Liverpool FC Forum

[friendlyguy33]

Even when we were top on 23rd December there was only six points separating first and sixth and only another two points to United who were seventh. The gap was thirteen points at the same stage between first and seventh in season 2012-2013 and seventeen points at the same stage in season 2011-2012.

My point is that given how difficult those two away games were over Christmas even if we'd taken two draws from those games and beaten VIlla we would still only be fourth with forty eight points only five clear of Spurs.

You say 'only' 5 points ahead of spurs, that is a decent lead, and you seem to have forgotten that if we drew against City and Chelsea then you'd have to take 2 points from the totals they have now.
That would mean -

1. Arsenal.       51. Points
2. Man City.     48. Points
3. Liverpool.    48. points
4. Chelsea.      47. Points

5. Spurs.          43. Points

If we had managed to draw against city and chelsea and beaten villa we'd be still right in the title race and would have a decent cushion for 4th.

We would still be four points behind Arsenal and would have had to beat Villa which I'm not convinced we would have done even if Lucas had started the game in the normal 4-3-3 given how well Villa played, though if he had started that game I think the first half would have been different.

A five point cushion is not really a decent cushion for fourth with sixteen games left. It's better but not decent. Arsenal were seven points behind Spurs who were third and five points behind Chelsea who were fourth with ten games left last season. Arsenal won eight of their last ten games to finish above Spurs in fourth Chelsea finished third.

Whatever had happened over Christmas including if we'd won both games at City and Chelsea would not guarantee anything in terms of the end of the season.

[leeroy74]

If we hadn't of lost all season we'd be top now.

If's... buts... and monkey nuts.

[7_Kewell]

sadly so.

For as much as I respect NESV's ability to run us as a business, they're coming short when it comes to building a title challenging football team. We simply cannot finish outside the top 4 this year, otherwise we'll be pushed back with high profile departures of the likes of Suarez and god knows who else. I mean, how long will it be until other clubs come sniffing around the likes of Coutinho and Stirling?

[eds]

There is no point in playing hard ball when it comes to Suarez with other clubs, re-contracting him and beating your chest to the media that we aren't a selling club anymore IF you aren't going to invest new players coming in and supporting our best players in the process.

The problem I have with FSG and their stupid American financial frugal system is that we have seen it does not work in world football. If Rodgers has made mistakes in the past with signings (and he has made a number) you DON'T tighten the purse strings you silly yanks, you keep backing him until we uncover the next Sturridge or Coutinho. That's what ownership is, backing your manager not hampering his role to the detriment of the squad, club and it's fans. After having signed the woeful s**t we have seen in a red shirt the likes of Aspas, Borini and Cissokho you FIRE the scouting "talent" that brought them to the club and move on. I don't think they actually understand this, it's why we are seeing these ostrich owners bury their heads in the sands so many times; Dempsey, Sigurðsson, Willan, Salah...........

I'm sorry but if we don't finish 4th there is no one else to blame but them. Right now is the moment, seize it Henry and Werner. Give the Rodgers the funds, so he can bring in a decent DM and WB, two positions that aren't that expensive compared to others on the park. The money you will lose in NOT doing this will be much higher than the money you are saving by not spending. 

[Santa]

Stump up the cash OR get the f**k outta here

[ethanr]

There is no point in playing hard ball when it comes to Suarez with other clubs, re-contracting him and beating your chest to the media that we aren't a selling club anymore IF you aren't going to invest new players coming in and supporting our best players in the process.

The problem I have with FSG and their stupid American financial frugal system is that we have seen it does not work in world football. If Rodgers has made mistakes in the past with signings (and he has made a number) you DON'T tighten the purse strings you silly yanks, you keep backing him until we uncover the next Sturridge or Coutinho. That's what ownership is, backing your manager not hampering his role to the detriment of the squad, club and it's fans. After having signed the woeful s**t we have seen in a red shirt the likes of Aspas, Borini and Cissokho you FIRE the scouting "talent" that brought them to the club and move on. I don't think they actually understand this, it's why we are seeing these ostrich owners bury their heads in the sands so many times; Dempsey, Sigurðsson, Willan, Salah...........

I'm sorry but if we don't finish 4th there is no one else to blame but them. Right now is the moment, seize it Henry and Werner. Give the Rodgers the funds, so he can bring in a decent DM and WB, two positions that aren't that expensive compared to others on the park. The money you will lose in NOT doing this will be much higher than the money you are saving by not spending. 

Neither Dempsey nor Siggurdsson have done very well at spurs. Willian was very over priced and hasn't shown anything to say he was worth half what he was paid for. I about anybody here has watched anything other than youtube clips of Salah..

There's definitely been some missed signings, but those are probably not the ones to point out.

[eds]

There is no point in playing hard ball when it comes to Suarez with other clubs, re-contracting him and beating your chest to the media that we aren't a selling club anymore IF you aren't going to invest new players coming in and supporting our best players in the process.

The problem I have with FSG and their stupid American financial frugal system is that we have seen it does not work in world football. If Rodgers has made mistakes in the past with signings (and he has made a number) you DON'T tighten the purse strings you silly yanks, you keep backing him until we uncover the next Sturridge or Coutinho. That's what ownership is, backing your manager not hampering his role to the detriment of the squad, club and it's fans. After having signed the woeful s**t we have seen in a red shirt the likes of Aspas, Borini and Cissokho you FIRE the scouting "talent" that brought them to the club and move on. I don't think they actually understand this, it's why we are seeing these ostrich owners bury their heads in the sands so many times; Dempsey, Sigurðsson, Willan, Salah...........

I'm sorry but if we don't finish 4th there is no one else to blame but them. Right now is the moment, seize it Henry and Werner. Give the Rodgers the funds, so he can bring in a decent DM and WB, two positions that aren't that expensive compared to others on the park. The money you will lose in NOT doing this will be much higher than the money you are saving by not spending. 

Neither Dempsey nor Siggurdsson have done very well at spurs. Willian was very over priced and hasn't shown anything to say he was worth half what he was paid for. I about anybody here has watched anything other than youtube clips of Salah..

There's definitely been some missed signings, but those are probably not the ones to point out.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but you have no idea how these four would have performed at our club.

I would take Willan over Moses any day and Salah over.......nobody    any day as well.

And that wasn't the point I was trying to make (as I don't even think Salah is required at the moment).

The owners seem to get into petty squabbles of how much to pay TIME AND TIME AGAIN and it's going to hurt us in the long run.

[jacdaniel]

A few million in the difference is not really petty squabbles though   

[devaney]

Eds just for one minute lets just assume that you are writing the cheques and that it is your money. Just how bullish would you be when two of the first players you sign as the owner cost you more than £35m after a relatively short space of time. If the Downing/Carroll debacle wasn't bad enough our buying committee then comes up with recommendations to buy/loan an absolute shower of dross that should be nowhere near the club.Every club has failures in the transfer market and that is to be expected. The problem is that over the last few years except for the odd exceptions our failures have far outweighed our successes. Blame the owners as much as you like but they are not the key reason for the position we find ourselves in. They have provided meaningful levels of money that we have simply wasted. Strength in depth has been a problem for a long time and when that is combined with long term injuries to several important players the problem is dramatically exacerbated.

Chelsea are prepared to spend obscene amounts of money on simply changing their manager every five minutes. We are not financially in that position and that has to be accepted. Very easy to criticise the owners but exactly where would you get the money from to finance massive transfer fees. We've been down the route of huge debts and we all know what nearly happened. Perhaps you expect John Henry to get out his personal cheque book and simply give us the money? FSG have already provided some very meaningful interest free loans.

You listed Dempsey as a player we failed to buy. Isn't that clutching at straws. He was useless for Spurs. Willian would simply have gone to the highest bidder. Do we really want players like that. My main gripe is the number of mistakes that we have made in the transfer market and that is what really needs to change.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

I think we will look back at this window as an opportunity seriously squandered, this season the likes of City, Chelsea, United, Spurs and Everton all had to deal with the upheaval of having new managers and even with Moyes in charge there's no way United will have a start as bad as this again. No way will they be losing 5 home games before Christmas again any time in the near future.
Our strikers have had unbelievable seasons and yet we are level on points with spurs who actually sacked their manager and we are only one point ahead of Everton.
IMO FSG should of got the chequebook out and spent big this month, we were riding high in the league, Suarez was on fire and had just signed a new contract and after beating spurs and running city so close a lot of big name players would have fancied coming here.
If we don't finish in the top 4 this year we never will, because next year we will be without Suarez and we will have to compete with the likes of City, Chelsea, United and Arsenal who are all spending £30m+ on big name players.
At the beginning on the month John Henry tweeted the odds of teams finishing in the top four, it was something like City 99%, Chelsea 91%, Arsenal 87%, LFC 61%, Man United 30%, Everton 20% and Spurs 12%.
I think we have been complacent this window, I think FSG thought that 4th statistically was in the bag

[eds]

A few million in the difference is not really petty squabbles though   :D

When you are wheeling and dealing in the world of Henry and Werner, it is mate.......

[SouthCoastShankly]

There is no point in playing hard ball when it comes to Suarez with other clubs, re-contracting him and beating your chest to the media that we aren't a selling club anymore IF you aren't going to invest new players coming in and supporting our best players in the process.

The problem I have with FSG and their stupid American financial frugal system is that we have seen it does not work in world football. If Rodgers has made mistakes in the past with signings (and he has made a number) you DON'T tighten the purse strings you silly yanks, you keep backing him until we uncover the next Sturridge or Coutinho. That's what ownership is, backing your manager not hampering his role to the detriment of the squad, club and it's fans. After having signed the woeful s**t we have seen in a red shirt the likes of Aspas, Borini and Cissokho you FIRE the scouting "talent" that brought them to the club and move on. I don't think they actually understand this, it's why we are seeing these ostrich owners bury their heads in the sands so many times; Dempsey, Sigurðsson, Willan, Salah...........

I'm sorry but if we don't finish 4th there is no one else to blame but them. Right now is the moment, seize it Henry and Werner. Give the Rodgers the funds, so he can bring in a decent DM and WB, two positions that aren't that expensive compared to others on the park. The money you will lose in NOT doing this will be much higher than the money you are saving by not spending. 

Neither Dempsey nor Siggurdsson have done very well at spurs. Willian was very over priced and hasn't shown anything to say he was worth half what he was paid for. I about anybody here has watched anything other than youtube clips of Salah..

There's definitely been some missed signings, but those are probably not the ones to point out.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but you have no idea how these four would have performed at our club.

I would take Willan over Moses any day and Salah over.......nobody    any day as well.

And that wasn't the point I was trying to make (as I don't even think Salah is required at the moment).

The owners seem to get into petty squabbles of how much to pay TIME AND TIME AGAIN and it's going to hurt us in the long run.

FSG have made it clear that each one of the franchise's are self sufficient. What the Red Sox spend has no impact or effect on our ability to spend. So throw away your "American frugal system" theory - it makes no sense.

Our spending ability is a direct result of:

1) Having owners who aren't benevolent investors. As such we aren't some Saudi prince or Russian oil tycoon plaything with endless cash to spend. This leavesa us in the bucket of every other club who has to reinvest what we make. Spurs are no different (and before you come back with the "but spurs spent loads last season" argument - those funds came from the Bale sale), the same applies to Everton and Arsenal.

Chelsea and City are funded benevolently and a different kettle of fish. United are heavily in debt and increasing that debt season per season.

2) FFPR. Despite the cynicism that the FFPR drew when it was launched a few seasons back, the rules are starting to bite. There are rumours circling that we are £10M short of the FFPR threshold that if we exceed this we would be punished in the form of sanctions or bans. If it is true it goes a long way in explaining our transfer frugality and use of the loan market for squad improvements. Bear in mind that whilst clubs in the CL continue to flaunt this rule they still consider it a threat - both City and Chelsea, despite massive spending, have also embarked on a swathe of sponsorship deals to offset their spending. Combine this with CL revenue and you see that their spending ability is that much higher.

Regarding us, we also have embarked on revenue maximising sponsorship deals, a definite strength in our bow. Our achilles heel is the absence of CL money (to the tune of at least £30M per season - £20M TV money + £10M group stage prize money. Winning it gets you an additional £20M across the KO stages). Our need for new players to secure CL football and the fact that overspending against the FFPR may result in denial of CL football is a catch 22 situation we have no real power to fix.

2017 is the D-Day of the FFPR. That season is the zero loss break even season, where by all teams registered to play in european competitions MUST not post a loss. As we work towards this season the playing field levels somewhat, and our position as a global brand starts to pay dividends over other less represented clubs.

City are taking this very seriously, they already have a new MLS club under their wing. Combine this with their Aussie club they have invested in and they are starting to create a global brand that has the potential to plug the funding hole that the FFPR will impose on them.

Liverpool are in a no win situation when it comes to funding. We should all be happy that we have a manager who is getting massive value from a comparatively weaker squad, and the fact that we have some truly world class players in Coutinho, Gerrard and Suarez. This season is do or die and I truly hope we do take some risk in the transfer market in the coming days, I would be amazed if we didn't sign anyone.

[eds]

Eds just for one minute lets just assume that you are writing the cheques and that it is your money. Just how bullish would you be when two of the first players you sign as the owner cost you more than £35m after a relatively short space of time. If the Downing/Carroll debacle wasn't bad enough our buying committee then comes up with recommendations to buy/loan an absolute shower of dross that should be nowhere near the club.Every club has failures in the transfer market and that is to be expected. The problem is that over the last few years except for the odd exceptions our failures have far outweighed our successes. Blame the owners as much as you like but they are not the key reason for the position we find ourselves in. They have provided meaningful levels of money that we have simply wasted. Strength in depth has been a problem for a long time and when that is combined with long term injuries to several important players the problem is dramatically exacerbated.

Chelsea are prepared to spend obscene amounts of money on simply changing their manager every five minutes. We are not financially in that position and that has to be accepted. Very easy to criticise the owners but exactly where would you get the money from to finance massive transfer fees. We've been down the route of huge debts and we all know what nearly happened. Perhaps you expect John Henry to get out his personal cheque book and simply give us the money? FSG have already provided some very meaningful interest free loans.

You listed Dempsey as a player we failed to buy. Isn't that clutching at straws. He was useless for Spurs. Willian would simply have gone to the highest bidder. Do we really want players like that. My main gripe is the number of mistakes that we have made in the transfer market and that is what really needs to change.

I think there is a few things you are missing here that we actually agree and disagree on.

First if I was the owners and had spent 35 million pounds on two duds and from then on continued to bury my head in the sand at any other large transfers that came my way, I would put my hand up, admit I got into the wrong sport and sell the club to someone that would take the club forward. At this stage I'm still not convinced Henry and Werner are the right people to do this from the four examples I have given. I really don't care which players they were, the point I am making is that in this day and age, the process we have in place of squabbling over the last 1 or 2m is blatantly stu.pid and gets you nowhere. I never wanted Dempsey here, couldn't care less about Gylfi as I thought Rodgers was taking the easy road out bringing in another "safe" signing (much like Allen and Borini) and have already made my thoughts clear on Salah, over-rated and not required at this point in time. Once again the players aren't the point I was making, it's the way we continue to do business (over players we apparently want to buy) which is just wrong and will cost us in the long run. Imagine seeing the likes of Suarez play at Chelsea or Manure now because we only offered Ajax 18 or 19m instead of 22m? 

In saying all that, I am not blaming the owners completely for where we are at, a large part of that falls on Rodgers, our scouts and recruiting staff and their inability to bring in players good enough to start for our first XI. If you look at the players we brought in recently it was a completely horrendous window with 20m wasted alone on Aspas, Alberto and Ilori. Money that should have been better spent and has nothing to do with the owners. So where does that leave us?

At this stage we are crying out for a DM and someone that can preferably play RB / LB. We aren't asking to sign Lionel Messi, Ronaldo or Neymar. No, just quality that will improve our first XI and WON'T come anywhere near what United spent on Mata alone. I'm convinced that Rodgers has had this conversation with the owners, he ain't no mug and if we don't end up signing anyone it's the owners fault plain and simple as I will go back to what I said earlier, "if I was the owners and had spent a lot of money on expensive duds and from then on continued to bury my head in the sand at any transfers that came my way, I would put my hand up, admit I got into the wrong sport and sell the club to someone that would take the club forward." 

[Boocity]

I think we have been complacent this window, I think FSG thought that 4th statistically was in the bag

I think your right there

[eds]

FSG have made it clear that each one of the franchise's are self sufficient. What the Red Sox spend has no impact or effect on our ability to spend. So throw away your "American frugal system" theory - it makes no sense.

Our spending ability is a direct result of:

1) Having owners who aren't benevolent investors. As such we aren't some Saudi prince or Russian oil tycoon plaything with endless cash to spend. This leavesa us in the bucket of every other club who has to reinvest what we make. Spurs are no different (and before you come back with the "but spurs spent loads last season" argument - those funds came from the Bale sale), the same applies to Everton and Arsenal.

Chelsea and City are funded benevolently and a different kettle of fish. United are heavily in debt and increasing that debt season per season.

2) FFPR. Despite the cynicism that the FFPR drew when it was launched a few seasons back, the rules are starting to bite. There are rumours circling that we are £10M short of the FFPR threshold that if we exceed this we would be punished in the form of sanctions or bans. If it is true it goes a long way in explaining our transfer frugality and use of the loan market for squad improvements. Bear in mind that whilst clubs in the CL continue to flaunt this rule they still consider it a threat - both City and Chelsea, despite massive spending, have also embarked on a swathe of sponsorship deals to offset their spending. Combine this with CL revenue and you see that their spending ability is that much higher.

Regarding us, we also have embarked on revenue maximising sponsorship deals, a definite strength in our bow. Our achilles heel is the absence of CL money (to the tune of at least £30M per season - £20M TV money + £10M group stage prize money. Winning it gets you an additional £20M across the KO stages). Our need for new players to secure CL football and the fact that overspending against the FFPR may result in denial of CL football is a catch 22 situation we have no real power to fix.

2017 is the D-Day of the FFPR. That season is the zero loss break even season, where by all teams registered to play in european competitions MUST not post a loss. As we work towards this season the playing field levels somewhat, and our position as a global brand starts to pay dividends over other less represented clubs.

City are taking this very seriously, they already have a new MLS club under their wing. Combine this with their Aussie club they have invested in and they are starting to create a global brand that has the potential to plug the funding hole that the FFPR will impose on them.

Liverpool are in a no win situation when it comes to funding. We should all be happy that we have a manager who is getting massive value from a comparatively weaker squad, and the fact that we have some truly world class players in Coutinho, Gerrard and Suarez. This season is do or die and I truly hope we do take some risk in the transfer market in the coming days, I would be amazed if we didn't sign anyone.

*Sigh*

I don't know why you continue to lump into this group of poster boys that know nothing about the game, crying for massive spending like Chelsea and City have undertaken over the last decade or so.

If you think that is the point I am making, then you are clearly mistaken.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, as I have pretty much summarised my points already:

- As you just said "This season is do or die and I truly hope we do take some risk in the transfer market in the coming days" I fully agree and am fearful that we won't buy anyone because the owners have tightened the purse strings to the detriment of our squad, club and fans.

- This apparent rumour of us having 10m left due to this ridiculous and absurd FFPR nonsense, is just that a rumour. Funny that it has cropped up in the last few days and wasn't reported back in December when there were all these reports of FSG being "ready" to give Rodgers the backing he needed in January. Four days out from D-day, where is this "backing"?

- Don't get me started on this FFPR sham, debt riddled and odious clubs the likes of City and Chelsea will continue to exploit loophole after loophole to continue their spending sprees while it gets harder and harder for clubs like ourselves (outside the champions league) to brake their grubby stranglehold on the game. If there is any truth to this rumour then we are already starting to see that. Any way I digress.....

- If we continue to do business where our owners are squabbling for ridiculous prices, they are in the wrong game. We are so close to CL this season it's not funny. All we need is the owners to back Rodgers with 2 decent signings and we will have a very strong chance of getting what we have been missing for a number of seasons, in your own words "30M per season - £20M TV money + £10M group stage prize money. Winning it gets you an additional £20M across the KO stages". Looking at that if I was the owners, I sign the f**king cheque on what Rodgers wants and get on with it.