im just a little bit curious to know whether a 5th champions league place is up for grabs if chelsea win both the premiership and the champions league?
hope you can help
A question! - 5th place qualifies for the champ league
25 posts
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by el_stinger » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:24 pm
Dont think so. Even though the winner of the CL gets automatic promotion, there would still only be 4 places allowed for English teams. Consider:
Imagine (and wish) we win the CL final and gain auto promotion to next season's CL, this would mean:
1. Chelski
2. Man Utd
3. Arsenal
get auto promotion because of the entry gained from the first 3 clubs is automatic. Then 4th placed team get bumped off (if Everton get 4th) because we get automatic qualification for winning the CL.
Sweet huh?
Imagine (and wish) we win the CL final and gain auto promotion to next season's CL, this would mean:
1. Chelski
2. Man Utd
3. Arsenal
get auto promotion because of the entry gained from the first 3 clubs is automatic. Then 4th placed team get bumped off (if Everton get 4th) because we get automatic qualification for winning the CL.
Sweet huh?
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by 115-1073096938 » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:24 pm
No it won't happen.
4 teams from one country only.
If Liverpool were to win the champions league, and finish fifth the F.A. would have to decide did it want ourselves or Everton (presumabley 4th) who to be the last representative.
Which is stupid, but thats the F.A. for you.
Stinger, the 4th place team don't get bumped off, the F.A. has to make a decision and would hopefully use there common sense and pick ourselves, but when do the F.A. ever show any sense?
4 teams from one country only.
If Liverpool were to win the champions league, and finish fifth the F.A. would have to decide did it want ourselves or Everton (presumabley 4th) who to be the last representative.
Which is stupid, but thats the F.A. for you.
Stinger, the 4th place team don't get bumped off, the F.A. has to make a decision and would hopefully use there common sense and pick ourselves, but when do the F.A. ever show any sense?
Last edited by 115-1073096938 on Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- 115-1073096938
by el_stinger » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:29 pm
Serious? I thought if a team that doesnt make the position's required to gain entry to the CL, but win it, they would get preference to the last placed side. So in essence, if Everton get 4th, and we win the CL and get 5th spot, we would still get entry cos we get auto qualification, and Everton would get bumped.
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by malone » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:31 pm
el_stinger wrote:Serious? I thought if a team that doesnt make the position's required to gain entry to the CL, but win it, they would get preference to the last placed side. So in essence, if Everton get 4th, and we win the CL and get 5th spot, we would still get entry cos we get auto qualification, and Everton would get bumped.
yes, i agree with el_stinger
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by Leonmc0708 » Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:40 pm
Courtesy of Anthony over on RAWK:
Right, as this topic has been raised again and again in various threads I have done some deeper research into exactly what the situation is regarding qualifying for next season's UEFA Competitions. The results are as follows...
Qualification for the Champions League
This is governed by Regulation 1 of the UEFA Champions League Regulations (http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19071.pdf) which state
Quote
1.01
UEFA member associations may enter a certain number of clubs for this competition, in accordance with their position in the rankings listed in Annexe Ia, and subject to the approval of the UEFA Administration. However, no association may enter more than four clubs for the competition. For representation in the 2004/05 competition, the seasons from 1998/99 to 2002/03 inclusive are taken into account.
England has 4 representatives which relates to
Quote
1.02
d) Four representatives: winners, runners-up, third- and fourth-placed clubs in the top domestic league championship.
The winners and runners-up qualify for the Group Stages directly while 3rd & 4th enter the 3rd Qualifying Round. Note that the place does not move down the league if the Champions League Winners also qualify for the Champions League via their league position - in fact quite the contrary as the Regulation which has been exercising everybody's attention shows
Quote
1.03
At the request of the national association concerned, the UEFA Champions League title-holders may be entered for this competition, as an additional representative of that association, if they have not qualified for the UEFA Champions League via the top domestic league championship. If, in such a case, the title-holders come from an association entitled to enter four teams for the UEFA Champions League, the fourth-placed club in the top domestic league championship has to be entered for the UEFA Cup.
This happened in 2000 when Real Madrid won the Champions League but finished 5th. Real Zaragoza, who would have made the Qualifiers by finishing 4th, were demoted to the UEFA Cup. However, the operative words are "At the request of the national association concerned" (ie the FA) meaning that they could decide not to nominate the Champions League Winners leaving the 4th-place side to enter the qualifiers. I have not been able to find any reference in either the FA Regulations or the Premier League Regulations to which decision would be made but I do note with interest that the FA Website makes reference to this possibility at http://www.thefa.com/TheFA....ion.htm - my guess is that they do not want to address this situation unless it arises but whichever choice they made it would be controversial - especially if the choice was between Liverpool and Everton!
(Incidentally, if the Champions League Winners did qualify via this route they would go straight into the Group Stages, not the Qualifiers)
The UEFA Cup
The Regulations for this are at http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19070.pdf. The relevant parts are as follows
Quote
1.01
UEFA member associations may enter the winners of the national association’s cup competition (hereinafter domestic cup), as well as a certain number of other clubs for this competition, in accordance with their position in the rankings listed in Annexe Ia, and subject to the approval of the UEFA Administration. For representation in the 2004/05 competition, the seasons from 1998/99 to 2002/03 inclusive are taken into account. Clubs must be entered by the national associations on merit (see Annexe Ia).
England have 3 places available - assigned to the FA Cup Winners, 5th place in the league and League Cup Winners by virtue of...
Quote
1.03
In special circumstances, the winners of another official domestic competition may be entered for the UEFA Cup instead of the lowest ranking top domestic league championship representative referred to in paragraphs 1.02b) and 1.02c), provided such a competition has been approved by UEFA before the start of the season in question (see Annexe Ia).
The FA Cup Runners-up can qualify via...
Quote
1.04
If the winners of the domestic cup competition organised by the national association qualify for the UEFA Champions League, the domestic cup runners-up may qualify for the UEFA Cup. Should both these clubs qualify for the UEFA Champions League, the association concerned may enter in the UEFA Cup the club which finishes the top domestic league championship immediately below the other club or clubs qualifying for the UEFA Cup.
This refers to the FA Cup only and not the League Cup so this season the "League Cup" place will go to 6th Place in the League (assuming Chelsea don't get docked 40 points for tapping up and finish outside the top 5).
Further UEFA Cup places are also available via the Fair Play League and Intertoto Cup
Fair Play League
UEFA maintains a Fair Play League. The country/association at the top of this league gains an extra UEFA Cup Place to be allocated to the winners of their own Fair Play Competition (or down the list if they have already qualified). The next few countries in the UEFA Fair Play League enter a lottery where 2 Countries also receive a UEFA Cup Place again to be allocated to the domestic Fair Play Champions. (As at 1/3/05 England is ranked provisionally 5th but the points are extremely tight - http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/news/050301.html)
Intertoto Cup
These are at http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19069.pdf if you want to see them. 3 places in the UEFA Cup are available but you have to register your interest in entering early in the season. I would be surprised if we have expressed such an interest.
Seeding
The qualifiers and early rounds of the Champions League & UEFA Cup are seeded according to Team Ranking. An explanation can be found on Bert Kassies's excellent site http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/index.html while our current ranking is listed at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/trank2005.html (As at 1/3/05, before the return leg with Bayer, we are ranked 6th which would see us in the 1st pot of seeds were we to qualify for the Champions League Group Stages)
Dates
There is a calendar of "provisional" dates for draws,matches etc at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/calendar2005.html
So there you are - your guide to European Qualification. One caveat! the regulations I have quoted are for this season's competitions so it is always possible it may change for next season. However any changes should have been announced by now and I am not aware of any having been made.
So let's go lala, dipsys that 4th place and leave the Blues po-faced...
Eh-Oh!
Right, as this topic has been raised again and again in various threads I have done some deeper research into exactly what the situation is regarding qualifying for next season's UEFA Competitions. The results are as follows...
Qualification for the Champions League
This is governed by Regulation 1 of the UEFA Champions League Regulations (http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19071.pdf) which state
Quote
1.01
UEFA member associations may enter a certain number of clubs for this competition, in accordance with their position in the rankings listed in Annexe Ia, and subject to the approval of the UEFA Administration. However, no association may enter more than four clubs for the competition. For representation in the 2004/05 competition, the seasons from 1998/99 to 2002/03 inclusive are taken into account.
England has 4 representatives which relates to
Quote
1.02
d) Four representatives: winners, runners-up, third- and fourth-placed clubs in the top domestic league championship.
The winners and runners-up qualify for the Group Stages directly while 3rd & 4th enter the 3rd Qualifying Round. Note that the place does not move down the league if the Champions League Winners also qualify for the Champions League via their league position - in fact quite the contrary as the Regulation which has been exercising everybody's attention shows
Quote
1.03
At the request of the national association concerned, the UEFA Champions League title-holders may be entered for this competition, as an additional representative of that association, if they have not qualified for the UEFA Champions League via the top domestic league championship. If, in such a case, the title-holders come from an association entitled to enter four teams for the UEFA Champions League, the fourth-placed club in the top domestic league championship has to be entered for the UEFA Cup.
This happened in 2000 when Real Madrid won the Champions League but finished 5th. Real Zaragoza, who would have made the Qualifiers by finishing 4th, were demoted to the UEFA Cup. However, the operative words are "At the request of the national association concerned" (ie the FA) meaning that they could decide not to nominate the Champions League Winners leaving the 4th-place side to enter the qualifiers. I have not been able to find any reference in either the FA Regulations or the Premier League Regulations to which decision would be made but I do note with interest that the FA Website makes reference to this possibility at http://www.thefa.com/TheFA....ion.htm - my guess is that they do not want to address this situation unless it arises but whichever choice they made it would be controversial - especially if the choice was between Liverpool and Everton!
(Incidentally, if the Champions League Winners did qualify via this route they would go straight into the Group Stages, not the Qualifiers)
The UEFA Cup
The Regulations for this are at http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19070.pdf. The relevant parts are as follows
Quote
1.01
UEFA member associations may enter the winners of the national association’s cup competition (hereinafter domestic cup), as well as a certain number of other clubs for this competition, in accordance with their position in the rankings listed in Annexe Ia, and subject to the approval of the UEFA Administration. For representation in the 2004/05 competition, the seasons from 1998/99 to 2002/03 inclusive are taken into account. Clubs must be entered by the national associations on merit (see Annexe Ia).
England have 3 places available - assigned to the FA Cup Winners, 5th place in the league and League Cup Winners by virtue of...
Quote
1.03
In special circumstances, the winners of another official domestic competition may be entered for the UEFA Cup instead of the lowest ranking top domestic league championship representative referred to in paragraphs 1.02b) and 1.02c), provided such a competition has been approved by UEFA before the start of the season in question (see Annexe Ia).
The FA Cup Runners-up can qualify via...
Quote
1.04
If the winners of the domestic cup competition organised by the national association qualify for the UEFA Champions League, the domestic cup runners-up may qualify for the UEFA Cup. Should both these clubs qualify for the UEFA Champions League, the association concerned may enter in the UEFA Cup the club which finishes the top domestic league championship immediately below the other club or clubs qualifying for the UEFA Cup.
This refers to the FA Cup only and not the League Cup so this season the "League Cup" place will go to 6th Place in the League (assuming Chelsea don't get docked 40 points for tapping up and finish outside the top 5).
Further UEFA Cup places are also available via the Fair Play League and Intertoto Cup
Fair Play League
UEFA maintains a Fair Play League. The country/association at the top of this league gains an extra UEFA Cup Place to be allocated to the winners of their own Fair Play Competition (or down the list if they have already qualified). The next few countries in the UEFA Fair Play League enter a lottery where 2 Countries also receive a UEFA Cup Place again to be allocated to the domestic Fair Play Champions. (As at 1/3/05 England is ranked provisionally 5th but the points are extremely tight - http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/news/050301.html)
Intertoto Cup
These are at http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19069.pdf if you want to see them. 3 places in the UEFA Cup are available but you have to register your interest in entering early in the season. I would be surprised if we have expressed such an interest.
Seeding
The qualifiers and early rounds of the Champions League & UEFA Cup are seeded according to Team Ranking. An explanation can be found on Bert Kassies's excellent site http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/index.html while our current ranking is listed at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/trank2005.html (As at 1/3/05, before the return leg with Bayer, we are ranked 6th which would see us in the 1st pot of seeds were we to qualify for the Champions League Group Stages)
Dates
There is a calendar of "provisional" dates for draws,matches etc at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/calendar2005.html
So there you are - your guide to European Qualification. One caveat! the regulations I have quoted are for this season's competitions so it is always possible it may change for next season. However any changes should have been announced by now and I am not aware of any having been made.
So let's go lala, dipsys that 4th place and leave the Blues po-faced...
Eh-Oh!
JUSTICE FOR THE 96
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by el_stinger » Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:57 am
Has this ever happened before? I mean, is there a precedent set?
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by woof woof ! » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:07 am
el_stinger wrote:Has this ever happened before? I mean, is there a precedent set?
The answer to your question is in Leons post . Read it !
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by Leonmc0708 » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:52 am
el_stinger wrote:Has this ever happened before? I mean, is there a precedent set?
This happened in 2000 when Real Madrid won the Champions League but finished 5th. Real Zaragoza, who would have made the Qualifiers by finishing 4th, were demoted to the UEFA Cup. However, the operative words are "At the request of the national association concerned" (ie the FA) meaning that they could decide not to nominate the Champions League Winners leaving the 4th-place side to enter the qualifiers. I have not been able to find any reference in either the FA Regulations or the Premier League Regulations to which decision would be made but I do note with interest that the FA Website makes reference to this possibility at http://www.thefa.com/TheFA....ion.htm - my guess is that they do not want to address this situation unless it arises but whichever choice they made it would be controversial - especially if the choice was between Liverpool and Everton!
JUSTICE FOR THE 96
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by jonnymac1979 » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:58 am
In 1981 Liverpool won the European Cup, yet finished 5th in Division 1.
- jonnymac1979
by el_stinger » Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:14 pm
Sh1t sorry, didn't see it there, kinda lost interest in reading 50 mins worth of stuff.
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