Liverpool FC Forum

[Ace Ventura]

The other position is obviously where Kuyt is playing at the moment, to be fair to him he has done ok in the last few games and was unlucky with the volley that hit the post before Babels goal. He is just not good enough though, with that formation it is vital that we break at speed and pick the right passes each time, he is too slow physically but also isnt clever enough either imo. I would try and get Joe Cole from Chelsea, rumours are that he is not happy, he was dropped for the cup final as well.
If we had someone with his skill, intelligence and composure in that area we would be a far far more potent attacking threat.

It's an interesting point and one which myself, Bigmick and Saint have debated over and over again. We all know Saint loves this "creative second striker" concept.

My mate was making the point the other day that he thinks that the Peter Crouch of '05-'06 is made for that link role, using the argument that the role doesn't require pace as the pace is all around him. It's also a close relative of the role he played in his first season where he was so instrumental in our vastly improved ball retention, not to mention Gerrard's goal haul.

You have to look at the financial situation aswell. For example, two full backs would be more afordable than a top quality link man. Joe Cole would cost £15-20m for example. Get the system working and then add more quality in future. With Babel and Gerrard attacking from the right and left, the need for true wingers becomes less pressing and the priority, for me, becomes full back. Beyond that, I agree that a top class crafty player to play in the hole would be ideal but I want pace on the flanks first.

I see what your saying mate but i dont mean behind Torres, i mean on the right of the three-where Kuyt has played the last 3 games.
Cole would cost alot, possibly too much, not sure how long he has on his contract. I just think he would be ideal for that position.
I dont think Crouch could play there at all, i know there is pace all around him but in that position you need to sometimes get the ball and carry it quickly covering a lot of distance.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

We've won our last three games with this formation. Kuyt/Gerrard/Babel and Torres have all scored in those three games, I don't see the problem. Fans complain when Benitez changes a winning side, now he's taking stick for NOT changing a winning side. I'm not a fan of Benitez, but he's found a formation that works for us and he's coming in for unneccessary stick. 3 games, 3 wins lets just be happy.

[Sabre]

That's a thorough analysis JBG and I quite agree most of it.

For every system you have successful and failure examples, and as you have pointed out it can work for a team of the same league and not for another one, precisely because of the players.

I also think it's a key factor to have proper wing men to provide service to the box, and I agree Garcia nor Riise were not up to it. The problem is Babel isn't up to that role neither. Rafa should have brought a proper left winger provided the injury nightmare Kewell has been through. That's a bit my problem with Babel, not a bad player at all, but not quite what I was expecting for the role.

Many put Valencia's video at Anfield as if that was the common standard of Valencia's game back then. Quite simply the opposition have to do a lot of things wrong so that they don't touch the ball for 40 passes in a row. I can tell you that Valencia wouldn't do that to this Liverpool. What I mean is that probably au contraire of what you're thinking, Valencia had a lot of defensive rigour and took even more precautions than we do.

We rarely play a double holding mid like yesterday, but often a single holding midfielder that supports very attacking players on front of him. The approach of yesterday, with Mascherano and Alonso was more likely to the couple Albelda and Baraja formed, but normally we attack more recklessly than they did. That's why I refuse to accept the notion we're usually a defensive team.

[Judge]

Can't believe I'm dragging this up after two years but I feel it's relevant

perks as mod i suppose 

[JC_81]

To be honest, we can go on about formations and full backs all day, the bottom line is that we have only got one striker (Torres) who sticks the ball in the net regularly and we lack a real quality, consistent winger.

Just like the last 2 summers unfortunately, we need to find solutions for up front and out wide and I wouldn't consider signing ANY players for other positions until this is sorted out.

I don't care if Rafinha is a quality full back or not, unless we have a huge transfer budget this summer I'd forget about him.

[JoeTerp]

Still trying to conceptualize Bigmick's vision of the future:
                                          Reina
                       Carra                             Agger
  Rafinha             Mascherano                  Alonso           Insua
               
                    Babel                  Gerrard             Silva
                                             Torres
for a team that we have now we could try:
                                           Reina
  Arbeloa              Carra                       Agger            Aurelio
                     Mascherano                      Alonso
          Gerrard                       Lucas                  Babel
                                            Torres

[LFC2007]

FFS! I started reading it unaware of the date of the initial post. Only until I reached BigMick's post did I notice the date

[Scottbot]

This set-up seems to be working quite well at the moment although i would argue that Rafa has probably stumbled across it to some extent. I get the impression it's a little bit of a 'last throw of the dice' in so far as this season goes and it might just see us through to a more successful final 3rd of the season. It's a formation that makes sense right now because;

1) It frees up Gerrard to pretty much go where he wants. He's our best player (still) and i agree with St.Mick, he's wasted as 1 of a midfield central 2. We've seen Gerrard running with the ball a lot more these past few games, not getting it and giving it (Alonso style) as he has for much of this season.

2) Babel has less defensive responsibility (something he still struggles with) and a little more freedom to move in this formation. He was excellent against Bolton and is benefiting from the extra attention Torres and Gerrard are receiving.

3) This formation DOES'NT compromise Rafa's defensive principles. Two holding-mids and the (excellent) work-rate of Kuyt from wide-right make sure of this.

4) We're (rarely) not a fluid team to watch under Rafa and never have been. This set-up is less rigid than a 4-4-2 and you saw Gerrard popping up on the right a few times yesterday and both Kuyt and Babel got themselves into central areas and shooting positions. in fact Kuyt seems to get into these positions more often from wide-right than when he starts up front (a real head-scratcher!)

5) Although Baros did it with limited success in 2005, Torres is actually capable of playing as a lone front-man. His quickness, mobility and the intelligence of his running mean he occupies the attention of the entire back-four (at various times) for 90 minutes. Not many players can do this. He's also intelligent enough to drop deep, face-up and run at defenders and strong enough so that the middies can bounce the ball into him and know they will get it back.

However, I still think we may struggle to break sides down at Anfield playing this formation with our current personnel. I would certainly look to replace Kuyt with Gerrard on the right hand side and ask Yossi to play behind Torres. This would provide the guile and trickery (not necessarily all of it!) needed to break down more organised defenses.

As for the long-term? Can we win the title playing this way? Yes. But not with these players. Our wide players simply aren't up to it. Pennant, Kewell, Bennayoun, Finnan, Arbeloa, Riise, Aurelio are all a little short for me. Babel is starting to look like a keeper but where do you play him? I said earlier in the season I liked him on the right hand-side but he's playing well from the left at the moment. Some want to see him play up-front but i sense they have a long wait, maybe he could back up Torres but they will NEVER play together (regularly) under Benitez. He looks good cutting in from the left firing in shots but he's incredibly one footed and the better full-backs (with support from the middies) will simply show him onto his weaker foot.

Quite simply we need a wide player of GENUINE quality to make this (or any other) formation work. I like Lucas, Babel is coming on and Yossi is a handy player to have in the ranks but It would (for me) have been far wiser to splash that cash on a proven commodity like Queresma (I love this player) or perhaps a David Silva type. I still think we could clear the decks a bit in the summer and have enough money to bring in a quality wide-man and a quality full-back. The spine of the team looks good but we need match-winners out wide if we are ever to win in the league.

[Scottbot]

Good to see the manager sticking with the same tactics and the same front 4 (Kuyt, Babel, Gerrard and Torres) for the 4th game running. Seems to be paying off

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Good to see the manager sticking with the same tactics and the same front 4 (Kuyt, Babel, Gerrard and Torres) for the 4th game running. Seems to be paying off

If we keep this formation (hopefully we do) for next season...where does it leave this summer's forward signing. For arguements sake we bring in David Villa...would he and Torres be able to play together in this 4-2-3-1 formation?

[Scottbot]

Good to see the manager sticking with the same tactics and the same front 4 (Kuyt, Babel, Gerrard and Torres) for the 4th game running. Seems to be paying off

If we keep this formation (hopefully we do) for next season...where does it leave this summer's forward signing. For arguements sake we bring in David Villa...would he and Torres be able to play together in this 4-2-3-1 formation?

Can't see Villa coming in this summer mate. He would cost another 20-25 mill. Not gonna happen.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Good to see the manager sticking with the same tactics and the same front 4 (Kuyt, Babel, Gerrard and Torres) for the 4th game running. Seems to be paying off

If we keep this formation (hopefully we do) for next season...where does it leave this summer's forward signing. For arguements sake we bring in David Villa...would he and Torres be able to play together in this 4-2-3-1 formation?

Can't see Villa coming in this summer mate. He would cost another 20-25 mill. Not gonna happen.

I did say for arguements sake, but whoever we sign will that fit into this formation.

Any natural forward...would they fit in along with Torres in this formation.

[Rush Job]

Good to see the manager sticking with the same tactics and the same front 4 (Kuyt, Babel, Gerrard and Torres) for the 4th game running. Seems to be paying off

If we keep this formation (hopefully we do) for next season...where does it leave this summer's forward signing. For arguements sake we bring in David Villa...would he and Torres be able to play together in this 4-2-3-1 formation?

Can't see Villa coming in this summer mate. He would cost another 20-25 mill. Not gonna happen.

I did say for arguements sake, but whoever we sign will that fit into this formation.

Any natural forward...would they fit in along with Torres in this formation.

No unless they play wide like Kuyt.
And Scotbot did you read the interveiw with Rafa on LFCTV last week when he said Babel may well end up playing as a striker for us in the future?

[LegBarnes]

Can't believe I'm dragging this up after two years but I feel it's relevant as Rafa has reverted back to using this old Valencia formation in recent weeks with some success imo.

If Rafa is going to stick with this formation there is no point having 4 strikers really. Torres, Kuyt, Crouch and Voronin are what we currently have and I personally would sell at least two of them. In the past i have said move Babel to the centre but im starting to warm to him in the position he is playing at the moment especially if we had a right sided player of the same quality.

If we're going to set up in a 4-2-3-1 then it doesn't matter as much that Babel starts wide. I'd still like to see him get a run up front in a 4-4-2 to see if he is the striker we need for the long term alongside Torres.

If we're developing a 4-2-3-1 as our preferred formation then I'd like to see us sign Rafinha for the right back slot. The Alves ship has probably sailed, but by all accounts Rafinha would be a third to half the cost and is at the level of Alves a couple of years ago when Rafa first tried to buy him. I'd rather not buy a second fullback in the summer since I think Arbeloa has a long term future here, and Insua might be the long term answer at left back (the time is close to play the lad to see what he can do). Finnan and Aurelio should be retained since they both still have something to offer, but they are not the future.

Gerrard in a free role is essential to get the best out of our best player, in my opinion. I think he's wasted as one of a central two - just because he can defend doesn't mean he should defend, in my book. For me the ideal system to get the best out of Gerrard is to have a front three of Babel, Torres and Gerrard with Xabi and The Chief sitting deep and link man in between. Width would come from fullback and the solidity from the centre halves and covering central midfielders. However, the fullbacks would have to be able to get up and down the entire flank all game which is why we'd need at least one new one to make the system work.

As things stand, we've got all the players we need for that system apart from the full backs.

i think so too thing i like about it if u have smart footballers in your team this formation can change with out having to use subs for dif times in a game like you start say this

       GK
RB CB CB LB
    DM DM
RW  AM  LW
      STK

But if you have a smart team you can easy change to a 4-4-1-1

       GK
RB CB CB LB
RM DM DM LM
      AM 
      STK
OR mabye 1 sub to a real 4-4-2

For me its best formation to start a game it gives you options and its no piece of chance rafa enjoys this formation cos we all know he loves options.

I also like this formation personaly because it is great for attack since it works like a 4-3-3 and if you have Wingers that get back to defend its very tight in defence work.

I might add how well kuyt is playing atm in this formation one might say he feels at home in it also babel i say keep babel and kuyt next year still buy a good attacking Wing forward and see what happens cos i personal dont care if kuyt dont score another goal as long as we keep winning and playing class football as we are atm. 

[Red H]

I like this formation a great deal as it gives us the option to change shape within a game. 
It does however rely on the flexability of players, and places much importance on full backs getting forward to avoid becoming too narrow. Oh and having a world class center forward.
If we continue with this I think we should do a few things, a new left sided attacker (no idea, but let's not get a South American unknown)), and an attacking right back (Raffina ?).  I would vastly prefer to see Babel on the right, at least until he develops his left foot.
My only worry is would it look quite as good with Crouch (and I'm a fan of his) playing instead of Torres.