can't make out why that is.  It might be worth taking a closer look at his transfer record (only looking at players that have played for first team on more than an occasional basis to date):

Summer 2004
Incoming:
Alonso (undoubted success)
Garcia (also a success, IMO)
Josemi (not good enough but we still had Finnan ahead of him)
Nunez (not a success but was foisted upon us in Owen deal)

Outgoing:
Owen (little Rafa could do)
Murphy (possibly could have used him to help steady the ship that first season)

Overall assessment: some quality buys in Rafa's first window

January 2005
Incoming:
Morientes (unfortunately, not the success that many of us expected)
Pellegrino (not a success on the pitch but a decent backup & a good presence in the dressing room)
Carson (good buy at the time, IMO, as back-up for Dudek)

Outgoing:
Henchoz (a better option than Pellegrino?)

Overall assessment: a disappointing window but hindsight's 20/20 with Morientes

Summer 2005
Incoming:
Crouch (a very good signing, IMO)
Reina (an absolutely excellent bit of business)
Sissoko (another good signing, IMO; was excellent that season)
Zenden (not an amazing contribution but not a complete flop either)

Outgoing:
Baros (good call, IMO; cash in while he retained some value)
Diouf (good riddance)
Nunez (Rafa's first quick axe and rightly so)
Biscan (never going to get a game in his preferred CM role)
Pellegrino (see Nunez above)
Smicer (good call but was Zenden much better?)

Overall assessment: Rafa's best transfer window, IMO

January 2006
Incoming:
Agger (excellent signing)
Fowler (a very shrewd transfer, IMO, and not just in terms of PR)
Kromkamp (replaced Josemi but also not up to it despite looking more promising)

Outgoing:
Josemi (good move)

Overall assessment: Again, I think Rafa did well in this window and a sense of momentum was really building

Summer 2006
Incoming:
Pennant (played well in patches but ultimately not good enough)
Kuyt (will run all day but he's not the player we signed from Feyenoord)
Bellamy (played well in patches but ultimately not good enough)
Paletta (not good enough)
Gonzalez (not good enough)
Aurelio (has shown glimpses of what he's capable of but very fragile)

Outgoing:
Morientes (had to move on)
Traore (good move)
Kromkamp (good move)
Hamann (sad to see him go but he wanted more football so fair play to him)
Mellor (good move)
Cheyrou (good move)

Overall assessment: a lot of incoming players but, in hindsight, a lot of stop-gap buys or 'hope they come goods'.  Arguably Rafa's most disappointing transfer window.

January 2007
Incoming:
Arbeloa (a good RB to challenge Finnan bought at the 3rd time of asking)
Mascherano (top quality signing [arguably signed in following summer technically but it matters not for this discussion])
Insua (time will tell whether he's the real deal but has showed signs of promise)

Outgoing:
Kirkland (decent keeper but made of glass = surplus to requirements)
Warnock (probably should have kept, in hindsight)
Diao (good move)

Overall assessment: a nice rebound window for Rafa: 3 good signings and a restored sense of momentum, perhaps.  Losing Warnock now looks a mistake in hindsight but perhaps we had little choice to sell since he was 3rd in the pecking order (rightly so at the time) and wanted regular football.

Summer 2007
Incoming:
Torres (stellar signing)
Babel (in hindsight a very curious signing...not really looking promising at the moment)
Lucas (see above)
Benayoun (a good squad player but more in the ilk of Zenden than Garcia, IMO)
Voronin (poor signing despite being on a free)
Plessis (a little early to judge but jury is definitely still out)
Itandje (not steady enough as back-up to Reina)

Outgoing:
Bellamy (perhaps a touch too hasty to sell?)
Cisse (arguably, the same could be said as above)
Garcia (wanted to return to Spain and may have facilitated Torres transfer)
Fowler (it was probably time but a sad day nonetheless)
Gonzalez (good move)
Dudek (would have been a better bet as back-up, IMO, but seemed to want to sit on his duff in Madrid instead)


Overall assessment: the signing of Torres perhaps distorts things a little, as the other signings have looked adequate to poor.  In hindsight, we might have been a bit hasty to part with Bellamy and/or Cisse (in terms of their on-field attributes), given what we currently have available to us as 3rd and 4th choice strikers.

January 2008
Incoming:
Skrtel (good signing)

Outgoing:
Sissoko (a good move, IMO, given Masch's arrival and the fact that Momo was unhappy on the bench)

Overall assessment: good addition to the CB ranks to solidify that position further while sacrificing a player in a position where we have strength in depth (although some will wonder if Lucas offers anything more than Sissoko).

Summer 2008
Incoming:
Keane (not really working out is it?  [But may come good.])
Riera (a good signing in a problem position)
Dossena (looks out of his depth in England)
Cavalieri (looks okay at times, dodgy at others...jury still out, IMO)
Ngog (hard to judge whether this lad was a good cheap addition or someone simply taking a subs berth away from one of our reserve strikers)
Degen (if he wasn't such a sicknote we wouldn't need to be playing our best CB at RB and we'd have a sense of what he offers)

Outgoing:
Crouch (a shame to lose but wanted regular football; still had much to offer though)
Riise (performances had definitely slipped but still better than Dossena)
Carson (wanted to go and over-rated, IMO, anyway)
Finnan (could still do with this fella in the squad)
Kewell (time to go and he left us no option anyway)
Le Tallec (good move)

Overall assessment: judged on the table, it looks like a good summer of transfers.  Judged on the new lads' contributions, however, it looks a poor set of signings, bar Riera so far.  The list of outgoing players makes even more troubling reading, as I think Crouch, Riise and Finnan would all be playing vital roles for us still had they stayed.


So, in the final analysis, I do think Rafa's transfer record is cause for some concern.  As I've said throughout this post, hindsight is of course 20/20 but the more you look back on the players we've signed in recent seasons vs. the players we've let go, the more you wonder about Rafa's plan for the squad.  Anyway, it's food for thought.

[dawson99]

bob, show me the last manager we had whose transfer policy wasn't suspect... evans?

[Bad Bob]

bob, show me the last manager we had whose transfer policy wasn't suspect... evans?

No manager has a perfect transfer record, mate, and I don't expect that of Rafa either.  My concern--and I'm certain you've said something similar in the past--is that we spend a lot of our energies each transfer window trying to swap like for like rather than building on what have or addressing perennial problem areas.  I wonder how many people would now prefer to have hung onto the likes of Morientes, Baros, Bellamy, Cisse and Crouch rather than signed the likes of Babel, Voronin, Ngog or even Kuyt and Keane?  It's easy to point at Torres as an example of a top transfer but what about some of these others?

I'm probably coming across as much more anti-Rafa than I intend in these posts, though.  I still think he's a top drawer manager who's brought us very far indeed and who has every chance of winning a title with Liverpool.  But, after another summer season of, frankly, strange transfers I'm starting to get a little worried that we're getting into a '2 steps forward, 1 step back' situation when it comes to improving the squad.  And, make no mistake, improving the squad is vital to a sustained title challenge over the coming years.

[Raffmaker]

You all take yourselves far too seriously, digging out all of this history, transfers in- transfers out, league tables, Rafa's previous record.

None of it matters, and no one cares. Using the past as a measuring stick for the future is a dangerous game.

Also, say we don't win the league this season, what will happen next season, season after and season after?

Exact same scenrario,Arsenal, Chelsea, and Man ure, and even Villa, will all be just as strong or stronger, Man City have won the jackpot. All of these clubs have got not only the cream of the Europe crop in their teams, they have also got the cream of the Europe youngsters in their academys, for at least the next five seasons we will struggle to challenge for the league, unless we strive to bring better quality in throughout.

Its so simple like 1+1=2.

It goes   Money + Quality = Title.

[Bad Bob]

You all take yourselves far too seiously, digging out all of this history, transfers in- transfers out, league tables, Rafa's previous record.

None of it matters, and no one cares. Using the past as a measuring stick for the future is a dangerous game.

Also, say we don't win the league this season, what will happen next season, season after and season after?

Exact same scenrario, , Chelsea, and Man ure will all be just as strong or stronger, Man City have won the jackpot. All of these clubs have got not only the cream of the Europe crop in their teams, they have also got the cream of the Europe youngsters in their academys, for at least the next five seasons we will struggle to challenge for the league, unless we strive to bring better quality in throughout.

Its so simple like 1+1=2.

It goes   Money + Quality = Title.

Well cheers for simplifying things for us, mate, but I think we can safely assume that everyone grasps the broad strokes you've outlined.  In fact, it would be a very boring board indeed if all anyone ever posted was "we need more money and more quality players to win the title."  Thanks for refreshing our memories, though...I'd nearly forgotten the solutions were so straightforward.