Liverpool FC Forum

[GYBS]

......it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

Excellent point.... best goal difference, least losses.... all absolutely brilliant. Blinding in fact.

So much so that they conceal that we've won nothing in the last 2 years and that we are the only club to not win the premiership when we've only lost 2 games all season...

Blinding indeed..

did you expect us to go from 4th to winners in one season or did you expect us to make big steps towards challenging for the title and end up a just a little bit short due to a few bad draws when we needed a little extra something to grind out a 1-0 win ?

Im sure everyone wants over night success but how often does that happen ? surely its about building towards success ?

[GYBS]

Where does this insight of the mindset of the players come from ? have people asked the players what rafa is putting in their minds ? it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

To be fair its not just us that has this problem, its all the top 4.

ego's, I am better that playing you

have the other top four teams had the same problem ? too many draws ? bar arsenal who were poor early season most of chelsea dropped points have come against us - 6 and man utd -6 . man utds have come against us 6 points and fulham .

[ConnO'var]

......it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

Excellent point.... best goal difference, least losses.... all absolutely brilliant. Blinding in fact.

So much so that they conceal that we've won nothing in the last 2 years and that we are the only club to not win the premiership when we've only lost 2 games all season...

Blinding indeed..

did you expect us to go from 4th to winners in one season or did you expect us to make big steps towards challenging for the title and end up a just a little bit short due to a few bad draws when we needed a little extra something to grind out a 1-0 win ?

Im sure everyone wants over night success but how often does that happen ? surely its about building towards success ?

One season? Of course not.

5? I certainly do. I don't deny that we've improved this year... and largely with the same players from last year. It took him that long and how much to get there again?

The man's an excellent coach.... brilliant for Spain or Italy where sporting directors abound. In England, we need a manager.

[GYBS]

Do you think we have improved every season - ignoring how well the others off done or where we have ended up but as a squad and players in the squad have we improved ? For me yes massively in the 5 years .

Compared to the team Rafa took over we are light years ahead off it - GH last season we ended up 30 odd points of the top - we have closed that gap every season while challenging for trophies and winning a couple .

The prob we have had over the years is the other teams have improved as well and we have had to improve more than they have - we have overtaken Arsenal - and think we are now past chelsea - one more to go - Unfortunatly it does take time . 5 season may seem like a lifetime but its what Rafa needed to build and we are pretty much there - a few tweeks and we can really go and overtake the one remaining club .

No matter what thou we wont be winning the league every year anymore like we used to do in the 80s we may go two season without it then win it again .

The thing we have now is continuity and we must build on it .

[DrPepe]

Where does this insight of the mindset of the players come from ? have people asked the players what rafa is putting in their minds ? it doesnt seem to of effecting them in an offensive way with us have the best goal difference in the league .

To be fair its not just us that has this problem, its all the top 4.

ego's, I am better that playing you

have the other top four teams had the same problem ? too many draws ? bar arsenal who were poor early season most of chelsea dropped points have come against us - 6 and man utd -6 . man utds have come against us 6 points and fulham .

man utd and chelsea just tear "the rest" of teams apart

look at the stats and both of those  have virtually not lost a point to anyone in the bottom 15 or so clubs 

[ConnO'var]

Do you think we have improved every season - ignoring how well the others off done or where we have ended up but as a squad and players in the squad have we improved ? For me yes massively in the 5 years .

Compared to the team Rafa took over we are light years ahead off it - GH last season we ended up 30 odd points of the top - we have closed that gap every season while challenging for trophies and winning a couple .

The prob we have had over the years is the other teams have improved as well and we have had to improve more than they have - we have overtaken Arsenal - and think we are now past chelsea - one more to go - Unfortunatly it does take time . 5 season may seem like a lifetime but its what Rafa needed to build and we are pretty much there - a few tweeks and we can really go and overtake the one remaining club .

No matter what thou we wont be winning the league every year anymore like we used to do in the 80s we may go two season without it then win it again .

The thing we have now is continuity and we must build on it .

I don't think that we have been on a continuous rise.. no.

Houllier's last team was 30 points off the eventual winners. In Rafa's 1st season, with largely Houlliers players minus Owen, plus Xabi... we ended up 37 points behind the Champions but we won the European Cup.... which begs the question.... were we really that bad as a club with the players we had or were we just lucky to have won that year? The next season we finished 3rd (82 points), followed by 3rd (68 points), 4th (76 points)....

So mathematically speaking.... we've not improved consistently or "every season". The data simply doesn't support that particular hypothesis on a quantitative basis. Subjectively on the other hand..... anyone can perceive whatever the eye chooses to see...

Me? I prefer facts.

[GYBS]

As i said ignore the facts and look at the squads - yes we won the cl first season but at the expense of good results in the league ie better players were rested for the cl to enable us to continue in the competition . the next season we went out of the cl early so we could continue to try and improve in the league which we did - the next season we went to the final of the cl so rested the better players in the league again - last season we went far in both due to havin better players agaiin - same with this season another step towards improving - so as a playing squad the improvement happened every year but had to be balanced out with trophies we could actually win .

Hence why stats dont always tell the full story and never will

[ConnO'var]

As i said ignore the facts and look at the squads - yes we won the cl first season but at the expense of good results in the league ie better players were rested for the cl to enable us to continue in the competition . the next season we went out of the cl early so we could continue to try and improve in the league which we did - the next season we went to the final of the cl so rested the better players in the league again - last season we went far in both due to havin better players agaiin - same with this season another step towards improving - so as a playing squad the improvement happened every year but had to be balanced out with trophies we could actually win .

Hence why stats dont always tell the full story and never will

I never said stats told the full story. Of course they don't.
Merely that facts are more indicative... to my mind of course.... than conjecture and subjective feelings.

The proof is in the pudding..... and the pudding has been empty of trinkets for 2 years and has not improved consistently in either size or taste in the last 5 years bar the last one. I don't really like daydreaming about the trinkets that MAY have been in past puddings...

[GYBS]

But surely you can improve without winning trophies thou cant you ? we have improved massively this season and not won anything ? we improved last season and didnt win anything , improved the season before and got to the cl final - improved the season before and won the fa cup and improved in his first season and won the cl .

Like i said you have to look at each season and what was going on and the trophies we could realistically go for . This was prob the first season we could actually go for the title while also being competitive in the cl .

[ConnO'var]

But surely you can improve without winning trophies thou cant you ? we have improved massively this season and not won anything ? we improved last season and didnt win anything , improved the season before and got to the cl final - improved the season before and won the fa cup and improved in his first season and won the cl .

Like i said you have to look at each season and what was going on and the trophies we could realistically go for . This was prob the first season we could actually go for the title while also being competitive in the cl .

The "trinkets" I speak of are not merely trophies.... I mustn't have been very clear cause you clearly missed the point. Said trinkets also include our league positions and points scored..... The data doesn't add up to the conclusion you've drawn.

The last 3 seasons.... we've improved against the top 10..... but we consistently perform much more poorly against the bottom 10 as compared to the rest of the big 4 who more often than not simply walk all over them.

That's a sign of continuous improvement? Bit cagey, that argument. Of course the other big clubs have also improved but we struggle against the might of relegation fodder. Either, those clubs have come a long way or the gaffer still hasn't worked out how to win these bread and butter games.

Do the maths..... see what would have happened if we reversed the draws and took losses against Man Utd and Chelsea.

[GYBS]

Hence why i keep saying in terms of the playing squad we have had we have improved over the years - each season as a playing squad we have got better and no longer have the biscans and le tallecs and cheyrous etc - Yes work still needs to be done but it improves every season - maybe not at the rate that some want but rome wasnt built in a day just like man utd had to build over a period of about 6 years to start winning leagues etc .

[Judge]

Hence why i keep saying in terms of the playing squad we have had we have improved over the years - each season as a playing squad we have got better and no longer have the biscans and le tallecs and cheyrous etc - Yes work still needs to be done but it improves every season - maybe not at the rate that some want but rome wasnt built in a day just like man utd had to build over a period of about 6 years to start winning leagues etc .

rome was built in less than 5 years gybs

[GYBS]

They were still building when i was there last year

[ConnO'var]

Hence why i keep saying in terms of the playing squad we have had we have improved over the years - each season as a playing squad we have got better and no longer have the biscans and le tallecs and cheyrous etc - Yes work still needs to be done but it improves every season - maybe not at the rate that some want but rome wasnt built in a day just like man utd had to build over a period of about 6 years to start winning leagues etc .

I bow to the tenacity and passion of your defense if not your reasoning.

It's been a good discussion GYBS. I'm off to have dinner with me wife.
Cheers.

[GYBS]

Have a good evening mate - good discussion .