Liverpool FC Forum

[Bam]

One professional club in Britain refused to have a minutes silence this weekend to commemorate the supreme sacrifice by so many to keep this land of ours free. This minutes silence was replaced with a disgusting applause because their fans had threatened to disrupt any silence.

One professional club in Britain had a substantial group of supporters walk out of their stadium this weekend in protest that the players had the red poppy embroidered onto their jerseys.

The fans of one professional club in Britain attacked elderly ex-servicemen last weekend because they were collecting on behalf of the Royal British Legion for this years poppy appeal.

The written media will refuse to highlight this, for reasons unknown.

That professional club - Celtic FC from Glasgow - Britain's shame.


They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

[Bam]

CELTIC opted for a minute's applause yesterday to mark Remembrance Day amid fears that a more traditional silence would have been disrupted by the home fans.
The club, which was hosting Motherwell in the Scottish Premier League, was facing the prospect of protest boos from a tiny minority of supporters.

Most fans, however, joined in the applause for the men and women who have lost their lives serving their country.

The protest was sparked when the Scottish Premier League asked clubs to incorporate a poppy into their strips yesterday, to mark Remembrance Day.

A section of Celtic supporters had planned to walk out 10 minutes into the game to show their anger at the symbol, which they see as supporting British imperialism.

Fans had been leafleted before the game by an organisation called Cairde Na hEireann – a Scottish-based organisation close to Irish republicans – which urged fans to congregate beside the statue of the club's founder Brother Walfrid, which stands outside the main door. Only a few hundred fans did so.

Some veterans, however, had warned that they felt the applause was disrespectful and that they would rather supporters observed a minute's silence.

Major Ronnie Proctor, curator of the Black Watch Museum in Perth, said: "The minute's silence is a tradition in this country and people are expected to respect the silence. I'd like it to continue. I think the majority of people will respect it.

"I've been to Rangers, Celtic, Dundee and Dundee United games and the silence has been respected."

A spokesman for the club said: "These groups do not represent Celtic's support.

"The club, including playing staff, is pleased to play its part in supporting the Poppy Appeal.

"The vast majority of fans share our view."

Celtic is believed to have lost several thousand fans in wars over the last century. Games are regularly watched on TV by troops serving in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This article was from Scotsman.com

[Bam]

"Irish Soldiers in the First World War"
When Great Britain declared war on August 4th, 1914, there were some 20,000 Irishmen already serving in the regular British Army with another 30,000 in the first line reserve.

About 80,000 enlisted in Ireland in the first 12 months of the war, some half of whom came from Ulster. The First New Army of 100,000 soldiers, K1, contained the 10th (Irish) Division which was formed in late August, 1914. It had three brigades. One had regiments with bases in all four provinces. The second was based in Ulster and the third was based in the other three provinces. The 16th (Irish ) Division of the Second New Army was formed in September, 1914. One brigade was from the province of Ulster. The 36th (Ulster) Division was authorised on the 28th October 1914. It was based on the formation and membership of the Ulster Volunteer Force to which a London based artillery unit was added. It contained men from all nine counties of Ulster.

Irishmen also joined Irish regiments such as the Irish Guards, the London (Irish), the Tyneside battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers and the 1st/8th (Irish) Kings Liverpool Regiment. Many also joined other English, Scottish and Welsh regiments, the Royal, Artillery, the Royal Flying Corps, the Medical Corps, the Army Service Corps, and the Royal Navy. Women served as nurses in the Voluntary Aid Detachment in the front line. Emigrants enlisted in the armies of Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa and United States.

Those who went to fight could not have envisaged the changed world that would exist at the end of the War. The reasons for enlisting were as varied as the individuals. Some joined out of economic necessity. Others had the hope that the experience of serving side by side against a common enemy would forge friendships that would transcend the historic differences. Thomas Kettle, the former Nationalist MP for East Tyrone who served and was killed as a Lieutenant in the 9th Royal Dublin Fusiliers, believed that:

“Used with the wisdom which is sown in tears and blood, this tragedy of Europe may be and must be the prologue to the two reconciliations of which all statesmen have dreamed, the reconciliation of Protestant Ulster with Ireland, and the reconciliation of Ireland with Great Britain.”

Important Irish Episodes in the First World War
The virtual disappearance of the First World War from the version of Irish history taught to the first few generations of the new independent Irish state had the result that few are aware of the extent of the Irish participation in the actual fighting. The concentration on the experience of the 36th (Ulster) Division at the Battle of the Somme in Northern Ireland overshadowed the sacrifice of the Nationalist community.

The following are some episodes that have particular significance for Ireland and form the background discussions about the relevance of the First World War to modern politics.

1914 The First Battles
The British Expeditionary Force entered France in August 1914 and advanced to stop the German advance through Belgium and Northern France. The Irish regiments in the BEF were:

Infantry:
1st Irish Guards
2nd Royal Dublin Fusiliers
2nd Royal Munster Fusiliers
2nd Royal Irish Rifles
2nd Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers
1st Royal Irish Fusiliers
2nd Connaught Rangers
2nd Royal Irish Regiment
2nd Leinster Regiment

Cavalry:
4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards
South Irish Horse
8th King’s Royal Irish Hussars
5th Royal Irish Lancers
North Irish Horse

Many Irishmen were serving in British regiments and there were some English, Scots and Welsh in the Irish regiments who had been so assigned because of their Catholic faith.

The first shot fired by the British Army in the War was discharged by Corporal E. Thomas of the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards just north of Mons on August 22nd. On the following day, Lt Maurice Dease from Mullingar, who was serving with the Royal Fusiliers, attempted to stop the German advance into the city with his machine gun unit. He died fighting and was awarded the first posthumous Victoria Cross of the War.

The well-trained regular soldiers fought a number of battles but had to retreat in the face of the German thrust. The 2nd Dublins had their first casualties near Le Cateau and the 2nd Munsters delayed the German advance for a day with a costly rearguard action at Etreux.

The Irish regiments were distributed throughout the British sector and began a routine of alternating periods of days in the front line, days in reserve and days in the rear resting. The routine was broken by the major set piece battles in many of which large numbers of Irish soldiers died.

Some Irish soldiers took part in the Christmas Truce of 1914 when there was a spontaneous cessation in the killing for a short period.

1915 GALLIPOLI
The stalemate on the Western Front prompted an alternative approach to defeating Germany. The capture of Constantinople, now Istanbul, would give a direct link to the Russian ally and a successful eastern front campaign could be undertaken. A British Navy attempt to sail up the Dardanelles on March 18 failed with the loss of several ships. Despite the advanced warning that this gave the Turks, the British and French attempted a land invasion on the 25th April. They went ashore at six locations but the Turkish defence held them close to the beaches. A second attempt was made on the 6th August at Suvla Bay but this also ground to a halt. The campaign was abandoned and last of the troops were withdrawn in January 1916. Churchill, who had proposed the campaign, had to resign from the Cabinet. He subsequently lost his seat in the House of Commons and had to wait until outbreak of the Second World War to return to a position of power.

The 1st Battalions of the Royal Dublin, Munster and Inniskilling Fusiliers took part in the landing on April 25th at Cape Helles which was a perfect defensive location with gun emplacements housed on steep slopes. The naval bombardment failed to neutralize the Turkish defences. The Royal Dublin Fusiliers and the Royal Munster Fusiliers were the first to disembark from the S.S. River Clyde and of the first 200 men to leave the ship, 149 were killed and 30 wounded immediately. The Dublins had 25 officers and 987 other ranks but only, one officer and 374 other ranks made it ashore. There were 637 casualties in the first 36 hours.

The Allies decided to launch a fresh attack against the Turks and chose Suvla Bay, 25 miles north of Cape Helles. The first Irish volunteer unit to go into battle was the 10th (Irish) Division which contained the new service battalions of the Irish regiments. As a result of administrative incompetence, the Division’s artillery had been sent to France and the men arrived without either maps or orders. The Division did not fight as a unit. There was a chronic water shortage and the soldiers ran out of ammunition and had to resort to throwing stones at the enemy. At least 3,411 serving with Irish battalions were killed or missing , 569 from the 1st Battalion Royal Dublin Fusiliers alone.

ST JULIAN, Flanders, May 1915
Near St. Julien, during the second battle of Ypres, the 2nd Royal Dublin Fusiliers suffered near annihilation just one month after the Helles Landings. On May 24th, 1915, around 2.45am, the Germans launched a poison gas attack. The Battalion strength was 666 men. By 9.30 pm, only one officer and 20 other ranks remained.

SALONIKA, October, 1915
On September 29, 1915, the 2,454 strong 10th (Irish) Division set sail from Gallipoli for Salonika to fight on the Bulgarian front. On the 3rd October, the Royal Dublin and Munster Fusiliers were at the front line and were ordered to take the village of Jenikoj which is now in Macedonia. In the attack, they lost 385 men killed, wounded or missing. There is a granite Celtic cross to commemorate the 10th (Irish) Division near the village of Robrovo in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. This complements the ones at Wijtschate in Flanders and Guillemont in France.

HULLUCH, April, 1916
The 16th (Irish) Division arrived in France in December 1915 and was assigned to the Loos sector. The soldiers experienced trench warfare and suffered casualties during each 8-day period in the front line. They were in the trenches at Hulluch when the Germans launched a gas attack on April 27th, 1916. Of the 1980 casualties, 570 were killed and many of the wounded died later from respiratory diseases. The Germans had put up placards opposite the Irish trenches to bring news of the Easter Rising which had begun in Dublin. The Division remained at Loos until August when it moved to the Somme area. The Division had suffered 6,000 casualties (1,496 killed).

THE SOMME, July –November 1916
In an attempt to break the deadlock of trench warfare and to relieve the pressure on Verdun, the British and French launched a major offensive on July 1. The German positions opposite the 14 miles of the British sector had been bombarded with 1.7 million shells since June 24. No resistance was expected when over 100,000 soldiers left their trenches and went forward into no man’s land at 7.30 am. In clear daylight, they advanced at a walking pace in straight lines with 100 yards between each assault wave. They were met with a hail of gunfire which caused 60,000 casualties on that day, of whom almost 20,000 were killed.

The 36th (Ulster) Division’s was assigned a target that included a huge concrete bunker where German troops sheltered, the Schwaben Redoubt. The Division was one of the few that succeeded in gaining its objectives but the soldiers could not hold them due the failures of the other divisions. The losses amounted to 5,500 of whom almost 2,000 were killed. Almost every community in Ulster was affected. Four Victoria Crosses were awarded to the Division.

Irish battalions serving in other divisions took part in the attack on July1. The 1st Royal Dublin Fusiliers, veterans of Gallipoli, went into action in a sector neighbouring the 36th. They had 147 casualties (22 killed) and 64 missing. The 2nd Royal Dublin Fusiliers were in the second wave of the attack, going into battle with 23 officers and 480 other ranks: 14 officers and 311 other ranks were casualties. The 1st Royal Irish Rifles, 1st Royal Irish Fusiliers, 1st and 2nd Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, 2nd Royal Irish Regiment and the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Tyneside Irish Battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers fought on that day.

The Battle of the Somme continued throughout the Summer with little progress. The 16th (Irish) Division captured Guillemont on September 2nd and Ginchy on September 9th. Lt Tom Kettle, MP, was killed while leading a company of the 9th Royal Dublin Fusiliers and Lt John Holland of the Leinsters won a Victoria Cross. The Division had 4,314 casualties (1167 killed).

The Battle petered out in November when 10th Royal Dublin Fusiliers, attached to the 63rd Naval Division, helped to capture Beaumont Hamel, one of the objectives for the first day. It had 50% casualties.
1917

MESSINES RIDGE, June 1917
The 16th (Irish) and 36th (Ulster) Divisions went into battle together to take the Belgian village of Wijtschate in the well-planned attack on the Messines Ridge. General Plumer had a scaled model of the Ridge made so troops could see what lay ahead. He had mines dug for explosives beneath German defences. About 3 million shells bombarded Messines for over a week. The barrage eased just before Plumer detonated 9,500 tons of explosives under the Germans in 19 mines. Willie Redmond, M.P. and brother of John, leader of the Irish Party, died of wounds received in the attack.

PASSCHENDAELE, THE 3RD BATTLE OF YPRES, July 1917
The 16th (Irish) and 36th (Ulster) Divisions were transferred to General Gough's 5th Army in July 1917. On 31 July, the 36th (Ulster) Division took part in the opening attack on the strong German positions to the east of Ypres. The heavy rain, which continued for a month, made conditions for an attack impossible. Never-the less, both Irish divisions moved forward at Langemarck on August 16th. 65% of the leading units were lost before the attack due to heavy German shelling. The 36th (Ulster) had 3,585 casualties and the 16th (Irish) 4,231. Fr Willie Doyle, MC, chaplain to the 8th Dublins, was killed.

The 16th (Irish) Division was in action near Arras and the 36th (Ulster) Division near Cambrai in November. The 10th (Irish) Division went to Egypt in September.
1918

THE SOMME 1918 - THE LAST 100 DAYS
The long-expected German offensive began on March 21st and succeeded in driving the British lines back almost to Amiens. The 16th and 36th Divisions received the full weight of the attack and were effectively destroyed as fighting units. The 16th had 6,435 casualties and the 36th had 6,109. A third were killed.

The battalions of 10th and 16th Divisions were amalgamated and distributed to other divisions on the Western Front. For example, the 1st Dublins went to the 29th Division and the 2nd and 7th joined the 31st Division. The 36th Division remained Ulster in name only as replacements were English conscripts. The Irish battalions took part in the advances which drove the Germans back over all of the territory gained during the four years of war. The 2nd Dublins went into battle near Le Cateau on October 16th, suffering 44% casualties within two days. This was where they had first gone into action in August 1914. The First World War ended within a month."



We should never forget the sacrifice made by all Irishmen, along with all nationalities who fought on the side of the Allied Forces, against the threat of tyranny and repression.

The 16th Irish in particular shouldn't be forgotten.

The land they returned to, along with the political circumstances, was every bit as different as it was for those from the 36th Ulster, albeit for different reasons. 

___

[Lando_Griffin]

The fans in question would do well to remember the fact that not one of them would be watching their poor excuse for a football team if it were not for the sacrifices the soldiers of the past made.

Ignorant ingrates.

[Judge]

agreed lando

[kazza 1]

Its a disgrace. But then its not a surprise. We in Northern Ireland have had this cr@p for years. In the run up to the Royal Irish homecoming parade in Belfast city centre, we had to listen to so called Irish Repubicians on the news saying that the parade should not be happening as its was disrespectful to their men and women who died at the hands of British soldiers in the troubles in NI. They asked the MOD to stop the parade out respect for these people but thankfully it was'nt. Though thay did cancel the fly by. So they decided to have a counter parade!!! Which was lead by Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams. Though I am of the understanding that very few people turned out for it compared to the 1000's that turned up for the homecoming parade.
Members of Sinn Fein and most Nationalists in NI dont wear poppys. As far as they are concerned its a British symbol for British war dead. The Mayor of Belfast, who is a member of Sinn Fein, laid a green poppy wreath on the cenotaph a couple of days before Rememberance day, then went to Dublin. They hate anything to do with Briton and the British goverment but are happy to stand as MP's at Westminster. Though All Sinn Fein Westminster MPs follow an abstentionist policy, meaning they do not take their seats in Parliament. There are currently 5 Sinn Fein MP's who are Members of the United Kingdom Parliament.

These "Ignorant ingrates" as Lando put it, have very short memories. When the British soldiers first came to NI, it was the Nationalists that welcomed them with open arms. Dublin did not want to no about the trouble in the North. Then it all changed. Now they want an "all Ireland". Irish Rule etc.

I was brought up, with the understanding, that the poppy was a symbol for ALL soldiers that died in ALL wars. Which is why I wear my poppy with pride every year and I always will.

[Woollyback]

dirty scumbag football club, dirty scumbag fans. the man utd of scotland

[Dundalk]

I agree that it is a disgrace that they could not be trusted to have a mins silence in aid of remembrance day. However they are not all bad.

[JC_81]

It's a couple of hundred idiots, but Celtic Park holds 60 thousand, so you're talking way less than 1% of fans at the ground disgracing themselves.  I hardly think the club or its fans in general should be getting flak for this.  You're always going to have politics attached to that club and the same goes for Rangers (who ridiculously sing 'God save the Queen' and then boo 'Flower of Scotland'). 

I can understand people being upset by the lack of respect shown, but to be surprised by it is fu.cking naive.

There are a lot of genuine Old Firm fans, but also a large scum element that will always be there imo, and there's little that either club can do about that.

[Bam]

who ridiculously sing 'God save the Queen'

But John what is wrong with them singing that considering the Celtic supporters sing the Irish national anthem ?

[Effes]

dirty scumbag football club, dirty scumbag fans. the man utd of scotland

I dont subscribe to that at all.

Let's remember it was a very small percentage of 60,000 - most
of whom acknowledged the minute's applause.

Lets not tar the whole club with the same brush.

I actually admire Celtic for recruiting players regardless of
their religious upbringing.

Also, let's not forget how they helped our club and fans after Hillsborough. They were immense.
That should never be forgotten.

[GYBS]

The small minority of Celtic fans are fecking mindless terrwats , anyone who doesnt observe the 2 mins silence doesnt deserve to be in this country (England,Wales,Scotland.N Ireland and Eire) and need to grow up very quickly and realise what people sacraficed.

[Big Niall]

I haven't posted in ages as fed up with getting slaughtered if my view on a football issue differs - still check the hot girls pictures though

The poppy commemorates the fallen British soldiers in ALL wars. As this includes soldiers who fought to colonise Ireland I wouldn't remain silent for the men (over many centuries) who did horrible things here.

If the poppy is about the soldiers who died in World War 1, then I would have as much respect for them as any other person here.

[JBG]

The small minority of Celtic fans are fecking mindless terrwats , anyone who doesnt observe the 2 mins silence doesnt deserve to be in this country (England,Wales,Scotland.N Ireland and Eire) and need to grow up very quickly and realise what people sacraficed.

Eire isn't "in this country".

[JBG]

The fans in question would do well to remember the fact that not one of them would be watching their poor excuse for a football team if it were not for the sacrifices the soldiers of the past made.

Ignorant ingrates.

Why, the Germans played football too.