Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

Longest Serving Managers (English Leagues)

1. 1983 Dario Gradi (Crewe Alexandra)
2. 1986 Alex Ferguson (Man Utd)
3. 1991 Alan Curbishley (Charlton Athletic)
4. 1996 Barry Fry (Peterborough Utd)
5. 1996 Arsene Wenger (Arsenal)
6. 1997 Brian Laws (Scunthorpe Utd)
7. 1997 Brian Talbot (Rushden & Diamonds)
8. 1997 Ronnie Moore (Rotherham Utd)
9. 1998 Stan Ternant (Burnley)
10. 1998 Gerard Houllier (Liverpool)
11. 1999 Brian Horton (Port Vale)
12. 1999 Bobby Robson (Newcastle Utd)
13. 1999 Sam Allardyce (Bolton Wanderers)
14. 1999 Neil Warnock (Sheff Utd)



Every other manager has started post-2000. Of those 14 managers who were appointed pre-2000, FIVE are Premiership managers which is quite impressive (25% of all Premiership managers). Both Charlton and Bolton have been relegated under their managers yet they are still in charge.

This begs the question - how long should a manager get?There are several things that could happen (in terms of league status) -

1) The club improves, either to stay at a higher level than before or to win promotion or league titles. We will not consider this because obviously you wouldn't get rid of the manager until such a time as the situation changed

2) The club gets worse, either dropping down the league or suffering relegation. We will not consider this either as the manager is liable to be sacked. If the club sticks with the manager then sees an upturn in fortunes, the manager will be in a different category again

3) The club stays were it was and no real advancement is made. While the club may have dropped a few places or gained a few places, the club has stagnated and no longer going anywhere

So how long do you give a manager when the club is "going nowhere" in the league under his reign?[/color]

[JBG]

I think Man UTD showed amazing faith in Alex Ferguson but that isn't an arguement for holding onto Houllier.

I distinctly remember Man UTD fans being in extreme pain in 1989 and 1990 as Ferguson's signings flopped and his team were a joke. However, after they won the FA Cup in 1990 there was a definite turn around as the team spectacularly improved in the league. It still took them a couple more seasons to win the league, but every season they were a season better.

My point about Man UTD and Ferguson is that once they got through their bad patch they improved dramatically and continued to improve, i.e. it was an upward curve.

I'm not being sour about Man UTD (ok, maybe I am) but it cannot be denied that a major factor of Ferguson's success was the fall of Liverpool and the drink and gambling problems at Arsenal in the early 1990s. Think about it. I don't care what Man UTD fans say, but their Championship winnign side of 1993 and 1994 were middling teams when compared (in my opinion) to the Liverpool sides of 1988 and 1990 and the Arsenal sides of 1989 and 1991. Man UTD in 1993 effectively had no opposition: the previous Champions Leeds (probably the poorest side to win the Championship since the war) were nearly relegated, Arsenal got bogged down in cups (these were the days before big squads) and Souness' experiment at Liverpool wetre backfiring spectacularly. You could almost say that Man UTD won by default, given that their main challengers were Norwich and Aston Villa.

Of course, when UTD finally broke their duck and won the league they had some fantastic players and teams in the 1990s and went from strength to strength.

My point is that Ferguson was helped by Arsenal and Man UTD's problems in the early to mid 1990s. Houllier has a fair greater task in that there are three teams which are currently very strong. The league is 10 times stronger now than in 1993: in my opinion the Liverpool of 2004 under Gerard Houllier is probably a better side than Ferguson's team of 1993 and probably also of 1994, its just that the goal posts have changed since then.

[Starbridge42]

Well if any team looks likely to make a real upward curve its not Liverpool.  We're in 3) but we are going backwards gradually rather than moving up and down and on average still in the same spot.

[JBG]

Well if any team looks likely to make a real upward curve its not Liverpool.  We're in 3) but we are going backwards gradually rather than moving up and down and on average still in the same spot.

We were 5th last time I looked and its been a while since we've been any higher.

3rd?

We wish! 

[RedSi]

Go on Starbridge42, I'll let you point it out.........

[Owzat]

Well if any team looks likely to make a real upward curve its not Liverpool.  We're in 3) but we are going backwards gradually rather than moving up and down and on average still in the same spot.

We were 5th last time I looked and its been a while since we've been any higher.

3rd?

We wish! 

I think he meant category 3) - going nowhere

3) The club stays were it was and no real advancement is made. While the club may have dropped a few places or gained a few places, the club has stagnated and no longer going anywhere

[Owzat]

Surely it is no coincidence that the top three Premiership teams over the last five years have been Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool. In that time we have won four cups but no league. Wenger has won the DOUBLE twice in his seven year reign. Ferguson is a major exception to the rule, only two Premiership managers have had more time than Houllier and the rest have spent nothing like we have on players (pre-Abrahamovic). Had Houllier only spent £10m - £15m a season then we could argue for more time, but that isn't the case. Ferguson's ridiculous spending has only really kicked in since they fluked the (you don't have to be) Champions League and Ferguson has become obsessed with winning it for a second time. I wonder how much Ferguson spent in this "first five years" that everyone compares with Houllier. Even if you allow for the inflated prices these days I doubt he spent anything like what Houllier has

[JBG]

Sorry Stabridge, I take it back....

(I guess I got carried away by when you said Heskey plays for Senegal in another post....that was you wasn't it?)  

[big al]

You guys keep using ferguson as an example but that's unfair.  Fergie had to rebuild everything about Man U.  They were the biggest sleeping giant about.  He actually created one of the best scouting and youth systems in British Football,  Look at the players he developed as youths, this area was supposed to be Houlliers strength.  Houllier took over a club that Roy Evans had created after Souness, Evans should have got a blooby medal, and remember Evans had brought Owen Carragher and McManaman Gerrard through the Academy. He perhaps was'nt the best Manager about but Roy Evans took over a club coming to terms with two of the worst disasters in football, Hysel and Hillsbrough.  This club was suffering from major trauma and Evans the last of the boot room boys build it up again and got the team playing again.  turth is Houllier inherited what he had built added good players here and there and won 3 trophies in won year.  Since that season Houllier has added more and more players till the product we have today is totally his team.  Is it what you thought you were going to get, My answer no!  People talk about Houllier the Gentleman, A true gentleman left Anfield when Roy Evans left yes he had taken the team as far as he could but so did Houllier A year ago!

[Owzat]

I guess everyone compares Houllier with Ferguson because so few managers get so long. While some may bleat on about Liverpool "not sacking managers", we have still had 3 since 1991 (about one every four years). The comparison with Ferguson is a joke really, does anyone expect Houllier to turn it round and deliver about half a dozen league titles in the next 10 years? Wenger is the true comparison, although he has had slightly longer he achieved much more in his first five years than Houllier.

Arsene Wenger vs Gerard Houllier

League Titles - Wenger 2-0 Houllier
Runners-Up - Wenger 4-1 Houllier
FA Cups - Wenger 2-1 Houllier
League Cups - Wenger 0-2 Houllier
UEFA Cups - Wenger 0-1 Houllier

Total - Wenger 7-4 Houllier

And that isn't taking into account the relative status of each trophy/achievement. If I were to allocate status to each of the achievements, I'd go with : -

League Title - 7 pts*
Runners-Up - 3 pts
FA Cup - 3 pts
UEFA Cup - 2 pts
League Cup - 1 pts

*There is no real comparison between league titles and cups, I could give the league anywhere between 20 pts and 50 pts but that would make comparison rather pointless

Ratings - Wenger 32-10 Houllier

[supersub]

I have to agree with owzhat on the comparison with Wenger/Houllier,and GH has had considerably more money.

[Starbridge42]

Sorry Stabridge, I take it back....

(I guess I got carried away by when you said Heskey plays for Senegal in another post....that was you wasn't it?)  

its all cool. 

EDIT: Oh yeah I did say heskey plays for Senegal... no idea why though