Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

Just going back to this new system we used yesterday, I thought I'd start a new thread to get people's thoughts on it, rather than having to trawl through the official match thread. As i said yesterday, it looked like a 3-4-3 formation to me and I quite liked it.

Positives

Maybe it's mainly based on the result, but we looked very solid and they couldn't cope with the extra width which we had. Considering we're not exactly renowned for our width, it was great to see Warnock and Kromkamp bombing forward and providing the width we have been missing in recent weeks. Bring Finnan and Riise back into the team (Riise imo is a natural wingback) and we'll be even stronger using this system.

Another great thing about it is we get more strength in the air with the 3 central defenders plus I actually think that it gives Gerrard a bit more freedom in the central midfield area. Although I think a better team might have caused us problems with the system, I think it's good that we can see a team will struggle against us and we were able to exploit it. In many ways it makes a change to change our formation in order to cause problems, whenever we've changed formation recently it has been in order to contain, so i like it.

Also, can someone confirm, but i thought we changed to 3 at the back when we played at St James' last year and looked very shaky (obviously pelle had a part in that) but i thought the centre backs looked quality yesterday despite the fact that Carra's nowhere near his best in recent weeks. I actually put a post on about this formation a while back and I would like to see us give it another few go's before the end of the season. My main gripe with us playing 4-4-2 is that we haven't got natural wingers. Kewell prefers to come inside as does Riise and Garcia just isn't a winger. Cisse will always look to cut in as well. If we keep the play in the middle of the park it opens up the flanks, look at the positions Warnock and Kromkamp were getting themselves into yesterday. I really feel there is a lot of potential in this formation.   



Negatives

However this is not to say that it was all positive and in the long term I can't see this system working and here's why:

I've thought for a while that 3 at the back might be a way of constructing a central midfield which suits Gerrard's play and it might well be an option for certain games or if we're chasing a game but the Mancs or Chelsea would have torn us apart out wide yesterday. 

A few people suggested when we bought Kromkamp (a wing-back) and Agger (a ball playing left sides centre back) that this formation might be in his thinking. Infact if you look at the players and targets for next season, i.e Gonzalez and Simao in the kewell and Cisse role, it could be something Rafa wants to refine and play in the long term. 

I also can't think of any teams who play three at the back and have actually won anything. 3-4-3 could work well at Anfield but 3 at the back dosent work against the best teams just ask Roy Evans. My other main gripe about 3-5-2 under Evans was that we tended to pass the ball to death in the middle of the park. If we played (let's say for example) Sissoko/Hamann and Alonso together with Gerrard bombing on in front of them this formation could really work. It would also let us play Kewell or Garcia in a free role if the game needed it with Gerrard tucked back in the middle.



Conclusion

I wouln't mind seeing this formation again in the Derby next week if I'm honest. I think we might well need the extra midfielder and CB to deal with the way Everton play. As for playing against the top teams, we've played 4-4-2 against the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea this season and struggled, just think that this new system may be worth persevering with for a little while longer.

Thoughts?

[Flashard]

I thought it looked good and we seemed to be as a unit very mobile. My only concern would be that Carra tends to Marshall the offside and we tend to get it right when we have the 4 along the back with 3 at the back the two wider center backs tend to get pulled forward, so you end up with a sort of sweeper. This would mean no offside and pressure being put on your defence from wide positions.

But did look good though. Another tactical stroke by Raffa.

[stmichael]

another thing which i noticed was that the formation allowed us to get more players in and around the proximity of the penalty area when we attacked. in the past we have struggled to get men forward, especially away from home.

[bigmick]

Usually when people post up that you need to be at the ground to fully appreciate what's going on I tend to disagree. I go to a few games ( though not all involving Liverpool ) and often have to check up on the box later to confirm what I think I've seen. I'm probably sad but I quite enjoy watching football on the telly, I've never been one for big screens in Pubs and some fool chirping in you ear when he clearly hasn't even a basic notion of whats going on. In the game yesterday though I wish I had been there and not watching it on the box because I have not the faintest idea what our formation was.
That Kromkamp and Warnock were encouraged to get forward is not in doubt. Whether I would go as far as to describe their roles as wing-backs though is in doubt given that Cisse barely moved off the right touchline and Kewell in the main played left side. Kewells role infact was most bizarre, he appeared to be just drifting in and out of areas whenever he felt like it, even finding himself on the edge of our box at times.
Whatever the formation was supposed to be it worked really well but I would urge a note of caution on three fronts.
Firstly it has to be said that Newcastle are a poor side at the moment. Shearer is someway past his sell-by date and  their defence is probably the worst in the Prem apart from Sunderland. Were it not for Scott Parker and Shay Given they would nye-on get relegated.
Secondly, there are a couple of obvious flaws in a three centre back system which are well known and documented. We caught Newcastle by surprise yesterday but teams with a bit more ability and in posession of a more knowledgeable coach would exploit the weaknesses more often than not.

As a footnote the obvious flaws are thus: if you play any system which increases numbers in an area of the pitch without taking necessity into account there is a danger that players will abdicate responsibility and the job in hand won't get done. That is to say (and Newcastle's goal yesterday was a perfect example) when a ball gets played in, wrongly assuming there is safety in numbers players don't react as they should. Everyone looks at each other and nobody marks the centre forward, leading to the inexplicable situation where with three centre halves marking two forwards you have a goalscorer with not a defender within ten yards of him. This can be eradicated or reduced with practice but clever forwards will move from one marker to another, causing themselves to get "passed" between central defenders. When working in tandem with a clever strike partner and employing criss-cross movement it can get very difficult to keep track of who's actually supposed to be the spare man at the back.
The other obvious flaw of 5-3-2, or 3-5-2 is that teams tend to encourage their strikers to work the channels more than they do normally, hitting them long and exploiting the areas in behind where the full backs would normally operate. It gives you a great big out-ball when playing it out from the back, with the net result being that in order to counteract the ploy, you end up getting your full-backs "pinned"  alongside your centre-halves and playing a rigid 5-3-2 while getting overrun in midfield. It weas a ploy which Hoddle was very fond of while he was England manager but the better teams will always find it out in my view.
It's a system I'd keep in the locker but bring out only occasionally.

[LFC #1]

Mick mate, I'm convinced you are Rafa in disguise! For one your avatar has always been a picture of him, so I have a mental image of you actually looking like him and your posts are always very well thought out and generally spot on.

I honestly think you could manage a premiership side successfully if you really wanted to.

[bigmick]

I honestly think you could manage a premiership side successfully if you really wanted to.

Well I really want to mate let's be serious. I'm like every footie fan in that I think I know what I'm on about but unfortunately I can't really really see a chairman taking a chance on old Micky as the new manager.   
I can just see it, "David O'Leary has been sacked and chairman Doug Ellis has announced that Mick has been made the new manager. Chairman Doug was quoted as saying ""I Know he was only running a boozer in Wimbledon before, but I've read his posts on the LFC newkit forum and this fella really knows his stuff.""
The Villa fans were actually all up for it until the incumbant announced that his first signing was going to be a diminutive and aesthetically challenged welshman by the name of Robert Earnshaw. Crowds gathered outside Villa Park chanting "We want Micky out, say We want Micky out". No doubt they also chanted that annoying protest thing "What do we want? Micky out, When do we want it? etc etc".
For his part, Micky deflected the abuse by announcing that he had appointed a little known fellow forumite by the name of Stu the Red as his chief scout. Despite denials from the permanently angry new member of the backroom staff, Micky managed to convince the baying masses that Earnshaw was actually Stu's suggestion and that Micky had wanted to sign a certain Dean Ashton all along.

Seriously though, I'd absolutely love to give it a go but it will remain a dream forever. Never mind tho' 

[redmikey]

big mick for paco's job if he leaves

[stmichael]

The Villa fans were actually all up for it until the incumbant announced that his first signing was going to be a diminutive and aesthetically challenged welshman by the name of Robert Earnshaw.

followed closely by damien fancis

[bigmick]

followed closely by damien fancis

Yeah another Stu suggestion. I was all for Jimmy Bullard until that nomark stepped in.   

[AlanHansen]

I wouldn't read anything into it, Newcastle were too poor. It's good to see that we can mix up the formation and put teams away though.

[stmichael]

I wouldn't read anything into it, Newcastle were too poor. It's good to see that we can mix up the formation and put teams away though.

That's fair enough. I was surprised as anyone by the formation but have to say that the match was like a training match for us. The amount of time & space the Barcodes gave us was incredible & for me any formation would have worked yesterday.

Like Bigmick says, it was quite confusing at times trying to work out the general formation we were playing but aslong as we're winning I'm not really bothered about the formation if I'm honest.

[dawson99]

i thought the whole point of the formaion was to rest certain players?
it worked tho so cant have any complaints over the last 2 games

[ivor_the_injun]

Good thread. Particularly good posts by StMichael and Mick.

I'm with Mick - I watched trying to get a mental picture of the formation, but it just seemed impossible to pin down. In particular, Kewell almost looked like he was playing in a free role, albeit only on one side of one half of the pitch. He certainly wasn't on the wing from what I could see.

Was delighted with the result yesterday, but I'd definitely be cautious about using the game as an indication of how well the "system" worked. Newcastle were utterly appalling. I can honestly say that their defence is one of the worst I've ever seen in the Premiership, and it's a tribute to Shay Given that they aren't in real trouble right now. The time and space we were getting out wide was almost hilarious.

And another thing - I would be utterly terrified to see 3 at the back if Traore is one of the 3.

I'll be interested to see what formation Rafa plays in the Cup now. If anything, I'd say a 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 is more tailor made for one-off cup football than for the league.

[puroresu]

I like the idea of having Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko together in Midfield.

[tubby]

I know tommorrows game is important but Id like to see this new formaton played against Birmingham. im sure once Sissoko gets back he will beef up the midfield again and allow the like of Gerrard to go forward mor often.

By the way is this Stevies highest scoring season ever. Im sure he hasnt scored this many in all comps before.