Liverpool FC Forum

by **Big Niall** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:47 pm

I think people are over reacting. I have gone to celtic - Rangers games and being called "an Irish XXXX" or " a catholic xxxx". Whats the difference? It doesn't affect me as I don't have much respect for the people who shout it.

If I was black, I wouldn't be happy about the abuse but I'd play my game, score a goal, win the match and have the last laugh.

Walking off the pitch because the oppositions fans upset you is stupid. How many Fans of english clubs sang songs about the england captains wife? or Munich 58 etc?

by **RUSHIE#9** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:47 am

DISGRACEFUL ACTION FROM ZARAGOZA FANS TOWARDS ETO'O

Tonight during the Real Zaragoza Vs. Barcelona match the ugly head of racist chanting towards samuel eto'o. It actually got to the point this evening of eto'o having to be physically restrained from leaving the pitch by his team mates and manager. I for one wouldn't have blamed eto'o for walking off the pitch at this stage as this is 2006 for gods sake - surely in this day and age the colour of a persons skin means absolutely nothing. It doesn't mean that they are any better a person nor any worse a person, all it should signify if anything is the persons cultural background.

Tonights incident was made evenmore ridiculous by the fact that at the time when the despicable monkey chants surfaced toward eto'o he was stood next a zaragoza player who was also of a similar skin colour to eto'o. In the end justice was rightly served upon those 'fans' (maybe moronic cavemen would be more suitable a term) as they seemingly cost their team the game; after eto'o was convinced that the best answer to the morons was to stay on the pitch and let his football do the talking barcelona ran out 2-0 winners. The perfect answer was served upon these scabs upon football with the goals coming from Ronaldinho and Henrik Larsson - larsson being supplied by a sublime cross from eto'o.

It would appear that the time really has come for the spanish FA and other FA's around europe and the rest of the world to start taking serious action against this problem. The track record of the spanish Fa is pathetic to say the least. Last year Atletico Madrid were brought before the authorities for racist chanting from their fans at their own stadium and after being found guilty they were fined....
€600
This is a pathetic punishment for a multi-million pound business to face. Then we have the case of Luis Aragonez(the ational team manager). The use of racist remarks about a fellow professional as a 'pep' talk to one of the players under his direction is absolutely sickening and when he should really have been removed from his job all he gets is a paltry fine that he would have in no doubt been able to pay off with the small change in his pocket and down the side of his sofa.

I'd just like to make the point here that this isn't a rant against the spanish people as we all know we have many spanish friends who view this forum especially our good friend SABRE and i'm aware that there are unfortunately too many incidents of this kind in many other countries around the world and not just spain.

My point being here that the relevant authorities need to start cracking down big time on this disease in our game and that has to start with heavily fining clubs whose fans are responsible even to the extent of closing stadia and possibly to the point of deducting points and expulsion from competitions. This may be harsh on the clubs but they have to be at the forefront of educating fans and promoting anti-racist messages within the ranks of the fans. Yes the anti-racist message is being promoted on the continental and international front and to a lesser extent the domestic scene in England (i'm not sure about other countries)but when these incidents do occur like tonight then a firm punishment needs to be imposed to show the minority of idiots that racist behaviour will not be tolerated at any level.

by **Sabre** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:01 am

I've seen it live, and I've discussed it with a unknown guy in the pub.

The music in the pub was high, so I actually know what was going on watching the images. Etoo has said with his lips "Ya no juego más", "I won't play this game any more" while he made the gesture with the hands.

He was convinced nearly the throw in line to enter the game again, mostly by his team mates, the refferee who seemed to be worried about Etoo living and the Zaragoza captain.

Marca and As diaries so far, has said that Etoo was outraged, but they treated the matter as if he was a children outraged.

The mate I discussed the issue with, said that a proffesional player must bear that insults, as they all are called "son of a bitch" and things like that, and this was just the same.

I saw there was no point to discuss it in a pub, so I let it go.

This doesn't happen in every stadium of primera. You won't EVER see or listen this in Bilbao, San Sebastian, Vigo, A Coruña, Villareal or second division stadiums like Numancia in Soria. The racists are always the same and in the same cities, and Zaragoza is not one of the worse cities, In Madrid or Espanyol stadiums the situation is unacceptable.

Marca and AS here say that "it's only a part of the crowd", which is true, but then, nothing seems to be being done to avoid this shameful situation.

It's good Etoo has done this little theatre, because as Barcelona player he is, he will have more media cover and wind up than our player Viafara.

Let's see what do we read tomorrow.

About an old JBG comment

I know a lot of Spanish people and the Spanish can be really nice and friendly, but ever notice when you are holidays there how African people are really marginalised?

Not everything is our fault since there are thousands of Africans entering Spain illegally (we're the natural beachhead) and there's difficulties to attend them all, but yes, we have a growing racism problem in Spain, new to us.

I'd just like to make the point here that this isn't a rant against the spanish people as we all know we have many spanish friends who view this forum especially our good friend SABRE and i'm aware that there are unfortunately too many incidents of this kind in many other countries around the world and not just spain.

No prob mate, I wholeheartedly agree what you're saying.

by **RUSHIE#9** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:37 am

Marca and As diaries so far, has said that Etoo was outraged, but they treated the matter as if he was a children outraged.

Marca and AS here say that "it's only a part of the crowd"

Sabre mate, I find this not only amazing but in fact very disturbing that two of spain's major daily newspapers is passing it off as nothing more than a minor incident. The point that you make about the problem only happening in certain stadia and cities of spain is still a concern but it's good to know from somebody who isn't being pressed by the british media that it is largely focused in to certain areas of the country. This although still being a big problem is a sign that not everyone is of the opinion that a person who is only different in skin colour deserves to be subjected to this kind of abuse.

by **Sabre** » Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:01 am

Although determined, he was eventually convinced. Perhaps if all the team backed him on that one, they'd make a difference.

After scoring the penalty Ronaldinho wen straight to Etoo to hug him sensibly.

by **Erica** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:32 am

I am completely against racism, and against imitating the sound of monkeys against black players. It is despisable, exactly the same as when white players are insulted, but this does not seem to matter.
Etoo was insulted by only a group of ultras (Ligallo) who have no brain at all. But I must tell you that last year when Etoo scored a goal in our stadium, he went to the corner where the ultras are, and he began to walk like a gorilla to laugh at the ultras. Yesterday he didn't touch a ball in 80 minutes. He was really :censored:

by that, and no by the monkey sounds. He said that he wanted to leave, but he didn't, and when Barcelona scored, there were more people insulting him, but instead of wanting to leave the pitch, he laughed and made a sign of victory to Zaragoza supporters and there is an image of TV, where you can read his lips: Fucck aff you bestards. A month ago, Etoo spat a rival of Athletic Bilbao and a few months ago, when Barcelona won the League, he shouted with a microphone in his mouth in the middle of Nou Camp stadium: ¡Madrid, cabrón saluda al campeón! Madrid, bestards greet the champion!
Etoo is the last black player who can complain about this despisable situation, because he is as good player as a bad person.

by **Sabre** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:03 pm

Etoo was insulted by only a group of ultras (Ligallo) who have no brain at all. But I must tell you that last year when Etoo scored a goal in our stadium, he went to the corner where the ultras are, and he began to walk like a gorilla to laugh at the ultras. Yesterday he didn't touch a ball in 80 minutes. He was really by that, and no by the monkey sounds. He said that he wanted to leave, but he didn't, and when Barcelona scored, there were more people insulting him, but instead of wanting to leave the pitch, he laughed and made a sign of victory to Zaragoza supporters and there is an image of TV, where you can read his lips: Fucck aff you bestards. A month ago, Etoo spat a rival of Athletic Bilbao and a few months ago, when Barcelona won the League, he shouted with a microphone in his mouth in the middle of Nou Camp stadium: ¡Madrid, cabrón saluda al campeón! Madrid, bestards greet the champion!

Erica, Spain is the country of the pretexts. If we lose in the WC, we always have somebody to blame. If that happens in a Stadium, Marca will say that "it's a few brainless twáts, that do not speak for the majority". That Etoo is a twát is well known too, but we can't talk about that to explain what happened.

All this is true, what you say about Ligallo twáts is true, but let's face the fact, SPAIN is not doing everything in his hands to end with this. You know what? Ligallo were not bad guys when they were created, they were a bunch of Students with drums that cheered Zaragoza, and even had good relationships with our crowd. But then, as in the rest of SPain, the ultra right parties with no political representation decided that Football was a good place to spread their paranoia, as they couldn't receive enough votes to get a man in the parliament.

And thus, this hate groups, Independentist in my crowd, Fascists, in yours, has taken power in our sadiums, and speak on the behalf of the majority. And that's unacceptable. And we cannot say "they're a few bástards" forever. The Basque police is fining with 6000 € every PRO E.T.A sign in Anoeta, and you know what? you won't see a PRO E.T.A. sign any more. It works!!!! Is doing the Madrid or Zaragoza police the same with fascist symbols in Zaragoza? Like the Cruz Gamada or Esvasticas? I think not.

We cannot put always pretexts. I Sympathize your opinion becaue I know you're a clever lass, you're antiracist, and you know lots of football and make much more sense than when I was 21. But believe me Erica, we must do something.

by **dawson99** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:36 pm

why is it ok for us to sing about gary neville f*cking his family and this isnt ok? i know it isnt ok but why? whats the diffrence between racist insults and other insults that are just as personal?

by **Erica** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:51 pm

dawson99 wrote:why is it ok for us to sing about gary neville f*cking his family and this isnt ok? i know it isnt ok but why? whats the diffrence between racist insults and other insults that are just as personal?

Couldn't agree more.

by **Sabre** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:20 pm

Oh there are some differences.

a) Range of insults. Both Etoo, Neville, and Okubo the Japanese will receive "I'll :censored:

your mother" or "Hijoputa" insults, but Neville won't get insults concerning his race. "I'll feck ur mother" is a general insult, where as racist insults are directed to specific races. This is the most evident difference, but there are others that are more important:

b) There haven't been "Hijoputas" or " :censored:

" groups of people who has been pursued, exterminated and marginalized, where as there has been Black People, and Jewish who has been killed because of being that, so there you have another difference.

I don't like wars, but if those are to be fought, I hope it's for something. The nazis believed in a super race, and millions of soldiers fought against the nazis, among other things, to fight for freedom, and to fight against this super race ideas that led to massacres. I feel in debt to U.K. , U.S.A and allies soldier for this fight, and what they do not deserve, is the tolerance to racism rise again in Europe as that is what nazis wanted to happen. Or did they fight for nothing, just for we lazy bástards forget they died for our freedom and our values?.

If in Spain there's not so much knowledge about this problem, it's precisely because the wrong side won the civil war.

by **Erica** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:50 pm

Sabre, inside a stadium there are many things people say that they would never say outside the stadium. People shout things at players to try to make them nervous or underperform, because they want their team to win, or simply because they have had a frustrating week at their daily week. And then we have the case of some ultras that insult because their intelligence is very limited.
I leave you the words of a person I like a lot, despite of being the coach of a team we do not get well with. It is the coach of Osasuna from Pamplona. I agree with him, I do not know what you think of his words. He speaks in Spanish and he says that Spanish society is not racist, despite that he has been insulted inside of the stadium more than often:

Aguirre: "El fútbol español y la sociedad española no es racista"

El técnico de Osasuna, Javier Aguirre, aseguró que ni la sociedad española ni el fútbol español son racistas y enmarcó dentro del contexto de un campo de fútbol y en contra del equipo rival los gritos racistas, como los sufridos por el barcelonista Samuel Eto'o en La Romareda el pasado sábado.

"El fútbol español no es racista, porque veo que pasan negros por la calle y no veo que la gente les haga `uh, uh, uh!, tampoco en restaurantes. Se lo hacen al escudo rival", afirmó en conferencia de prensa en Tajonar. En este sentido, explicó: "Yo tengo jugadores negros y hay jugadores negros en todos los equipos y no les hacen a sus negros, les hacen a los negros del equipo rival, le hacen un feo a la otra institución, es contra el rival".

"En ese momento no reparan en el significado del grito, como puede ser `uh, uh, uh! o hijo de p., es lo mismo, pero bajo ninguna circunstancia creo que la sociedad española sea racista y el fútbol está inmerso en la sociedad española y es reflejo social", observó.

Aguirre indicó que ha vivido gritos contra su propia persona, pero dentro del entorno futbolístico: "Yo soy mexicano y me dicen `Pancho Villa, hijo de p.!, pero en el campo. Fuera nadie me ha dicho mexicano vete a tu país, nos vienes a robar, qué te crees!, al contrario, qué bonito hablas, qué chistoso, qué simpático!".

by **Sabre** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:38 pm

Well I rate highly Aguirre as a coach, but I disagree his words, perhaps that's what he thinks , perhaps he says that in order not to enter polemics.

But saying that those insults are part of football and are aimed the opposition team is plainly wrong. If this is about quotes, I advice you to read Ewerthon , the Zaragoza player, who has said he would have walked off the game if Etoo eventually did it. He's black, he was a Zaragoza player, and he felt insulted.

Even AS and MARCA agree that it's untolerable racism, only that i think they're hypocrital, as two weeks ago said nothing about the insults in the Calderon. They have done so now, because all Europe is asking them what's going on, and of course they do not want to be regarded racist.

It's true the intelligence of that bástards is limited, but it's not limited the intelligence of the groups that control those, that put them there in order they appear in TV with those racist songs , and those fascist flags , even esvasticas (not Zaragoza the latter, but yes in Calderon).

And those bástards should be removed from behind the goals, and simply, the authorities are not doing enough to achieve this. We don't help neither if we start considering this insults tolerable, if you ask me. I think that the differences that I've stated are quite important.

Saying Spain is racist is not said by someone who doesn't love Spain, but that wants a better Spain. There are many kind of racists, the most aggressive or them are a huge minority, but there are racism to some extent, and that must be removed.

by **dawson99** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:39 pm

all im saying is why is racism so much worse than any other form of abuse?

by **stmichael** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:45 pm

It is disgusting, but not nearly as disgusting as the Spanish FA constantly paying lip service to doing something about it rather than actually taking action. 600 Euro fine? F#ck me, I could afford to pay that.

The only way they might have a chance at stopping it is either making teams play three games behind closed doors (thus depriving them of the home fans advantage and three matches worth of takings) or points deductions. Clubs won't do anything to deal with the issue if it's cheaper not to.

I thought all that talk of Spain being "backward" when it comes to issues of racism was very patronising, but I'm not really sure now to be honest. This isn't really about the actions of a few d#ckheads in the stands because you get those everywhere. The difference is that in England, for example, if you get picked out on CCTV for racist chanting, you get banned at most clubs for life. The Spanish FA don't seem to give two sh#ts.

Absolutely pathetic if you ask me.

by **Sabre** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:51 pm

It is disgusting, but not nearly as disgusting as the Spanish FA constantly paying lip service to doing something about it rather than actually taking action. 600 Euro fine? F#ck me, I could afford to pay that.

The only way they might have a chance at stopping it is either making teams play three games behind closed doors (thus depriving them of the home fans advantage and three matches worth of takings) or points deductions. Clubs won't do anything to deal with the issue if it's cheaper not to.

I thought all that talk of Spain being "backward" when it comes to issues of racism was very patronising, but I'm not really sure now to be honest. This isn't really about the actions of a few d#ckheads in the stands because you get those everywhere. The difference is that in England, for example, if you get picked out on CCTV for racist chanting, you get banned at most clubs for life. The Spanish FA don't seem to give two sh#ts.

Absolutely pathetic if you ask me.

Spot on, the problem is that precisely, mild punnishments. And tolerance. Sid Lowe makes an excellent article of what happened in Zaragoza, and he said that AS and MARCA has rise the flag of anti racism. I guess it was yesterday that because they were under suspicion, but today you know what have they done? they've interviewd a black player of Zaragoza who says that those shouts are not racist and are part of football, and what's worse, people thinks that way. In RS forum I'm a minority in those who ask high punnishment for those actions.

Dawson, every form of abuse is bad, and must be combatted, but there are some, like cruelty to children, violence against women, and racism, that must be combatted first, if we wait for other well known problems to be solved, we won't solve anything! BTW, in England you've done more way than us in the correct path: far beyond are the eighties, now the situation is better, and that's due to measures that have been taken

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