Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

Having seen all three of Barca's matches against English opposition this season, I think we are, by far, the best equipped team, probably in the world, to handle them. That's not to say we would beat them in the high stakes environment of a final, but I do think we'd ask more questions of them than any other side.

Despite the mancs reaching two consecutive finals, and us none since 2007, I think we are the best side to cope with Europe. It's taken an ENGLISH club to dump us out both times, I think we would have done Barcelona over two legs but the mancs would have probably got lucky against us in the final

[Sabre]

I can't believe some of the press and man u players were seriously saying things like "if we would have had darren fletcher"  is that serious? Do they know that Barca were without Alves, Abidal, and Marquez?  Their CB pairing was a reject of their own team and a defensive midfielder.

Yes, it's what happens when you're told you're the best of all time and you are ridiculed, and you still don't face reality after the fact.

Those opinions drop over the Manchester fans, but also the rest of the fans. How many English fans put money in Barcelona in the final? not many. Even if the gap of quality is pretty evident.

Barcelona beat them, and no rotation and absences were not the reason. Barcelona had absences, but also had tinkering. Due to the refusal of Keita to play RB, we saw Puyol there were he's a CB, we saw their holding mid Toure in the back, and we saw a young Busquets in the middle.

I think that in the 237 pages manual of rotation we have on Newkit, that's described as tinkering, or choping and changing.

So logically you conclude, that as always, this time around rotation and choping and changing is not the main factor to explain the victories, draws, or defeats.

The main factor has been mentioned by Ace, Red, Bigmick partly, and others. It was a combination of naive tactical arrogance, and a deep gap of quality between the two teams in the middle of the park.

Fletcher, wouldn't have made any difference not to balance the difference of quality, and not to correct a mistakingly approached game by Ferguson. So you necessarily have to conclude the English journos are talking bóllocks.

Again, as usual.

[Sir Roger]

If we'd decided to go with an experimental diamond formation in central midfield from the outset, we'd have got mullered just the same as Man Utd did. Asking Giggs to link up with the slightly experimental centre forward and also drop in, was quite obviously foriegn to the players once it came under the closest scrutiny. Giggs wasn't sure when are when he should drop in, Rooney wasn't sure if his primary role was as an attacker or a defender, Carrick was shown up for what he is, and the whole thing fell apart. I cannot think of a better example and illustration of a manager getting carried away with himself and confusing the players, to such a disasterous effect. It just goes to show that in order to disrupt the rhythm and cohesion of a team, it isn't just WHO plays but it's also WHERE and HOW they play. Had we have gone in with one our more eccentrically styled line ups, Crouch left wing, Skyrtel right back, Gerrard left wing etc etc then obviously we would have gone the same way as Man Utd.

Equally bizarrely, Man Utd opted to sit the back four quite deep and effectively stretch the game. This I think was a combination of arrogance, stupidity and misjudgement. Perhaps they had believed some of the ridiculous press they'd been getting, "best team for thirty years", "best midfield ever" blah blah blah. Clearly though, Inniesta and Xavi are both better than anything Man Utd have in central midfield. It was clearly so on the night, but in fairness if you've ever seen the players play and have even a basic clue, it was obvious beforehand as well. As such, Man Utd ought to have adopted the same tactics which other English teams have adopted with much success against Barcelona. Namely, you compress the game, bite in the tackle, up the tempo, expose their posession and movement to the closest scrutiny and generally spend your energy on disrupting their rhythm. If you do it properly as Chelsea did under the excellence of Hiddink, they don't have a shot for the whole 90 minutes (although they did have one in injury time ). Man Utd's arrogance and silliness led them to engage Barcelona in a festival of football, lets see who can play the game with the most purity, see who can paint the prettiest landscape. As it was, it was akin to a painter and decorator challenging Picasso to a Mural contest. Embarrassing really and had we done the same we'd have got mullered.

Would we have done the same though? A couple of years ago maybe. A couple of years back we left our best striker at the time on the bench in the Champions League final and lost a game which was there for the winning. The fans would be singing "we've won it six times" had we not made that error IMHO. Equally, we played in that World Club Championship thingie and decided that heavily rotating the team for the final was a good idea to preserve the players for the "big" games towards the end of the season. We were eventually defeated in that final by a pub team, but it didn't really matter. These days though, we don't seem to engage in such nonsense any more. Bolo Zenden wouldn't play central midfield at the Emirates while Gerrard walks up and down the left wing like a little boy lost, we've moved on. Equally, I think the chances of Rafa being over expansive against Barcelona are about as big as us signing Joey Barton for a club record fee. So how WOULD we go?

My guess is that we'd certainly score at least once against them, particularly as they had a depleted back four. Torres would almost certainly score, simply because that's what he generally does. They'd probably score as well, after all they are an excellent team. Then, as the game descended into extra time, and penalties were looming, somebody would probably pick it up forty yards out, advance five and then smash it into the top corner. That somebody would no doubt be Steven Gerrard, simply because that's what he does. Then we could sing "we've won it seven times" (if we could go back in time and play Crouch against Milan), although we'd probably need a new tune as the double syllable on "seven" slightly lessens the impact and flow of the song.   

Great post

[dawson99]

I think it's a stupid question, in a summer which will be full of them.
Woulda coulda shouldas just dont float my boat.
Who knows what would have happened? How could anyone know? WE'd play complaetely differently to the mancs, then Barca may have played differently too...

no one can say what woulda happened, coulda happened, or shoulda happened!

[Octsky]

iniesta is class. bleed for the team.

here is something i read: < his dad asked him, "why did you pass to eto'o when u could have scored?", he replied "but eto'o wants to be top scorer in la liga."
a couple of weeks later, his dad asked him again, " why did you pass to messi this time?" and he replied, "he has not scored for a couple of games." >

congrats to the barca team, well done.

[bigmick]

I can't believe some of the press and man u players were seriously saying things like "if we would have had darren fletcher"  is that serious? Do they know that Barca were without Alves, Abidal, and Marquez?  Their CB pairing was a reject of their own team and a defensive midfielder.

Yes, it's what happens when you're told you're the best of all time and you are ridiculed, and you still don't face reality after the fact.

Those opinions drop over the Manchester fans, but also the rest of the fans. How many English fans put money in Barcelona in the final? not many. Even if the gap of quality is pretty evident.

Barcelona beat them, and no rotation and absences were not the reason. Barcelona had absences, but also had tinkering. Due to the refusal of Keita to play RB, we saw Puyol there were he's a CB, we saw their holding mid Toure in the back, and we saw a young Busquets in the middle.

I think that in the 237 pages manual of rotation we have on Newkit, that's described as tinkering, or choping and changing.

So logically you conclude, that as always, this time around rotation and choping and changing is not the main factor to explain the victories, draws, or defeats.

The main factor has been mentioned by Ace, Red, Bigmick partly, and others. It was a combination of naive tactical arrogance, and a deep gap of quality between the two teams in the middle of the park.

Fletcher, wouldn't have made any difference not to balance the difference of quality, and not to correct a mistakingly approached game by Ferguson. So you necessarily have to conclude the English journos are talking bóllocks.

Again, as usual.

I must admit I found the quotes from Ferguson and the like regarding Darren Fletcher funny, pathetic and delusional in equal measure. Roy Keane at the absolute peak of his powers may have been able to influence the course of the match, but even that is stretching it if the Mancs had decided to go in with the same game plan as they did. The simple fact of the matter is that they were tripped up by their own arrogance.

That's not to say of course that if they were to play Barcelona again tomorrow the result would be the same, footballs not like that. Indeed, if they draw Barcelona again next season, I would fully expect the mancs to play a much higher tempo English style pressing game, the same as Chelsea did. Had they have done that in the final there may well have been a different result, but they didn't and there wasn't so feck em in the ear 

Onto the rotational question whcih Sabre has picked up on. Yes it's true to say that Barcelona had to "tinker" just the same as Man Utd ended up doing, but that wasn't really my point. For a start, other than replacing the colussus which is Darren Fletcher, the Mancs didn't have to tinker at all. Secondly, they replaced, fiddled and nudged in probably THE area of the pitch which has most influence on fluency. Thirdly, despite rotating quite heavily during the second half of the season, "resting", "benching" and "protecting" their players, they looked knackered for practically the whole of the 90 minutes from where I was sitting. It proves to me once again that this issue of "sharpness" in big games at the end of the season isn't addressed by being rested for an hour six months earlier in a Home game against Wigan. What has a much greater impact on "tiredness" in big games is a workable gameplan, a co-ordinated effort which has some chance of success. If you foolishly and deliberately expand the game and then spend ten minutes at a time chasing shadows, you'll get tired pretty quickly regardless of how much rest you've had.

In the case of Barcelona making changes, they had little choice and simply made the best of the situation. The difference between the two teams at the end of the day was that while they cruelly exposed the inadequacies in Man Utd's tactical naievety, man Utd were so busy chasing the ball they never actually got around to asking a question of the defensive midfielder playing centre back.

Sabre is right though that rotation isn't the main or the only reason that they lost, it never is. Just because you go in with a tinkered team, and a fudged formation with confused tactics doesn't mean you are a certainty to lose, it just makes it more likely.

One thing which hasn't really been mentioned is our contribution to Barcelona's success. We've harried the Mancs down the stretch, nibbled away at their ankles, chiseled away at their self confidence. We didn't quite manage to topple them this time as we missed our chance earlier in the season, but we did definately wobble them. We floored them briefly at Old Trafford, Fulham were the beneficeries as the Mancs were still punch drunk the following week, but unfortunately they regained their senses enough to limp over the line.

Barcelona owe us a bottle or two of Cava to say thanks I reckon.

[Owzat]

Not so sure about that bigmick, they have stumbled a few times in recent months, but what - two league defeats and a defeat on penalties to the bitters?

But here's the mac daddy of all stats for the mancs, the media built up a possible title challenge revival after their Fulham defeat, but they won 21 of their last 25 league games. The only game they lost in the CL was the final and the only other cup games they lost were the UEFA Super Cup final and to Derby in the League Cup semi. I'm not sure we were that big an influence, I think fergie's tactics in the final and Barcelona's sheer class were 95% of the cause.

And as I've said before, which of their 99 and 08 finals was convincing? If you take their results against the top four in England plus Barcelona (Champions of Spain) and Inter (Champions of Italy), their record is P11 W4 D3 L4 which is far from convincing. The only away win in there was over ordinary Arsenal in the CL, the rest were home wins. We won four times against teams in the top four in eight games with only one defeat (Chelsea, CL)

[lakes10]

my mate sent me this from a report in Spain

the week before the game Before the game

Reporter " How do you see Man U? are they the best english team"

Messi " I dont (we dont) fear Man U , they are a good side but they are not a Liverpool, we know we can beat Man u  and we can set out to do that"

Reporter " so you think Liverpool are better than Man U "

Messi " Liverpool had it in their hands and let it slip this year, Man U only won due to that"


After the game

reporter "  Did you find it easy, you made it seem easy"

Messi " no game is easy, but we felt that we had control, we knew how they would play"

Reporter " you have shown that you can beat the best English team, how do you feel"

Messi " good but as i said to you before the game Man U you know how to play them, iF WE HAD lIVERPOOL WE WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO BE MORE IN CONTROL, LIVERPOOL ARE A DANGER AND NOW EVEN MORE SO"

Two things i take from that.....he likes Liverpool.......and he likes taking the out of Man U

[Bad Bob]

my mate sent me this from a report in Spain

the week before the game Before the game

Reporter " How do you see Man U? are they the best english team"

Messi " I dont (we dont) fear Man U , they are a good side but they are not a Liverpool, we know we can beat Man u  and we can set out to do that"

Reporter " so you think Liverpool are better than Man U "

Messi " Liverpool had it in their hands and let it slip this year, Man U only won due to that"


After the game

reporter "  Did you find it easy, you made it seem easy"

Messi " no game is easy, but we felt that we had control, we knew how they would play"

Reporter " you have shown that you can beat the best English team, how do you feel"

Messi " good but as i said to you before the game Man U you know how to play them, iF WE HAD lIVERPOOL WE WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO BE MORE IN CONTROL, LIVERPOOL ARE A DANGER AND NOW EVEN MORE SO"

Two things i take from that.....he likes Liverpool.......and he likes taking the out of Man U

Outstanding!     Do you have a source for this Lakes?  If it's bollox I'm not sure I want to know but if it's true it needs to be widely broadcast. 

[lakes10]

my mate sent me this from a report in Spain

the week before the game Before the game

Reporter " How do you see Man U? are they the best english team"

Messi " I dont (we dont) fear Man U , they are a good side but they are not a Liverpool, we know we can beat Man u  and we can set out to do that"

Reporter " so you think Liverpool are better than Man U "

Messi " Liverpool had it in their hands and let it slip this year, Man U only won due to that"


After the game

reporter "  Did you find it easy, you made it seem easy"

Messi " no game is easy, but we felt that we had control, we knew how they would play"

Reporter " you have shown that you can beat the best English team, how do you feel"

Messi " good but as i said to you before the game Man U you know how to play them, iF WE HAD lIVERPOOL WE WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO BE MORE IN CONTROL, LIVERPOOL ARE A DANGER AND NOW EVEN MORE SO"

Two things i take from that.....he likes Liverpool.......and he likes taking the out of Man U

Outstanding!     Do you have a source for this Lakes?  If it's bollox I'm not sure I want to know but if it's true it needs to be widely broadcast. 

just got it sent to me as a email, my mate lives in spain and i not sure where he got it from but i do trust him thats its real.

sort of heard the same thing on SSN this morning.

[Bad Bob]

my mate sent me this from a report in Spain

the week before the game Before the game

Reporter " How do you see Man U? are they the best english team"

Messi " I dont (we dont) fear Man U , they are a good side but they are not a Liverpool, we know we can beat Man u  and we can set out to do that"

Reporter " so you think Liverpool are better than Man U "

Messi " Liverpool had it in their hands and let it slip this year, Man U only won due to that"


After the game

reporter "  Did you find it easy, you made it seem easy"

Messi " no game is easy, but we felt that we had control, we knew how they would play"

Reporter " you have shown that you can beat the best English team, how do you feel"

Messi " good but as i said to you before the game Man U you know how to play them, iF WE HAD lIVERPOOL WE WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO BE MORE IN CONTROL, LIVERPOOL ARE A DANGER AND NOW EVEN MORE SO"

Two things i take from that.....he likes Liverpool.......and he likes taking the out of Man U

Outstanding!     Do you have a source for this Lakes?  If it's bollox I'm not sure I want to know but if it's true it needs to be widely broadcast. 

just got it sent to me as a email, my mate lives in spain and i not sure where he got it from but i do trust him thats its real.

sort of heard the same thing on SSN this morning.

Can Sabre or any of our Spanish members confirm these comments?  If true, they are a huge statement from arguably the world's best player. 

[lakes10]

my mate sent me this from a report in Spain

the week before the game Before the game

Reporter " How do you see Man U? are they the best english team"

Messi " I dont (we dont) fear Man U , they are a good side but they are not a Liverpool, we know we can beat Man u  and we can set out to do that"

Reporter " so you think Liverpool are better than Man U "

Messi " Liverpool had it in their hands and let it slip this year, Man U only won due to that"


After the game

reporter "  Did you find it easy, you made it seem easy"

Messi " no game is easy, but we felt that we had control, we knew how they would play"

Reporter " you have shown that you can beat the best English team, how do you feel"

Messi " good but as i said to you before the game Man U you know how to play them, iF WE HAD lIVERPOOL WE WOULD HAVE NEEDED TO BE MORE IN CONTROL, LIVERPOOL ARE A DANGER AND NOW EVEN MORE SO"

Two things i take from that.....he likes Liverpool.......and he likes taking the out of Man U

Outstanding!     Do you have a source for this Lakes?  If it's bollox I'm not sure I want to know but if it's true it needs to be widely broadcast. 

just got it sent to me as a email, my mate lives in spain and i not sure where he got it from but i do trust him thats its real.

sort of heard the same thing on SSN this morning.

Can Sabre or any of our Spanish members confirm these comments?  If true, they are a huge statement from arguably the world's best player. 

yep good idea, come on Sabre.
I have sent my mate a email to aske him.

If it a press report we should be able to get a link.

[Sabre]

Lemme find the quotes, because I've been away the whole day and night.

Hmmm, I've tried looking for "Messi Barcelona" and "Messi" in the google news tab, but I can't find the quotes.

I've found in the proccess Mascherano saying "Now UEFA has no excuses, Messi is a lot better than Ronaldo", but I couldn't find something similar to this.

Lakes, do you know where did it appear? if it was a live questioning with a microphone it should be a bit harder to find.

[tubby]

It was probably to a journo at the hot zone, ie to press immediatley before and after games. These reporters are often linked to companies who sponsor the CL. There was some other wierd quote that Guardiola dedicated the win to Paolo Maldini of all people.

Anyway if this  is true thats a big compliment.

[Sabre]

On Bigmick's post, I agree Barcelona has something to be grateful to Liverpool. More than the title challenge til the end, I think that what hurted real hard was the result we got in Manchester.

We saw back then how they felt like a boxer hit directly, with dizzyness, but that blow had longer effects in time, I'm pretty sure that in the very moment Eto'o scored, fear was present in the hearts of the Mancs. Fear to be spanked again. An early goal like that destroyed all their confidence, and that's thanks to Liverpool's blow.

I also agree that every game is different, and while I still think the Barcelona midfield and the squad have more quality and skill, I reckon anything could happen in the next encounter. Actually, I never believed in "for sure" predictions at top football level. The next year we could have another english final, or Spanish final if Madrid does things well, or even a Italian team if Mourinho is given lots of funds.