Liverpool FC Forum

[Jimmy the Weasel]

ummm ok.

That doesn't answer your question then?

Furry muff!

[GYBS]

No its fine , dont worry about it

[Leonmc0708]

An excellent take on the progression discussion from RAWK poster royhendo:

watching yesterday's game was a beautiful experience, wasn't it? i think we'd all agree it shows how far we've come under benitez.

sean ingle of the guardian did a good job of describing what Rafa and his management team inherited when they arrived in 2004...

It was only in the dry, fussy heat of mid-summer that Rafa Benítez realised quite what he was getting into at Liverpool. Throughout the early days of pre-season training he had watched, with increasing befuddlement, as his squad [admittedly without its siesta-ing Euro 2004 stars] utterly failed to master some of the most basic drills he'd used at Valencia.

Benítez, one of the game's realists, knew that rebuilding Liverpool would take time. But he wasn't quite expecting the football equivalent of Scrapheap Challenge.

That was in the summer of 2004, and four years of hard graft later, we're starting to see signs of what happens when a talented group of people are allowed to do the job they're passionate about. Don't get me wrong - i'm of the firm belief that this talented group have been undermined at almost every turn by those who pull the strings behind the scenes. But somehow, by force of sheer will on the part of a few talented men - staff and players both - we're starting to see interesting signs emerge...

let me restate that, because I want to make the point crystal clear...

we're STARTING to see interesting signs emerge.

four and a bit years of hard graft has taken us from where we were then to where we are now, but when your timeline is (potentially) 20 or more years at the helm of a sporting project, it's safe to say things have only really just begun.

to paraphrase private joker from full metal jacket:

"Graduation is only a few days away and the salty recruits... are ready to eat their own guts and then ask for seconds."

we're now reaching a stage where, even without the urgings of Gunnary Sgt Benitez, the group is ready to go to war. but as rafa said recently, we've only really put the foundations in place (when he said he felt we'd reached a stage comparable to when he first arrived at Valencia - i'll stick the quote in here presently - i just haven't found it yet).

with that in mind, i reckon it's a good time to revisit pako's two interviews for the official site in 2006. looking back on them, his comments hinted at what the staff felt were the minimum standards for a credible push on all fronts.

when you read through the quotes below, have a think about how things have changed - how pako might have answered the questions were he still here and things were as they are now... and when you read his answers, ask yourself if there are parallels to be drawn between where we are now, and where Chelsea and Man United were a few seasons ago.

---

first up, a few snippets from the 'controversial' interview before the athens final.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news....105.htm

What positives will you take from your third Premier League season, and what have you learned?

The positives are that in our direct confrontations with the other top four sides, we have been closer than last year. The only game we have been far away from winning was the match at The Emirates. We have won at home against Chelsea and Arsenal. The negatives, or the things we've learned? I think we have made the same mistakes as a team and as a club. I think still we are not ready to fight for the Premier League. You have to be realistic: if you want to be a winner, if you want to be first, you have to take all your decisions with this target in mind. Sometimes maybe we still are not close, as a squad and as a club as well. It's not a coincidence that Liverpool haven't won the league in 17 years.

...

Were you surprised to see United overhaul Chelsea this season?

Not really. After three or four games, I said it could happen. There are two really important reasons for me. Firstly, they built a team over two or three years and then realised they were close. If you want to win the Premier League, you have to realise you are close and you are capable of winning. Then, when you are close, your self-confidence starts to build. Years ago a cyclist said to me, I want to win just one race. How was he going to win one race when he hadn't even been in the first 10 in any race?

Are you saying Liverpool aren't at that stage yet?

No, maybe we are not. Still we have finished too far from them to think we have a real possibility to win the Premier League. Manchester United didn't need to sign too many players this year. They bought Carrick, and if you look at the starting 11 they played against us this year and last, the only difference is Carrick and no van Nistelrooy. Eighty or 90 per cent of the key players were already in the team. All these things are the first reason for me why Manchester won the league. The second reason is they have used the rotation policy better than Chelsea. I remember three or four games when Manchester played with five, six or seven changes. Playing with Fletcher on the right instead of Ronaldo or with Brown at centre-back. Chelsea haven't done that.

United have won the league by outscoring teams. While Liverpool have once again been excellent at the back, is it the case that we need to score more goals?

One of our main problems is that, when you compare with the other top four teams, we haven't really scored too many goals. This is not the mistake just of the strikers. It's also for the midfielders, and also our defenders could sometimes have supported the attack better. We haven't been as aggressive going forward as we have in defending. United have also been really effective in wide areas. There are not many world-class wide players, and United have Giggs and Ronaldo. For me, Chelsea were more effective when they had Duff and Robben. With Liverpool, we have been without Harry Kewell all season. He has this kind of quality.

Alex Ferguson has stated that one of the reasons they won the league is because they got off to such a fantastic start. Liverpool didn't get out of the blocks as quickly, why do you think that was?

The fixtures we had at the beginning of the season were really tough, and we had them while our team was still coming together. Players needed to settle here, to learn how each other played, to get in the dressing room and join with the players already here. We didn't get our level until late November.

Another thing that's clear from this campaign is that Liverpool's home form has been excellent, yet points have been harder to come by on the road. What do you think is behind this?

I remember a coach in Spain once said that Spanish girls in the 1970s and 1980s were brought up not to be on their own, but to always have someone with them. They were educated to be part of a family, not on their own. They were educated to be married and be with the children of her husband. I think something similar has happened with our team. Liverpool is the team that more than any other feels the difference when they play away. The support they feel when they play at home is so huge and important that when they play away, the difference is massive. When Chelsea play in Stamford Bridge, the Chelsea players don't really feel the support of the crowd, so the difference is not massive for them. One thing the players have to learn is to compete and have the self-confidence independent of the supporters. You need the right mental attitude when the conditions are not comfortable. It's a psychological attitude that's so important.

---

Now, casting further back into the mists of time, here's another interview from january that year...

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news....706.htm

Chelsea are the team that we have to catch though. How do you see Liverpool and Chelsea at the moment?
 
"You have to look at the big picture and although we have to believe that we can catch Chelsea this season, I think that the poor start to the season may have cost us from catching them this year. The gap opened up in the early months because we drew too many games. We did not concede many goals but we were not scoring many either. We still have to play Chelsea and we have two games in hand on them but although we could catch them, the odds are against us. Even if we won every game from now until the end of the season, that might not be enough because Chelsea have to slip up in a big way and I would be very surprised if Chelsea do that."
 
Despite winning the Champions League last season, is it true you weren't happy with what the club achieved during your first season in England?
 
"That's true because the best team is usually the team that wins the league and we were nowhere near the best team over the course of the season. The team that wins the Premier League in England must be consistent throughout the season and consistency means you have a very good team. Until we win the Premier League, I will not be totally satisfied. The most important thing for Liverpool is definitely to win the Premier League.
 
What mark out of ten would you give the team for the 2004/05 season?
 
"If we had not won the Champions League, I think a five because we were poor in the league. In the Champions League we were beating the big teams and playing well but in the league we were struggling against some teams that were not as good as what we were facing in Europe. When you try to rest players and then you get beat, it means you do not have a great squad. At Valencia we would often rest players and the level would still be the same. That is what we want to get here at Liverpool."
 
Do you think that is finally beginning to happen this season?
 
"When we arrived at the club, we had some players at a very good age and the players are improving every year. Only with this improvement can we get a team good enough to challenge. I think that this improvement in a lot of players is a major reason why the club is doing well in all competitions this year."
 
When we speak to the players, they always tell us how much they enjoy themselves in training. Have you been surprised to how well the players here have taken to your coaching techniques?
 
"I think that this season they have more belief in us and are more convinced about what we are doing and trying to achieve. You can see in training that the things that they are doing are the right things to be successful. The most important thing is not to win; it's to prepare yourself to have the capacity to win. It is not about wanting to do something; it is simply having the capacity to do what you want. Then, and only then, can you achieve your goals but to do this, you need to work very hard."
 
Was that a hard message to get over to the players - that this is a long-term thing?
 
"You can never start any project without long-term goals because you have to have aims to build towards. Ok, we want to win the Premier League, but are we are doing enough as a club and as a squad to soon be first in the Premier League? It is not good enough simply wanting to win it. Everybody wants to win the title but we will soon be ready to do this."
 
The long-term goal not to win just one title but to win title after title and lots of European Cups, I guess?
 
"Yes definitely but to win a lot of Premier Leagues, you need to win the first. If we don't have the capacity to win one title, how will we win a lot? First we need to have the capacity to win one then we will win many more. That's why it's a long-term plan."
 
At Valencia, you were given the task of overhauling Barcelona and Real Madrid. At Liverpool, the idea is to overhaul Chelsea, Manchester United and Arsenal. Do you think the task in England is more difficult because Chelsea actually do the one thing that neither Madrid or Barcelona ever did and that's defend?
 
"Yes but it is more difficult for two reasons. The first is at Valencia the squad was very good when we arrived. Valencia had been in the Champions League final twice before we arrived so obviously there was a good squad and, more importantly, there were two good players for each position. At Liverpool, there was not a winning team. They had only won the treble four years before but were not too good in the Champions League and often ended up in the Uefa cup. The first thing we did was to build the squad. Then, like at Chelsea when Mourinho came and brought personality to the team and made it clear what he expected, we had to show the players the attitude to win. At Liverpool, when we arrived, the team did not know where they were going or how they would win things. It wasn't only Chelsea though; Manchester United and Arsenal knew what they wanted and the style they would play and that is what we had to do at Liverpool."
 
What did you think of the players' fitness and skill levels when you came to the club?
 
"I think that the English game is a lot different to the rest of Europe because you play a lot more games and don't have a break. Instead, at Christmas, you actually play more games than any other tine of year! I think that this has an influence on the players' levels of fitness and skill and we tried to change this. The players now realise the great importance of our training. When we first came, the players were very focused for matches but not for training. If we are doing the right things in training we will benefit in the end. Like I have already said, the most important thing is to have the capacity to win. Sometimes when a player is rested for matches and trains very hard, then the next time they play, they say that they played a lot better and felt very fit.

I think that no matter how fit players think they are, the same eleven can't play every game. Players' attitudes to training was the same at Valencia at first in that some players were not focused on the training, just on the matches. For me, training is the most important thing. Now the players understand how important the training is and sometimes players come to me and say that they have played too much and need to train. When they say this, you know they truly understand."

---

now. for me these two interviews possibly flesh out rafa's recent comments on the quality of this year's squad - a nice balance, sufficient depth, and a similar standard to the one he and pako inherited at valencia. but underpinning all this is the group's mentality.

pundits and posters on here sometimes talk along the lines that the togetherness and fighting spirit we've seen so far this season are a new thing that's appeared overnight, or that sammy's arrival has been the catalyst, and so forth.

personally i think it's a natural development based on the expectations of the management as a group since 2004 - that of unflinching professionalism.

some more quotes from pako based on the first interview...

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/features/2007/may/FN11527070522-1105.htm

Looking again at Rafa's rotation policy, how hard is it for you to motivate players when they're not playing week in, week out?

It's difficult with players who are not professional enough. If they are professional, they realise there are reasons they are not in the team. I try to get them focused on the reasons. They shouldn't use excuses. If someone is not in the squad, it's because there are things he has to improve. The way to motivate the players is to get them to look long-term and change the reasons they are not in the squad. They have to look at themselves. 

a little later...

If you had to sum up your philosophy on coaching in one sentence, what would you say?

I can do it in just one word: professionalism. I think this word covers the most important things you do day by day.

Finally Pako, if there was one thing you could change about football, what would it be?

The lack of professionalism.

At Liverpool or in general?

In general. There are too many examples. One thing is, I can't understand when people say, 'There's nothing new to be found in football, everything has been discovered, so there is no point in analysing things.' To take the right decisions, you need to analyse a lot; you need to control of lot of data. This takes a lot of hours. As well, something I hate is when the players don't realise they lead a privileged life. They have a big responsibility to the supporters. They have to work hard not just for themselves, but for the club and the supporters who follow them everywhere. Sometimes when people say they are doing everything they can, it is not true. You can always push yourself a little bit more.

that attitude percolates down through the playing staff. in-fighting and political bickering is a worrying distraction behind the scenes, but ultimately the tone has to be set correctly from the top, and one by one we've added players who embody this kind of professionalism and maturity (coupled with youth).

---

One last (and debatable) point, possibly relevant to the idea that the senior players are almost ready to graduate from basic training...

if you have the pleasure of watching either of the last two games again, you'll notice evidence of the players coaching each other on the pitch (for example at Chelsea, gerrard's gesture to keane seconds into the game and kuyt's words to babel as he came came on, and at Atletico, Alonso directing Dossena, and Riera and Dossena discussing how their interaction should work on the pitch).

it's something to keep an eye on. a squad that coaches each other based on the manager's guidelines is a powerful thing. it also presumes that the players trust each other and are happy to rely on each other. sure, we have gerrard berating riera for not crossing when he shot near stick, and Babel giving Masch an earful late on when he could have done better in the Chelsea box, but i'm not talking about these situations. i'm talking about the players giving each other the kind of direction we usually see rafa giving them from the side of the park.

it's probably my imagination (cos i'm looking for signs of growth to fit my theories) and we've probably seen the players doing this kind of thing week in and week out since 2004, but for me there's a different feel about it all at the moment. we have our manager admitting that the performance was 'almost perfect' - something i've only heard him saying once - after Marseille away last year.

when your side's report card gets an A- from the gaffer, is it safe to say the players have started getting their head around his ideas? are they coaching each other more, and in the proper encouraging spirit?

[Judge]

??? Positive attitude to the game ? in what way has he not had a positive attitude towards the game ?

I've explained this at the top of this page in a post I made the other day.

that post you refer to at the top of this page was today, not the other day?

fgs, get the grammatical structure correct

[Sabre]

Leonmc in that post you bring, which I broadly agree, the poster says how we all see how far we've come under Benitez.

The following post isn't written by a newkit member, but was brought from TLW in *September 2008*

I know this is a highly emotive subject, but it shouldn’t be beyond fellow Reds to debate it without resorting to abuse. Aside from loving the club, the universal theme amongst almost everyone on this issue is that they like Rafa as a bloke. Why then can’t people recognise that those Reds who are critical of his management are not grinding some personal axe? There isn’t a Red alive who doesn’t love the bloke for Istanbul; does anyone think it’s possible to feel that way but also make an unfair assessment of his overall record in charge? I don’t. Let’s cut out the abuse eh, boys?

I began to doubt Rafa roughly this time two years ago as I saw him repeating many of the same mistakes he’s already made. To my mind, there are several areas for which he is deserving of criticism. None of them can be explained away by the ownership issue, in my view, and I see all of them in the context of an expectation that Liverpool Football Club must put in a credible challenge for the league every season.

Now the apologists inevitably nit pick over that criterion, but it should be interpreted as (relatively) loosely and fair-mindedly as you like. I think we should be getting a roughly improving points tally each year (give or take a minor blip), rather than regressing, ultimately finishing within a couple of matches’ difference of the winners at the end. We should be talking about maybe two draws and a defeat being the dividing line rather than 20 points when all’s told, and the 82 point record should be seen as both a precedent and a benchmark.

So, those are my criteria and they’re not dependent upon matching the spending of the big two. I wouldn’t mind, but as I said, he’s already measured up to what I’m looking for in his second season. Against that context, I believe Rafa has consistently made numerous errors of judgement:

1. He is obsessed with rotation to the point of disrupting both individual and team performances. There is a ton of what I would regard as evidence for this, but I’m not going to bother citing any here. Basically, I think too many times we’ve seen players go out on the pitch and look like total strangers to each other, as well as fall short of their own individual best. Rotation is an essential element of top class football now, but it should be used far less liberally than it has been under Rafa. I’m most dubious about its use in defence and it worries me that the last season or so has seen him begin to deploy the policy there too after being previously more circumspect.

2. Because of the above issue (and the changing tactics mentioned later on), he has signed dozens of players who were never good enough to improve the first team. So what if he moves some of them on for a profit? There is still the money that has gone out of the club’s pockets in agents’ fees that was needlessly spent. And besides, the priority is to improve the team, not the balance sheet (this was going on way before The came near the club).

There have been a number of players who have been broadly good signings, but the only ones I consider to have unequivocally proven their first team quality are Reina, Agger, Alonso, Mascherano, Torres and Crouch - and at least two of those would have some Reds quibbling and a third has been injured for going on half his time here. Beyond them, there have been other decent signings and a couple could still prove their brilliance, but how many were dramatically better than those they replaced?

The bottom line is that Rafa has, with very few exceptions, spread the money too thin - and often at the expense of Academy/youth players. No-one can yet argue that a youngster has left the club to prove him wrong (Ste Warnock would be stretching the term “youngster”), but I don’t see why he has to sign so many 4th or even 5th choice players on contracts that will exceed those of the young lads and simultaneously impede their possible development. If all you want of a 4th/5th choice is someone to “do a job” a mere handful of times a season, why can’t that player be a youngster?

Quantity over quality is a flawed policy and one that is still being employed.

3. He is obsessed with changing things in almost every area of his job. He uses players out of position too many times. Lucas on the left, Kuyt on the right of a 4 (or even a three), Yossi on the left, Xabi too deep, Keane on the left, I could go on and on and on as those are only examples from the five games of this season. How can he possibly think these players are better than specialists for those roles? And if he doesn’t, why has he not signed specialists yet? He has had four years to do so, after all.

Similarly, he has ditched systems that work (Crouch as the fulcrum in the 2nd season to accommodate Kuyt and apparently 4231 this season) to no discernable advantage, and players who still have plenty to give, at least relative to many of those who remain.

4. He is tactically too cautious. Too many people interpret this criticism as a call for reckless and naive football, or else they attempt to diminish it by picking holes in the tactics used by the clubs who have consistently finished above us. Is there anyone who can deny that Rafa seems more concerned about avoiding defeat rather than going for the win, though? The fact is that a win and a defeat gives you a point more than two draws - and we’ve had too many of them under Rafa.

5. His personal relationships are fraught with conflict and create extra tension for the club and team. In terms of players, Crouch and Alonso have been poorly treated in my view, both to the possible detriment of the team. He has also had detrimental public arguments with his bosses, coaches and colleagues in The Academy. The fact that his stance in some of these may be justified, doesn’t mean it is in his or the club’s best interests to play them out in public. Am I alone in being reminded of the boy who cried wolf in relation to the quit threats?

In short, I don’t think Rafa is going to achieve what I regard as the minimum requirement for this season and I don’t think he will have recourse to any explanation beyond his own decision making. The thing that is so frustrating is that if he’d stop over-complicating absolutely everything, he actually has the players to beat that 82 point record. In my view he should play the 4231 system with these players (despite the question marks that exist about the fullbacks and Babel):

Reina

Arbeloa Carra Agger Dossena

Xabi The Chief

Gerrard Keane Babel

Torres

The front four should be given the freedom to play fluidly in terms of their positions, the full backs encouraged to push right on (albeit not recklessly), Xabi given licence to dictate the play and The Chief told to sit and protect the centre halves. A high defensive line should be held with Pepe able to sweep up behind and a high tempo employed in an aggressive manner. He would then have some great options from the bench in those who remain - maybe not to change a game (although I think Yossi and Dirk could be much more effective players if used in the hole and centrally, respectively), but certainly to allow the first teamers to have a rest.

Loads of people will call my criticism unfairly premature, but I can’t see our position in terms of either the results or performances of a five game-old season; I see it in the context of a tenure in its fifth year. What I want is very simple and I think both Rafa and the players are equiped to deliver it. However, I don’t think it will happen because Rafa will over-complicate everything as outlined above and if we fall short, I will want to see a change in manager at the end of the season.

I really and truly hope that I am wrong and that Rafa can deliver in the league. I’m not saying that to placate those with the opposing view or to sound like “a good Red”; I’m saying it because, despite his faults, I really like Rafa and I want to see him succeed.

Come on Rafa, lad!!!

Paul

Ripped from TLW

If you look at what's highlighted, this poster has a lot of doubts of Rafa's reign after 5 years, he has doubts about the progress. You still can see the lad talks about Benitez with respect and wishes him well, but when it comes to analyse the key points of Rafa's management, he doesn't only criticise rotation, but also Rafa being too cautious, his signings, his relationship with the club's staff etc.

This poster in September didn't see much progress did he?

I doubt that someone who's that unconvinced in September has dispelled all the doubts at the end of October, so, I'd wait a couple of months to say something like "we all agree how far we've come so far".

[Madmax]

Rafa is starting to understand how much the premiership means to the fans. More concentration in prem i hope will give us a good chance this year. Would like torres to stay injury free aswel. 

[Leonmc0708]

Leonmc in that post you bring, which I broadly agree, the poster says how we all see how far we've come under Benitez.

The following post isn't written by a newkit member, but was brought from TLW in *September 2008*

I believe Rafa has consistently made numerous errors of judgement:

1. He is obsessed with rotation to the point of disrupting both individual and team performances.

2. Because of the above issue (and the changing tactics mentioned later on), he has signed dozens of players who were never good enough to improve the first team.

The bottom line is that Rafa has, with very few exceptions, spread the money too thin -
Quantity over quality is a flawed policy and one that is still being employed.

3. He is obsessed with changing things in almost every area of his job.

5. His personal relationships are fraught with conflict and create extra tension for the club and team.

Am I alone in being reminded of the boy who cried wolf in relation to the quit threats?

In short, I don’t think Rafa is going to achieve what I regard as the minimum requirement for this season and I don’t think he will have recourse to any explanation beyond his own decision making.

Loads of people will call my criticism unfairly premature, but I can’t see our position in terms of either the results or performances of a five game-old season; I see it in the context of a tenure in its fifth year. What I want is very simple and I think both Rafa and the players are equiped to deliver it. However, I don’t think it will happen because Rafa will over-complicate everything as outlined above and if we fall short, I will want to see a change in manager at the end of the season.

If you look at what's highlighted, this poster has a lot of doubts of Rafa's reign after 5 years, he has doubts about the progress. You still can see the lad talks about Benitez with respect and wishes him well, but when it comes to analyse the key points of Rafa's management, he doesn't only criticise rotation, but also Rafa being too cautious, his signings, his relationship with the club's staff etc.

This poster in September didn't see much progress did he?

I doubt that someone who's that unconvinced in September has dispelled all the doubts at the end of October, so, I'd wait a couple of months to say something like "we all agree how far we've come so far".

I disagree about the respect in that I think its clearly ap iece written by someone who does not agree wiwth Rafa's methods or thinking who has written a piece so as to portray himself as being subjective.

I have deleted the flowering to get to the crux of his points, and these alone tell me he is not a fan. I felt this when I read that when Saint posted it.

[Jimmy the Weasel]

??? Positive attitude to the game ? in what way has he not had a positive attitude towards the game ?

I've explained this at the top of this page in a post I made the other day.

that post you refer to at the top of this page was today, not the other day?

fgs, get the grammatical structure correct

Schwein!!!

[Number 9]

Im sick hearing people say its one thing or the other that is the reason that we are starting to look like a serious team that can contend!
Its way too simplistic to say we are looking better because Rafa is rotating less.Im sure the more settled starting eleven is a factor in our success but there are many other reasons too.
The teams collective mentality seems to be in a place it has never been under Rafa.Just look at the times we have went behind and refused to be defeated already this season.Whether or not we should be behind in these games in the first place has nothing to do with it.Its hard to come from 1 behind and win and a hell of a lot harder to come from 2 behind and win in this League!It takes a hell of a lot of effort and belief to do it,its great to see we are capable although its hard on the nerves to watch!
Another factor is the born again Xabi Alonso,he's been fantastic this season.Anyone that still argues that he was at his best in the last two years needs their head looked at.I said in the summer that I felt he took his place for granted and was not giving 100%.I still believe that and TBH Im glad that Rafa tried to sell him because as a result we have the old Xabi back,at his best hes a class act and a massive influence on the team!
Thank fu'ck we never signed Barry now though,the whole long drawn affair has given Alonso a new lease of life and he looks like a player that is fighting for his right in the team,every game!Keep it up Xabi.
Albert Reira is another part of it too IMO.He's in a different league altogether compaired to anything we have had on the left in a very long time.He's made a great impact and theres a lot more to come from him.Its hard to believe the moans and groans on here in the summer.Its obvious now that most were judging him on what they heard,or just going with the general consensus that he "is not good enough for LFC".I think he's proved already he has what it takes.Maybe people will wait next time before they make their minds up.Its blatantly obvious that 80% on here knew fu'ck all about him but judged him prematurely for the simple reason that he was not a household name!

Im sure there are a lot of other reasons too,its not one or two factors.Its a lot of different things all coming together.
Overall I get the feeling that for the first time in years the players and manager believe they can win it.Gerrard and Carra had said in previous years that we were a couple of players short.I think now they feel that they have the right players around them and believe they can be up there at the end,they believe they can do it and its spreading through the squad!I think the difference is that in other seasons the mentality was"we may be in with a chance" but deep down they knew we were'nt really good enough!Now it looks like the truely think they can challenge!
Of course the manager and players will say its too early,one game at a time,theres a long way to go and all the rest.More to take the pressure off themselves than anything else.I reckon in their hearts they feel this can be our year!No one ever won the League without believing they could do it.

[Igor Zidane]

The sole reason we are playing better and winning games ,is because Dawsonio hasn't posted since the start of the season . FACT.

[Number 9]

The sole reason we are playing better and winning games ,is because Dawsonio hasn't posted since the start of the season . FACT.

True,he turned his back on LFC and began to follow Spurs!
Look what he's done to them....Dawson is the devil!




Only joking Dawson as we all know you are on here appearing offline anyway!

[account deleted by request]

If I had to pick 10 things I didn't like about Rafa's management before this season.

1/ Too defensive in outlook

2/ too many poor or average buys

3/ strange formations that never seemed to work

4/Rotation .... too much and too many

5/Strange subs .... seemed more interested in not losing a game than actually winning it.

6/Man management..... rarely praised players especially Gerrard and didn't seem capable of raising a teams spirits after a poor result. Blips became bliiiiips and players that lost form hardly ever seemed to recover it. We often looked like a team that lacked heart for the fight in the league.

7/Seemed to be using the press to further HIS own agenda rather than what was best for Liverpool fc.

8/seemed to fall out with too many people, including people who had long and distinguished service with the club.

9/Styling .....seemed at times more interested in showing how clever he was rather than picking a team that would win the game.

10/seemed to be taking one step back for every two steps forward..... progress too slow and littered with unnecessary errors.

This season so far......I still think number 2 and number 8 need work but so far he seems to have addressed my other concerns, with number 6 still open to question.

Hopefully this won't be seen as a knocking post but I don't really give that much of a chance on here.

Personally I would take reducing 10 concerns down to 2 possibly 3 as major progress........so far. Whether any of the others come back to bite us in the a$$ only time will tell.

[bigmick]

If I had to pick 10 things I didn't like about Rafa's management before this season.

1/ Too defensive in outlook

2/ too many poor or average buys

3/ strange formations that never seemed to work

4/Rotation .... too much and too many

5/Strange subs .... seemed more interested in not losing a game than actually winning it.

6/Man management..... rarely praised players especially Gerrard and didn't seem capable of raising a teams spirits after a poor result. Blips became bliiiiips and players that lost form hardly ever seemed to recover it. We often looked like a team that lacked heart for the fight in the league.

7/Seemed to be using the press to further HIS own agenda rather than what was best for Liverpool fc.

8/seemed to fall out with too many people, including people who had long and distinguished service with the club.

9/Styling .....seemed at times more interested in showing how clever he was rather than picking a team that would win the game.

10/seemed to be taking one step back for every two steps forward..... progress too slow and littered with unnecessary errors.

This season so far......I still think number 2 and number 8 need work but so far he seems to have addressed my other concerns, with number 6 still open to question.

Hopefully this won't be seen as a knocking post but I don't really give that much of a chance on here.

Personally I would take reducing 10 concerns down to 2 possibly 3 as major progress........so far. Whether any of the others come back to bite us in the a$$ only time will tell.

Brilliant post that S@int, I would have agreed with pretty much all of that based on the last few seasons with the possible exception of the buying, I think in the main he's bought well. Where I would agree is that in the past there have been far too many "options" and "possibilities" as opposed to genuine first team speacialists.

When we signed Riera I was dead against it (wrong again) but the only aspect of the transfer which I thought was a good thing was that we were buying a bloke who plays left midfield to play left midfield. We also bought a bloke who we expected to slot straight into the first team which was too much of a novelty.

Generally though, I agree with all your points and it's a good post. I also agree with the bit about people seeing it as negative, I'll be very surprised if you don't cop a bit of stick for it    .

[GYBS]

Can see where you are coming from saint with pretty much most of that . What about what you think Rafa has done right over the seasons mate ?

p.s no not knocking saints post .

[Sabre]

They're big enough to stick to their thoughts when the situation changes, which is nice. I respect that and I didn't expect anything else. So, no one can tell them what they're talking about because they've explained their respective points thoroughly.

In the past more often than now I was called a happy clapper, as if the ones who trust Rafa hadn't concerns.

Well, I too had concerns. I had concerns about the wings, especially the left one, I was worried that while Benitez had built a strong midfield and secured the CB's future with Skrtel and Agger, we had signed too many strikers that eventually didn't stay for good.

So, I, a happy clapper, also had concerns. And my concerns and Mick's are as respectable.

But the question is, besides the concerns, and the bad sides of his management, what about what he has done well? hasn't he brought another world class player besides Gerrard? Hasn't he brought Mascherano, a massive success? Doesn't mean winning in Stamford Bridge that the team that he has built is strong?

And the big question, putting in the balance the concerns and the good things, would we put an offer on Rafa's table to renew the contract?

I would.