Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 4:50 pm

I have compared the record of Martin O'Neill at Leicester City with that of Graeme Souness at Blackburn and Southampton.

Transfers Net Spending

O'Neill -£4.16m
Souness - £17.88m

League Record

O'Neill P152 W53 D45 L54 PTS 204 (1.34 pts/game)
Souness P141 W45 D40 L56 PTS 175 (1.24 pts/game)

League Finishes

O'Neill (Leicester City 12/95 - 06/00)

99/00 8th (Prem)
98/99 10th (Prem)
97/98 10th (Prem)
96/97 9th (Prem)
95/96 6th* (Div 1)

*O'Neill took over in December 1995, Leicester won promotion via the play-offs

Souness (Southampton 07/96 - 06/97, Blackburn 03/00 - )

02/03 6th (Prem)
01/02 10th (Prem)
00/01 2nd (Div 1)
96/97 16th (Prem)

Worthington Cup

O'Neill

99/00 Leicester - Winners
98/99 Leicester - Runners-up
97/98 Leicester - R3
96/97 Leicester - Winners
95/96 Leicester - R3

Souness

03/04 Blackburn - R3
02/03 Blackburn - SF
01/02 Blackburn - Winners
00/01 Blackburn - R3
96/97 Southampton - QF

FA Cup

O'Neill

99/00 Leicester - R5
98/99 Leicester - R4
97/98 Leicester - R4
96/97 Leicester - R5
95/96 Leicester - R3

Souness

03/04 Blackburn - R3
02/03 Blackburn - R4
01/02 Blackburn - R5
00/01 Blackburn - QF
96/97 Southampton - R3

by **JBG** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:16 pm

Great stats again Owzat, but are you trying to show O' Neill up in some way?

Remember, Souness made a wad of cash from selling Damien Duff.

O' Neill did a lot of wheeling and dealing, and didn't blow money like Souness did on Grabbi.

by **Owzat** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:20 pm

Even so, O'Neill's record is not that great. I even saw Sunderland in the top 10 while I was doing my research! Even allowing for the money, O'Neill didn't break into the top six and that is pretty average. Considering There have been only a few strong teams in the Premiership during that time and most have dipped at some time, a very good manager would have hoped to have gotten closer. Arsenal and manu have held the top two spots, but Chelsea, Liverpool and Newcastle have all been inconsistent yet the next best teams

by **JBG** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:06 pm

I don't know Owzat, stats aren't everything.

I remember Leicester being very competitive under O' Neill. They were a small to medium sized club who punched above their weight while he was there. Just because he didn't get them a top 6 spot doesn't necessarily mean he was a bad manager.

Sunderland had one great season but then declined spectacularly. As your stats show O' Neill kept Leciester steady in mid table.

Mickey Adams (an ok manager) has similar resources to what O' Neill had and he is struggling to keep them in the league.

by **greenred** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:33 pm

You have it in for O`Neill Owzat,for what reason I dont know.Your entitled to your opinion but you never offer an alternative.Who do you want as our next manager? As far as I can see you want him to be proven at a top premier league club.He should have won the top trophies(not the Worthington cup).And he should have spent big money wisely.Well that narrows it down to three.Kenny Dalglish? been there,done that,bought the King Kenny tshirt.And then he left, leaving Liverpool in the s##t.I still love the bloke but as they say,dont look back.Which leaves us with two.So which is it Owzat,Wenger or Ferguson?

by **greenred** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:45 pm

Leicester and Blackburn arent comparable in financial terms as your spending statistics show.If your ignoring money then you may as well add Liverpool to Souness`s stats.Infact Leicester and Southampton shouldnt be compared either as one is a yo yo club ie up and down between the divisions while the other is a safe mid table premiership club.However,I reckon O`Neills record would still be comfortably superior.

by **Dom1** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:00 pm

nice stats again owzat, but nonetheless i would always choose o'neill over souness!!

graeme has to much of a temper, to be a top class manager!!!!!!

Dom1

p.s: i have to say it again, who needs "opta" when we've got owzat.

by **stmichael** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:00 pm

what o'neill did at leicester was superb considering he was given no money to spend. as far as leicester were concerned, the league cup was not worthless at all. i mean, o'neill actually managed to get the best out of heskey on a regular basis so he must have something about him.

by **Dom1** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:04 pm

leicester are a small club and getting to the league cup final 3 times (and winning twice) is there version of the champions league final!!

.......and all that happened under the o'neill era.

by **stmichael** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:09 pm

he also saved celtic at a time when rangers were wiping the floor with them year in year out. i know he was guaranteed to finish 1st or 2nd but it was turning them into a european force that was his priority. he did that last season with the uefa cup run and is worshipped in glasgow. you just wander what he's got left to achieve up there. he must have ambitions to return to the premiership, hopefully not with man u though.

by **Dom1** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:21 pm

stmichael wrote:he must have ambitions to return to the premiership, hopefully not with man u though.

we'll never know, but the fact is he is destined for greater things than the SPL :;):

by **Owzat** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:59 pm

Greenred et al - I couldn't give a sh1t either way about O'Neill, I say it as I see it and what I see doesn't impress me. Sorry to spoil your delusions, but O'Neill has done nothing, I suspected it before I checked the records and nothing I see convinces me otherwise

What O'Neill did at Leicester was nothing magical, you lot just see what you want to. Fair enough Souness has had more money, but still that Souness's record is modest, so too is O'Neill's. Give a muppet money and he'll waste it - just look at Kermit. The myth that Houllier has achieved huge amounts more than Evans can be dispelled like so :-

Houllier P216 W106 D55 L55 PTS (1.73 pts/game)
Evans P172 W83 D46 L43 PTS 295 (1.72 pts/game)

As for the rest : -

Moyes P74 W28 D17 L29 PTS 101 (1.36 pts/game)
O'Neill P152 W53 D45 L54 PTS 204 (1.34 pts/game)
Kinnear P267 W92 D80 L95 PTS 356 (1.33 pts/game)
Bruce P63 W22 D18 L23 PTS 84 (1.33 pts/game)
Pleat P 114 W37 D33 L44 PTS 144 (1.26 pts/game)
Souness P141 W45 D40 L56 PTS 175 (1.24 pts/game)
Curbishley P179 W57 D50 L72 PTS 221 (1.23 pts/game)
Reid P242 W77 D65 L100 PTS 296 (1.22 pts/game)
Strachan P269 W82 D80 L109 PTS 326 (1.21 pts/game)
Allardyce P102 W27 D37 L38 PTS 118 (1.16 pts/game)

Much of a muchness. O'Neill slightly better than most but not by a significant amount. There is a big gap between what Evans and Houllier "achieved" by spending and what O'Neill did without. O'Neill would not only have to better Evans and Souness, but catch the likes of Wenger and Ferguson

by **greenred** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:57 am

Those stats prove nothing,I dont even know what your trying to say with them.What were Bill Shanklys stats before he joined us? What did Paisley do? Joe fagan and Kenny Dalglish? Sorry Owzat,I know your heart is in the right place but its a load of bollox.

by **Owzat** » Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:08 am

It shows that a lot of managers have achieved the same sort of thing in the Premiership as O'Neill, that his record is not that outstanding.

Sorry Greenred but you're just taken in by the media hype of O'Neill. Where is your evidence that O'Neill is the new messiah? FACT - there isn't any. Turning a Div One team into a Premiership mid-table team is not the miracle you're making it out to be.

The bollox as you put it is coming from you, all you're doing is denying it because you don't want to believe it. If you don't want to accept that those stats show O'Neill did nothing special and keep on about money then what have you proven? NOTHING. Houllier had millions and has achieved better than average, O'Neill would probably do the same

by **greenred** » Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:15 pm

Ok Owzat,your right,as always.O`Neill is quite obviously sh.it,Im amazed I havent seen it before.But your stats have opened my eyes.I will have to ignore the fact that he is the most sought after manager in Britain(apart from Wenger and Ferguson obviously),the fact that he has done a fantastic job at every club he`s managed,the fact that he turned Leicester into a secure cup winning premiership club(just look at the shambles they are in now without him)the fact that he has turned the SPL into a one horse race,the fact that he has turned Celtic into a feared European club despite the handicap of having no true competition in Scotland(getting Celtic to a UEFA cup final was a massive achievment),the fact that he has done it all on a tenth of Liverpools budget(and they still humiliated us in Europe),the fact that he has the rare ability to make players better,to play above themselves,and the fact that every one he has worked with has spoken of him in glowing terms.No i`ll ignore all this and just look at your stats.
You know,I read a statistic once that proved Pele was a sh.it player.Just goes to prove the old saying "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics"

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Souness vs o'neill - Is oneill's prem record that impressive?

Souness vs o'neill - Is oneill's prem record that impressive?

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