Liverpool FC Forum

[Judge]

......it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

Excellent point.... best goal difference, least losses.... all absolutely brilliant. Blinding in fact.

So much so that they conceal that we've won nothing in the last 2 years and that we are the only club to not win the premiership when we've only lost 2 games all season...

Blinding indeed..

did you expect us to go from 4th to winners in one season or did you expect us to make big steps towards challenging for the title and end up a just a little bit short due to a few bad draws when we needed a little extra something to grind out a 1-0 win ?

Im sure everyone wants over night success but how often does that happen ? surely its about building towards success ?

well chelsea came from nowhere to win

[Bad Bob]

......it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

Excellent point.... best goal difference, least losses.... all absolutely brilliant. Blinding in fact.

So much so that they conceal that we've won nothing in the last 2 years and that we are the only club to not win the premiership when we've only lost 2 games all season...

Blinding indeed..

did you expect us to go from 4th to winners in one season or did you expect us to make big steps towards challenging for the title and end up a just a little bit short due to a few bad draws when we needed a little extra something to grind out a 1-0 win ?

Im sure everyone wants over night success but how often does that happen ? surely its about building towards success ?

well chelsea came from nowhere to win

Largely because Roman Abramovich came from nowhere to bankroll a club overhaul from top to bottom in a veritable blink of an eye.  Apples and oranges comparison, mate.

[Number 9]

......it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

Excellent point.... best goal difference, least losses.... all absolutely brilliant. Blinding in fact.

So much so that they conceal that we've won nothing in the last 2 years and that we are the only club to not win the premiership when we've only lost 2 games all season...

Blinding indeed..

did you expect us to go from 4th to winners in one season or did you expect us to make big steps towards challenging for the title and end up a just a little bit short due to a few bad draws when we needed a little extra something to grind out a 1-0 win ?

Im sure everyone wants over night success but how often does that happen ? surely its about building towards success ?

well chelsea came from nowhere to win

Largely because Roman Abramovich came from nowhere to bankroll a club overhaul from top to bottom in a veritable blink of an eye.  Apples and oranges comparison, mate.

Ahem..... a good manager as well..it aint all about money!Look at City,what they spent!

Then they have this w@nker as a manager!!


Give him all the money in the world..the man is a prize dead personality co'ck..will NEVER lead a great team!!

[Bad Bob]

......it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

Excellent point.... best goal difference, least losses.... all absolutely brilliant. Blinding in fact.

So much so that they conceal that we've won nothing in the last 2 years and that we are the only club to not win the premiership when we've only lost 2 games all season...

Blinding indeed..

did you expect us to go from 4th to winners in one season or did you expect us to make big steps towards challenging for the title and end up a just a little bit short due to a few bad draws when we needed a little extra something to grind out a 1-0 win ?

Im sure everyone wants over night success but how often does that happen ? surely its about building towards success ?

well chelsea came from nowhere to win

Largely because Roman Abramovich came from nowhere to bankroll a club overhaul from top to bottom in a veritable blink of an eye.  Apples and oranges comparison, mate.

Ahem..... a good manager as well..it aint all about money!Look at City,what they spent!

Then they have this w@nker as a manager!!


Give him all the money in the world..the man is a prize dead personality co'ck..will NEVER lead a great team!!

Yep, the top to bottom club overhaul I mentioned including sacking Ranieri for Mourinho.  I don't think Mourinho is the whole story, though.  Look at Chelsea's roster when Abramovich took over in the summer of 2003 and look at how many quality players had come in by the time Mourinho arrived the following year.  Add on to that the number of players he was able to buy that summer and it becomes crystal clear that major wonga greased the wheels for Chelsea's fast track to success. 

[Number 9]

......it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

Excellent point.... best goal difference, least losses.... all absolutely brilliant. Blinding in fact.

So much so that they conceal that we've won nothing in the last 2 years and that we are the only club to not win the premiership when we've only lost 2 games all season...

Blinding indeed..

did you expect us to go from 4th to winners in one season or did you expect us to make big steps towards challenging for the title and end up a just a little bit short due to a few bad draws when we needed a little extra something to grind out a 1-0 win ?

Im sure everyone wants over night success but how often does that happen ? surely its about building towards success ?

well chelsea came from nowhere to win

Largely because Roman Abramovich came from nowhere to bankroll a club overhaul from top to bottom in a veritable blink of an eye.  Apples and oranges comparison, mate.

Ahem..... a good manager as well..it aint all about money!Look at City,what they spent!

Then they have this w@nker as a manager!!


Give him all the money in the world..the man is a prize dead personality co'ck..will NEVER lead a great team!!

Yep, the top to bottom club overhaul I mentioned including sacking Ranieri for Mourinho.  I don't think Mourinho is the whole story, though.  Look at Chelsea's roster when Abramovich took over in the summer of 2003 and look at how many quality players had come in by the time Mourinho arrived the following year.  Add on to that the number of players he was able to buy that summer and it becomes crystal clear that major wonga greased the wheels for Chelsea's fast track to success. 

Of course it did ffs anyone can see that!!But ya cant give money to a clown and expect him to do well...Hughes??
Wheels greased or not would never have won feck all!
Why?Cause hes a shi,te manager..no one likes him!
off back to Wales and take your posters of you doing a bicycle kick for the Mancs years ago with ya!!
twa't of a man!!

[Judge]

......it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

Excellent point.... best goal difference, least losses.... all absolutely brilliant. Blinding in fact.

So much so that they conceal that we've won nothing in the last 2 years and that we are the only club to not win the premiership when we've only lost 2 games all season...

Blinding indeed..

did you expect us to go from 4th to winners in one season or did you expect us to make big steps towards challenging for the title and end up a just a little bit short due to a few bad draws when we needed a little extra something to grind out a 1-0 win ?

Im sure everyone wants over night success but how often does that happen ? surely its about building towards success ?

well chelsea came from nowhere to win

Largely because Roman Abramovich came from nowhere to bankroll a club overhaul from top to bottom in a veritable blink of an eye.  Apples and oranges comparison, mate.

my point was chelsea came from nowhere. someone made apoint earlier about spending. this highlights the point that money needs to be spent every year to keep up. once a formula has been achieved, then its more likely that spending neednt be as gross in the future.

spend now big, gel the team with quality, then add one or two now and again. scum have done that for years, but did originally spend well in previous years to achieve this.

blackburn did it, and so has chelsea. no apples and oranges there

[bigmick]

Of course it did ffs anyone can see that!!But ya cant give money to a clown and expect him to do well...Hughes??
Wheels greased or not would never have won feck all!
Why?Cause hes a shi,te manager..no one likes him!
off back to Wales and take your posters of you doing a bicycle kick for the Mancs years ago with ya!!
twa't of a man!!

  Crying here, I don't even know why I find that so funny but it killed me anyway. "Posters of you doing a bicycle kick for the Mancs"    I'll be meself laughing driving to work now thinking about it.

[Bad Bob]

spend now big, gel the team with quality, then add one or two now and again.

It's a sound plan, mate, but it requires that sufficient cash be made available for that initial big spend in order to provide that platform of quality.  Abramovich pulled out all the stops when he first arrived with regard to transfer spending such that a very, very good Chelsea team was built virtually over night.  Rafa never had that can of cash available to him...even when H & G arrived.  So, he's necessarily had to build the team up over a longer period.  There's no question, of course, that he probably could have done so more efficiently than he has, with less money wasted on stop-gaps or players that didn't suit the English game or his system.  No question about that.  But, even if he'd got 90% of his transfers absolutely spot on, IMO, it would have still taken him a few years to get the squad in position to properly challenge, whereas Chelsea were able to go from 4th to 2nd (and CL semi-finalists) in one season following Abramovich's arrival.  To me that suggests at least a little of an apples and oranges situation.

[bigmick]

There's no question that when Chelsea won the league under Mourinho, money played a huge role. I'd be very surprised if anyone doubted that for a second, although that's not really the point here. the point is not either about transfer funds we've had, nor about whether or not we can be expected to build a title winning team in one season.

The point quite simply is that it took us quite a long time to get the hang of things. Course we're all glad that we have now, and equally the manager deserves plenty of credit for building a team which is good enough to challenge. It's only natural though to look at last seasons efforts, particularly as this season we've all rued the absense of Torres so much. Last season of course there was no need for such regrets as he scored every time he swung his foot, and was picked.

All that said, Bob's point about the discovery of a system which brought it all together is a valid one. It kind of brings us back to where we started in some respects in that the manager we are comparing with here managed to instantly arrive at a fairly inovative system which worked, and broadly stuck to it. Money is no guarantee of success, as Barry has so memorably demonstrated with his "posters of bicycle kicks" theorum. It certainly makes success possible, and obviously more likely, but allied to the transfer clout you do need to have a method which works. You can buy as many Deco's as you want, you ain't going to win the league in England.

  Anyways, it's something of a moot point as you can't turn back the clock, even though I've no doubts that the manager probably wishes he could, to last season at least and probably further. As it is, we've got it now so it's onwards and upwards. I can though understand some fans unease, as a return to our methods of the previous four and a half seasons would see us fairly quickly slip back down the greasy pole I should think. Fortunately, I agree with Bob in that Rafa isn't, to use his word a "nutter" and I do think we've well and truly got it now.

[bigmick]

Just one add on. Rafa was STILL talking this season about how he won the league twice at Valencia having drawn lots of matches. Now we all know on here thanks to Owzat that you need to win around 27 games in order to win it usually. The stats show quite clearly that it is the teams who win the most matches who prosper, not necessarily the teams who lose the least. For that reason, when Wigan equalise with ten minutes to go you simply do not take off Torres and Gerrard. It is/was absolute madness, and I don't think for a second we would do it again, or at least I hope not. Similarly, when Arsenal get their best player carried off and their best striker sent off, you thank your lucky stars for your good fortune and go all out to win the match. None of this "a draw at the Emirates is a good result" b0ll0cks, because that statement pre-supposes that you have equal numbers of players on the pitch, and that their best players are playing. Once that situation presented itself, we should have been camped in their six yard box instead of playing out the draw. As before, I'm fairly certain that if the situation presented itself again we'd do it differently.

I remember going into games in the early part of the season with Robbie Fowler up front on his own, experimental 4-5-1 formations, draws at Bramhall lane hailed as a decent point and the like. I remember discussing on here the fact that as the Mancs thios season played all of the top ten in the league AWAY from Home in the first 15 or so matches, we really could do with a lead as they'd finish strong. That thing about them finishing strong isn't new. Whether it's squad strength, character strength, good management or whatever it is, you absolutely know they are going to finish like a train. given that, points tossed away early in the season DO have an impact on the outcome. If you find yourselves seven or eight points behind them after 10 matches, you may not be out of it, but you certainly aren't in it either.

Anyways, national repeat yourself day so I'll say it again, we've got the hang of it now so hopefully we can move on. It would have been good if we were quicker learners, but we're there at last.

[Judge]

spend now big, gel the team with quality, then add one or two now and again.

It's a sound plan, mate, but it requires that sufficient cash be made available for that initial big spend in order to provide that platform of quality.  Abramovich pulled out all the stops when he first arrived with regard to transfer spending such that a very, very good Chelsea team was built virtually over night.  Rafa never had that can of cash available to him...even when H & G arrived.  So, he's necessarily had to build the team up over a longer period.  There's no question, of course, that he probably could have done so more efficiently than he has, with less money wasted on stop-gaps or players that didn't suit the English game or his system.  No question about that.  But, even if he'd got 90% of his transfers absolutely spot on, IMO, it would have still taken him a few years to get the squad in position to properly challenge, whereas Chelsea were able to go from 4th to 2nd (and CL semi-finalists) in one season following Abramovich's arrival.  To me that suggests at least a little of an apples and oranges situation.

fair comment

dont you just hate school teachers

[Bad Bob]

spend now big, gel the team with quality, then add one or two now and again.

It's a sound plan, mate, but it requires that sufficient cash be made available for that initial big spend in order to provide that platform of quality.  Abramovich pulled out all the stops when he first arrived with regard to transfer spending such that a very, very good Chelsea team was built virtually over night.  Rafa never had that can of cash available to him...even when H & G arrived.  So, he's necessarily had to build the team up over a longer period.  There's no question, of course, that he probably could have done so more efficiently than he has, with less money wasted on stop-gaps or players that didn't suit the English game or his system.  No question about that.  But, even if he'd got 90% of his transfers absolutely spot on, IMO, it would have still taken him a few years to get the squad in position to properly challenge, whereas Chelsea were able to go from 4th to 2nd (and CL semi-finalists) in one season following Abramovich's arrival.  To me that suggests at least a little of an apples and oranges situation.

fair comment

dont you just hate school teachers

Mick's right, though.  The money's not the main issue...the main issue is learning from our mistakes in order to maximize our chances of success.  I'll hold my hand up and say that I was slow to endorse the notion that Rafa's rotation was a stick in the spokes of success and slow to buy into the idea that a draw here and a draw there in November really does make a big difference in the title race.  In hindsight I can see now that there were lessons that could have been learned more quickly.  With all that said, I have faith that Rafa's learned them* and that next season will see us strongly challenge again.

*On the topic of learning from his mistakes, I think Rafa will have learned his mistake about trying to sell Alonso as well and that's why the current, inevitable paper talk about Alonso being sold to finance these or those purchases (always including Barry) is, IMO, nonsense.  I'll use that word again: Rafa would be a "nutter" to sell Alonso after the season he's just had.  Just thought I'd mention that one, as selling Alonso was one of the few mistakes I denounced at the time rather than with the benefit of hindsight (see above).

[SupitsJonF]

Mick, I opened up Microsoft Word and put your post on auto summarize, was like spark notes

[Owzat]

We've won 12 of the last 15 league games, 34 of the last 50 and lost only six games in two seasons. You have to wonder if Rafa can't win it next season if he ever will, the platform is there. Last season had too many draws, this season has had too many draws, can we afford a third consecutive season with too many draws or any kind of backward step?

[tubby]

Wasn't sure where to put this.

Rafa Benitez's five-year plan for Liverpool FC is dependent on next five weeks

May 25 2009  by David Prentice, Liverpool Echo

IT’S taken Rafael Benitez five years to close the gap at the top of the Premier League. At the end of his first full Anfield season the Reds were a cavernous 37 points behind runaway champions Chelsea.

Now they’re the equivalent of turning a couple of home draws into victories behind Manchester United.

Whether Benitez can close the most difficult gap of all, however, could depend on the next five weeks.

After the competitive action came to a predictably uncompetitive end at Anfield yesterday, attention instantly switched to the identity of the men the Liverpool manager seeks to bring in this summer.

And perhaps even more importantly, who he lets go.

“No names, today, please” he grinned, as soon as the first transfer related query was directed his way after the 3-1 defeat of Tottenham.....

[url=http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2009/05/25/rafa-benitez-s-five-year-plan-for-liverpool-fc-is-dependent-on-next-five-weeks-100252-2370
4483/]Link to full article[/url]