Liverpool FC Forum

[aCe']

Nice to see the positiveness we have gained from this season is still flowing - Giving our best manager since Kenny an extended contract after giving us our best ever prem season since it started a msitake ?!?!?!?! wtf guys

Opinions mate..... you have yours and I have mine.

Of course Rafa is the best manager since Kenny.... Good, but still not good enough.... Kenny was the last one to bring home the premiership.... I have no wish to mire in mediocrity.... we've done that long enough....

That's why I still hold the torch for his return...... failing that, I've long advocated Hiddink as well.

Let's see what happens in the summer. I pray that it's a good one and we push on from this season's effort. Not much time left.

Utd are perilously close to eclipsing our mantle as the best club in England (records wise). Ferguson is close to achieving his stated ambition of knocking us of our perch. Our captain and talisman is in his prime and will, in all likelihood, start his journey down the other side of the hill in a season or two. Carra has already started his journey. And we've choked on the best chance we've had in years of winning the premiership due to negative tactics, rotation, poor buys, injuries, bad luck, zonal marking or any number of other excuses/reasons we can come up with..... And we want to persist with the man who acts the goat in the press and, in recent times, behaves in exactly the same way that the whiskey nosed one has been doing in the past (much to our disgust).... losing the dignity of the club along the way?

I certainly don't. As far as I'm concerned.... we should have been rid of him at the end of this season. Seeing as we can't now, due the ridiculous cost of giving him a golden handshake, we'll have to see how this all pans out. Evaluate at the end of the season yet again.....

I'll tell you now..... my patience has all but run out with Rafa.

good post... probably earned himself another season given how far we've come this season but i think that next season could very well be his last unless we go out and buy the right players this summer and approach next season's fixtures (especially against the smaller sides) in a more positive manner... despite what we've seen in the last couple of months or so im still not convinced that Rafa has it in him to change his ways so drastically over the course of an entire season... lets face it, thats what he needs to do and thats pretty much what hes failed to realize or agree to ever since he's been here...

[Bad Bob]

Nice to see the positiveness we have gained from this season is still flowing - Giving our best manager since Kenny an extended contract after giving us our best ever prem season since it started a msitake ?!?!?!?! wtf guys

Opinions mate..... you have yours and I have mine.

Of course Rafa is the best manager since Kenny.... Good, but still not good enough.... Kenny was the last one to bring home the premiership.... I have no wish to mire in mediocrity.... we've done that long enough....

That's why I still hold the torch for his return...... failing that, I've long advocated Hiddink as well.

Let's see what happens in the summer. I pray that it's a good one and we push on from this season's effort. Not much time left.

Utd are perilously close to eclipsing our mantle as the best club in England (records wise). Ferguson is close to achieving his stated ambition of knocking us of our perch. Our captain and talisman is in his prime and will, in all likelihood, start his journey down the other side of the hill in a season or two. Carra has already started his journey. And we've choked on the best chance we've had in years of winning the premiership due to negative tactics, rotation, poor buys, injuries, bad luck, zonal marking or any number of other excuses/reasons we can come up with..... And we want to persist with the man who acts the goat in the press and, in recent times, behaves in exactly the same way that the whiskey nosed one has been doing in the past (much to our disgust).... losing the dignity of the club along the way?

I certainly don't. As far as I'm concerned.... we should have been rid of him at the end of this season. Seeing as we can't now, due the ridiculous cost of giving him a golden handshake, we'll have to see how this all pans out. Evaluate at the end of the season yet again.....

I'll tell you now..... my patience has all but run out with Rafa.

good post... probably earned himself another season given how far we've come this season but i think that next season could very well be his last unless we go out and buy the right players this summer and approach next season's fixtures (especially against the smaller sides) in a more positive manner... despite what we've seen in the last couple of months or so im still not convinced that Rafa has it in him to change his ways so drastically over the course of an entire season... lets face it, thats what he needs to do and thats pretty much what hes failed to realize or agree to ever since he's been here...

On the flipside, people like Mick were saying the exact same thing about Rafa's approach to rotation: he'll never change etc. etc.  But he did change his approach during the run-in last season and largely stuck to a new (for him) framework for team selection for all of this season, with positive results.  So, who's to say he won't have learned an important lesson from our last three months and encourage a more expansive game against the lesser sides from the off next season?  I know the man's shown what many would call a strong stubborn streak during his time with us but he's also shown the capacity to learn and adapt.  I back him to do just that next season. 

[ConnO'var]

So, who's to say he won't have learned an important lesson from our last three months and encourage a more expansive game against the lesser sides from the off next season?  I know the man's shown what many would call a strong stubborn streak during his time with us but he's also shown the capacity to learn and adapt.  I back him to do just that next season. 

Good post Bob and point taken.

If he does do as you suggest..... I'll be happy to scoff down the entire humble pie.

[Bad Bob]

So, who's to say he won't have learned an important lesson from our last three months and encourage a more expansive game against the lesser sides from the off next season?  I know the man's shown what many would call a strong stubborn streak during his time with us but he's also shown the capacity to learn and adapt.  I back him to do just that next season. 

Good post Bob and point taken.

If he does do as you suggest..... I'll be happy to scoff down the entire humble pie.

I think it's the big divide separating those who back Rafa and those that don't, mate.  No one can argue with our form over the last three months so the debate really becomes about faith going forward: faith that the form we're showing now can be established as the blueprint from the first match next season.  Those of us who have faith in Rafa expect him to have learned a lot from this season and make the right adjustments for next season.  Those that don't back the manager are less confident that he's seen the light.  Only time will tell who's right, mate.

[bigmick]

Is it a legitimate question to ask why it took five years to see the light Bob? Given other managers have come into English Football, admittedly spent big money but have played a power game with an English style centre forward and broken the points record for the Premiership in their first season.

I'm all for the way we are playing as of now, and I've long said we've had a much better team than our results would suggest (the credit for assembling it is obviously due to the manager). Last season though, Torres fit all year long practically and never ever within shouting distance of the top of the league, fourth and a mile back, trophyless and out of the title race before it had even started. It's great to see we have finally got the hang of things but feck me we took our time getting there, five seasons to be exact.

[Judge]

bob whats with the colour freaks in your sig?

[GYBS]

maybe it took the 5 seasons to get the right players and the right mix into the team - as you say mick someone was able to spend big money in one season to get the players he wanted to play the way he wanted where as our manager has had to take time to build it up . It doesnt happen over night if you cant fork out 100 odd million in one summer

And conn - are you talking about bringing kenny back as manager ? is that not a step backwards ?

[Judge]

i was wondering if the old 2 point for a win was back in fashion, then we'd have 59 points and scum would have 60 points going into the last day of the season - that wouldve been interesting

[bigmick]

maybe it took the 5 seasons to get the right players and the right mix into the team - as you say mick someone was able to spend big money in one season to get the players he wanted to play the way he wanted where as our manager has had to take time to build it up . It doesnt happen over night if you cant fork out 100 odd million in one summer

And conn - are you talking about bringing kenny back as manager ? is that not a step backwards ?

Look it's not a tit for tat point. "Maybe he did this, and maybe he did that". I'm simply making the point nthat it would have been a bonus had there been some realisation that mass rotation and a fairly negative set-up weren't the way to go a fairly long time before now.

I made the point about the other bloke simply because by contrast, he came in and sussed out pretty quickly what was needed. Neither did he spend 100 million quid in one Summer, and to be perfectly honest constantly making such claims whenever such a thing is discussed gets kind of boring.

At the end of the day, it's nothing to do with taking time to get the players in place. We had the players in place LAST season, and we were out of the title race after ten matches. We made 75 changes to the first team in the first 15 games or whatever the feck the numbers were, so spending 100 million quid and the like are an irrelevence.

as i've said many times, I'm really glad we're now on the right track. Rafa has said himself that we have reduced the rotation significantly this season, and only a fool would deny we have begun to play much more attacking in the second half of this season. The point is quite simply that it would have been lovely had we made the conversion earlier, that's all.

[DrPepe]

maybe it took the 5 seasons to get the right players and the right mix into the team - as you say mick someone was able to spend big money in one season to get the players he wanted to play the way he wanted where as our manager has had to take time to build it up . It doesnt happen over night if you cant fork out 100 odd million in one summer

And conn - are you talking about bringing kenny back as manager ? is that not a step backwards ?

Look it's not a tit for tat point. "Maybe he did this, and maybe he did that". I'm simply making the point nthat it would have been a bonus had there been some realisation that mass rotation and a fairly negative set-up weren't the way to go a fairly long time before now.

I made the point about the other bloke simply because by contrast, he came in and sussed out pretty quickly what was needed. Neither did he spend 100 million quid in one Summer, and to be perfectly honest constantly making such claims whenever such a thing is discussed gets kind of boring.

At the end of the day, it's nothing to do with taking time to get the players in place. We had the players in place LAST season, and we were out of the title race after ten matches. We made 75 changes to the first team in the first 15 games or whatever the feck the numbers were, so spending 100 million quid and the like are an irrelevence.

as i've said many times, I'm really glad we're now on the right track. Rafa has said himself that we have reduced the rotation significantly this season, and only a fool would deny we have begun to play much more attacking in the second half of this season. The point is quite simply that it would have been lovely had we made the conversion earlier, that's all.

do you think our squad is as strong as the mancs',  bigmick?

[bigmick]

maybe it took the 5 seasons to get the right players and the right mix into the team - as you say mick someone was able to spend big money in one season to get the players he wanted to play the way he wanted where as our manager has had to take time to build it up . It doesnt happen over night if you cant fork out 100 odd million in one summer

And conn - are you talking about bringing kenny back as manager ? is that not a step backwards ?

Look it's not a tit for tat point. "Maybe he did this, and maybe he did that". I'm simply making the point nthat it would have been a bonus had there been some realisation that mass rotation and a fairly negative set-up weren't the way to go a fairly long time before now.

I made the point about the other bloke simply because by contrast, he came in and sussed out pretty quickly what was needed. Neither did he spend 100 million quid in one Summer, and to be perfectly honest constantly making such claims whenever such a thing is discussed gets kind of boring.

At the end of the day, it's nothing to do with taking time to get the players in place. We had the players in place LAST season, and we were out of the title race after ten matches. We made 75 changes to the first team in the first 15 games or whatever the feck the numbers were, so spending 100 million quid and the like are an irrelevence.

as i've said many times, I'm really glad we're now on the right track. Rafa has said himself that we have reduced the rotation significantly this season, and only a fool would deny we have begun to play much more attacking in the second half of this season. The point is quite simply that it would have been lovely had we made the conversion earlier, that's all.

do you think our squad is as strong as the mancs',  bigmick?

No I don't. I've never at any stage said our squad is a strong as the Mancs mate, although the gap isn't as big as the silly c...s in the press would have you believe.

The keepers are close, as are their replacements (I prefer Reina, but I prefer their back up).

The right backs (first choice) are very close, but we don't really have a back up so they shade that. Their centre halves are better than ours, but I think our back ups are better than theirs. The left back is marginally better than ours, and the back ups similar.

At the right hand side of midfield I do think Ronaldo is a better player than Kuyt (although there are some Kuyt-hawks who will deny that no doubt), whilst I think Park Jee Song is probably on about a par with Yossi, although a different tuype of player.

I think Masherano, Alonso and Gerrard are all better than any of their central midfielders now Scholes has declined somewhat, while I think Riera is the equal of any of their left midfielders unless Ronney plays there, in which case he obviously isn't. Babel is probably the equivalent of some young bloke they've got who is on the fringe of the first team.

Up top, Torres is obviously better than any of theirs, as is Gerrard. N'Gog wouldn't get a game in their reserves though, so the fact they have Tevez and Berbatov who can be replaced by either Ronaldo or Rooney gives them the edge. The young Italian kid is inconsequential.


What we've learnt this season though, is if you haven't got the players to change the team five times per match, don't do it then. All this nonsense about resting blokes willy nilly has been categorically proven to be total b0ll0cks. As I've said many times, it's akin to knocking high ball after high ball to Michael Owen then saying when you never keep the ball, "ah but it would work if we had Crouch". If you haven't got Crouch or similar, don't knock high balls then. If you haven't got as strong a squad as the Mancs, don't make as many changes as them. 

It all seems pretty simple to me, quite why it's taken us five seasons to get our heads around it will remain a mystery to me till my dying day.

[DrPepe]

maybe it took the 5 seasons to get the right players and the right mix into the team - as you say mick someone was able to spend big money in one season to get the players he wanted to play the way he wanted where as our manager has had to take time to build it up . It doesnt happen over night if you cant fork out 100 odd million in one summer

And conn - are you talking about bringing kenny back as manager ? is that not a step backwards ?

Look it's not a tit for tat point. "Maybe he did this, and maybe he did that". I'm simply making the point nthat it would have been a bonus had there been some realisation that mass rotation and a fairly negative set-up weren't the way to go a fairly long time before now.

I made the point about the other bloke simply because by contrast, he came in and sussed out pretty quickly what was needed. Neither did he spend 100 million quid in one Summer, and to be perfectly honest constantly making such claims whenever such a thing is discussed gets kind of boring.

At the end of the day, it's nothing to do with taking time to get the players in place. We had the players in place LAST season, and we were out of the title race after ten matches. We made 75 changes to the first team in the first 15 games or whatever the feck the numbers were, so spending 100 million quid and the like are an irrelevence.

as i've said many times, I'm really glad we're now on the right track. Rafa has said himself that we have reduced the rotation significantly this season, and only a fool would deny we have begun to play much more attacking in the second half of this season. The point is quite simply that it would have been lovely had we made the conversion earlier, that's all.

do you think our squad is as strong as the mancs',  bigmick?

No I don't. I've never at any stage said our squad is a strong as the Mancs mate, although the gap isn't as big as the silly c...s in the press would have you believe.

The keepers are close, as are their replacements (I prefer Reina, but I prefer their back up).

The right backs (first choice) are very close, but we don't really have a back up so they shade that. Their centre halves are better than ours, but I think our back ups are better than theirs. The left back is marginally better than ours, and the back ups similar.

At the right hand side of midfield I do think Ronaldo is a better player than Kuyt (although there are some Kuyt-hawks who will deny that no doubt), whilst I think Park Jee Song is probably on about a par with Yossi, although a different tuype of player.

I think Masherano, Alonso and Gerrard are all better than any of their central midfielders now Scholes has declined somewhat, while I think Riera is the equal of any of their left midfielders unless Ronney plays there, in which case he obviously isn't. Babel is probably the equivalent of some young bloke they've got who is on the fringe of the first team.

Up top, Torres is obviously better than any of theirs, as is Gerrard. N'Gog wouldn't get a game in their reserves though, so the fact they have Tevez and Berbatov who can be replaced by either Ronaldo or Rooney gives them the edge. The young Italian kid is inconsequential.


What we've learnt this season though, is if you haven't got the players to change the team five times per match, don't do it then. All this nonsense about resting blokes willy nilly has been categorically proven to be total b0ll0cks. As I've said many times, it's akin to knocking high ball after high ball to Michael Owen then saying when you never keep the ball, "ah but it would work if we had Crouch". If you haven't got Crouch or similar, don't knock high balls then. If you haven't got as strong a squad as the Mancs, don't make as many changes as them. 

It all seems pretty simple to me, quite why it's taken us five seasons to get our heads around it will remain a mystery to me till my dying day.

i agree with about 80-90% of that .   in most positions our squad is v similar i n quality to theirs

...a couple of sentences inthe middle show where we're lacking

so the fact they have Tevez and Berbatov who can be replaced by either Ronaldo or Rooney gives them the edge. The young Italian kid is inconsequential.

rather than it "gives them the edge" , actually  it's a massive, massive advantage for them. 100m+ worth of attacking talent that nobody else in the prem has (ours is only about 50m  ).

[RedBlood]

i think the first elevens are on par with each other we shade it in some areas and visa versa, but the back up elevens are miles apart

if we could buy the likes of silva tevez johnson and still keeps the likes of arebola kuyt riera etc happy as back up we will there imo

[Bad Bob]

Is it a legitimate question to ask why it took five years to see the light Bob? Given other managers have come into English Football, admittedly spent big money but have played a power game with an English style centre forward and broken the points record for the Premiership in their first season.

I'm all for the way we are playing as of now, and I've long said we've had a much better team than our results would suggest (the credit for assembling it is obviously due to the manager). Last season though, Torres fit all year long practically and never ever within shouting distance of the top of the league, fourth and a mile back, trophyless and out of the title race before it had even started. It's great to see we have finally got the hang of things but feck me we took our time getting there, five seasons to be exact.

I think it's an absolutely legitimate question, mate, and I think it accounts for why so many knowledgeable posters, such as your good self, have been critical of Rafa over the years.  We've had the potential to do better than we've done, it's fair to say.  I don't think we've been in a position to win the league before now--not even last season and I'll come back to that--but we've certainly had the players to challenge a lot more effectively than we have done in the past.  With the benefit of hindsight I'm fully prepared to admit that Rafa overcooked the rotation in the past.  The reasoning behind it is sound--football at the top level is a squad game these days given the number of matches to be played--but you really need a squad of greater quality than we've had to pull it off.  Since we didn't really have that, it probably would have been better to stick with a settled side more often and see where that got is.  If it burned us out before May so be it....  So, yes, I can understand people being a bit wary of the manager given the slow progress during his tenure.  I guess for me, though, it's all water under the bridge provided he sticks with the current formula which is obviously paying dividends.  He'd have to be a bit of a nutter not to, to be honest, and Rafa's no nutter.

Just to come back to this idea that we might have had a proper go at the title last season, given Torres' form, I think it's more complicated than that.  We could talk about the form of key players like Alonso, Benayoun, Aurelio and Kuyt then vs. now, for instance.  We could talk about Riera ahead of Babel/Kewell and what benefits that switch has brought to our attacking balance.  But, most importantly, we could and probably should talk about the fact that Rafa didn't come up with our current 4-2-3-1 set-up until late February last year--a set up that, IMO, has been absolutely fundamental to our success.  I don't have any stats on how Torres and Gerrard did in terms of scoring before that switch (obviously Torres was doing well because you don't score 30 goals in just the last 3 months of a season) but I think it's fair to say that moving Gerrard in behind the Spaniard was a stroke of genius--a move that also seems to be the making of Kuyt as a bona fide Liverpool player and a move that has helped Alonso return to his best form.  Some will ask why we didn't try that from the off last season but I think that would be a churlish criticism given the way 4-4-2 is lionized as the 'proper' way to play football in England (even though no top teams seem to play that system anymore ).  Anyway, rambling a bit here but food for thought, I think.

[GYBS]

Ok sorry mick - 70 mil to add to the millions already spent the season before him ,