Andy Carroll signs for West Ham

The Premiership - General Discussion

Postby aCe' » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:28 pm

RedAnt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:52 am wrote:That's what you'd do Ace? Not me. I'd have Suarez and another supporting Carroll with a three man midfield. One would be a defensive mid. Our wing play has been real poor this season. I'd perhaps play a narrower game. I'd not get rid of Downing and co. I think they'd be good options on the bench for a wider game. With two wide attackers, plus two men running from midfield, and supporting fullbacks, we could actually have some men in the box for a change. Oh, and Gerrard IS the creative midfielder. I'd like a younger option to learn from him and rest his aging legs on occasions.


I dont think theres a chance in hell we'll ever play that style you suggested. Suarez in a wider role is a big no-no imo. He does most of his best work in and around the box and from an attacking perspective, it makes little sense moving our best option out wide to accommodate Carroll. From a defensive perspective, Suarez lacks the work rate and positioning to ever play a wide role and be expected to track back and make a telling contribution down the other end. Essentially, you'd have Suarez drifting inside on AND off the ball throughout the game and not helping our fullback with the defensive duties. Down the other flank, if you do indeed bring in another Suarez-type forward then you have the same issue. The only workable option is bringing in a more traditional winger who tracks back thus essentially turning it back to a permutation of 4-4-2 of some sort.

To answer your first question though, no. Its not what I would do. We had a relatively working formula towards the end of last season and we screwed it up. This season, for large periods we seemed to try different things with varying results. Makes it harder to judge which style of play suits us best. However, throughout the season, what became abundantly clear to myself and many others is that A) Suarez is more a creative force than your typical finisher, and B) Carroll does not fit with Kenny's pass and move style. To try and force the issue would be further wasting everyone's time. We need our best players playing in their preferred positions under a clear and consistent formation to start seeing the best of them. That for me means Suarez playing as second striker and Gerrard playing alongside a traditional defensive midfielder. We dont need 11 work class players to make a strong team, and in Gerrard and Suarez we have a solid attacking foundation to build on. The missing piece for both players this season imo has been a striker who has the intelligence, pace and finishing to make the runs behind/across the defenders. I'd go with something like this:

NEW RW          Gerrard          Lucas          Downing

                                    Suarez
                                  NEW FW

Obviously, Suarez in this role will still need to put pressure on defenders and defensive midfielders but the new role suits his style of play better than him being down the flank or playing alongside Carroll. We need people making runs in front of him rather than behind him and thats the main reason I think Kuyt (who has better movement than both Suarez and Carroll) should start as our main striker instead of Carroll in the big games.   Both Downing and Lucas have enough to do a job when surrounded with better players (regardless of Downing's poor form this season). A right winger with pace and trickery who has no problems carrying the ball is a must imo. All of Henderson, Kuyt, and Maxi have failed to adjust to playing the wide role in a 4-4-2 or a 4-4-1-1 so a new player to improve the flank is needed.
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Postby RedAnt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:46 pm

aCe' » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:28 pm wrote:
RedAnt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:52 am wrote:That's what you'd do Ace? Not me. I'd have Suarez and another supporting Carroll with a three man midfield. One would be a defensive mid. Our wing play has been real poor this season. I'd perhaps play a narrower game. I'd not get rid of Downing and co. I think they'd be good options on the bench for a wider game. With two wide attackers, plus two men running from midfield, and supporting fullbacks, we could actually have some men in the box for a change. Oh, and Gerrard IS the creative midfielder. I'd like a younger option to learn from him and rest his aging legs on occasions.


I dont think theres a chance in hell we'll ever play that style you suggested. Suarez in a wider role is a big no-no imo. He does most of his best work in and around the box and from an attacking perspective, it makes little sense moving our best option out wide to accommodate Carroll. From a defensive perspective, Suarez lacks the work rate and positioning to ever play a wide role and be expected to track back and make a telling contribution down the other end. Essentially, you'd have Suarez drifting inside on AND off the ball throughout the game and not helping our fullback with the defensive duties. Down the other flank, if you do indeed bring in another Suarez-type forward then you have the same issue. The only workable option is bringing in a more traditional winger who tracks back thus essentially turning it back to a permutation of 4-4-2 of some sort.

To answer your first question though, no. Its not what I would do. We had a relatively working formula towards the end of last season and we screwed it up. This season, for large periods we seemed to try different things with varying results. Makes it harder to judge which style of play suits us best. However, throughout the season, what became abundantly clear to myself and many others is that A) Suarez is more a creative force than your typical finisher, and B) Carroll does not fit with Kenny's pass and move style. To try and force the issue would be further wasting everyone's time. We need our best players playing in their preferred positions under a clear and consistent formation to start seeing the best of them. That for me means Suarez playing as second striker and Gerrard playing alongside a traditional defensive midfielder. We dont need 11 work class players to make a strong team, and in Gerrard and Suarez we have a solid attacking foundation to build on. The missing piece for both players this season imo has been a striker who has the intelligence, pace and finishing to make the runs behind/across the defenders. I'd go with something like this:

NEW RW          Gerrard          Lucas          Downing

                                    Suarez
                                  NEW FW

Obviously, Suarez in this role will still need to put pressure on defenders and defensive midfielders but the new role suits his style of play better than him being down the flank or playing alongside Carroll. We need people making runs in front of him rather than behind him and thats the main reason I think Kuyt (who has better movement than both Suarez and Carroll) should start as our main striker instead of Carroll in the big games.   Both Downing and Lucas have enough to do a job when surrounded with better players (regardless of Downing's poor form this season). A right winger with pace and trickery who has no problems carrying the ball is a must imo. All of Henderson, Kuyt, and Maxi have failed to adjust to playing the wide role in a 4-4-2 or a 4-4-1-1 so a new player to improve the flank is needed.


I like your idea, and it's not unlike my own. I don't mean to have Suarez outwide. I thought perhaps behind the front man and slightly wide. Suarez loves to run in from the byline and it if his opposite number did likewise, we'd have two more men in the box straight away, and if we encourage one or both of the non-defensive mids to get fowards, that would mean even more bodies in the opponents box. Yes, we'd have to sacrifice some width and perhaps that wouldn't really help Andy out afterall, but width hasn't worked for us this season. Time and time again we've had one lone man in the box against any number of defenders. That, for me, has been the ultimate failing this year and is why the likes of Andy have looked so bad. Very little service from the wings, and about the same again from midfield. You've seen people complain that we only have a plan A, and I agree. At least with a narrower option we might get bodies and ball into the box more often and we have the wider option should it be needed. I know from experience that it's much easier to get a head and direction on the ball when you have red shirts in your periferal. Andy's been recieving p*ss-poor crosses and been completely isolated when the p*ss-poor cross comes in.
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Postby D___C » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:11 pm

aCe' » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:28 pm wrote:NEW RW          Gerrard          Lucas          Downing

                                    Suarez
                                  NEW FW


Agree with the personnel, but no chance Gerrard in a midfield two. Never worked, not with Alonso, not with Mascherano, not with Lucas.. he is not now, not ever, a passing central midfielder. Wheres the passer? Wheres the Alonso? Thats not Gerrard. He will play in his position advanced of the two central midfielders. We bought a succession of players to replace Alonso... Mereiles, Aquilani, Adam.. none have come remotely close. Until we finally replace Alonso, a central midfield playmaker who can dictate with metronomic passing, we wont feature near the top end of the table.


..............Lucas.......New CMF
...................Gerrard
......Suarez.....New CF....Downing


Javi Martinez, and Roberto Soldado... we had the money for the pair of them, unfortunately we p'ssed it up against the wall.
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Postby Thommo's perm » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:29 pm

RedAnt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:13 pm wrote:
D___C » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:59 am wrote:The best option is a season long loan... for the following reasons;

1.His value is around the 10-12m mark if we sell now.
2.A season long loan to a direct team (especially Stoke) that get the maximum out of him means his value could rise to 15m.
3.Not having him here next year means we dont spoil another season.


Those are the three main reasons why a loan deal has to be the number 1 option. If we sell we wont recoup more than 12. If we keep we have another season ruined with his presence. If we loan we still own the player, he wont be at the club, and his value will get close to 15 (thats if he goes to a direct long ball team namely Stoke that plays his aerial type of game).

I know he was heavily linked with a return to Newcastle in the window, but i cannot see this happening as they wont want to go back to the direct style they played under him (though this is Newcastle).


You're a genius. YOU should write Kenny's report. Wouldn't take long.

This season is f*cked up because of * drum rollllllllllllllllllllllllllllll* Andy Carroll. Recommendation? Loan him out. Result? Next seasons champions!!!


:laugh:
I can see shes growing on you!



By the way
Keep your Fu*king hands off
I saw her first
:glare:
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Postby Octsky » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:19 pm

Jonjo Shelvey tells Andy Carroll To get in the Fookin Box :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... KRYlVJ_EHU

the title said it all.
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Postby RED BEERGOGGLES » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:35 pm

Octsky » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:19 pm wrote:Jonjo Shelvey tells Andy Carroll To get in the Fookin Box :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... KRYlVJ_EHU

the title said it all.


Cue familiar onslaught . :glare:
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Postby 7_Kewell » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:39 pm

Octsky » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:19 pm wrote:Jonjo Shelvey tells Andy Carroll To get in the Fookin Box :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... KRYlVJ_EHU

the title said it all.

it isn't just Carroll who refuses to get into the box...it's almost the entire team. Even when losing to Wigan, we only had 1 player running into the box...
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Postby maguskwt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:56 pm

Octsky » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:19 pm wrote:Jonjo Shelvey tells Andy Carroll To get in the Fookin Box :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... KRYlVJ_EHU

the title said it all.


So a 20 year old player shows a 23 year old player how to play... that shows the football brain that andy carroll has... Funny thing is I've actually noticed this movement by Caroll a few times before and was asking myself was he instructed to play deep? But if he's instructed to play deep, who will be in the box??? Cue familiar onslaught? it is because it is rightly deserved... I could see players like Owen and Torres in this situation, would be shadowing the last defender and anticipating the pass from Shelvey to run onto...

One thing to note is that with some players you just know from the start after seeing how they play for the team that they're never gonna work out for the team. For example, Babel and Voronin and Morientes. They are just never gonna work out for the team. It's useless to give them time... and it is mostly in their head, motivation, more than anything else. I can see Downing and Henderson becoming good players for us but I can never see Caroll becoming a good player for us. He will continue to be in and out of the team, until one fine day, after 3-4 seasons, he will be sold to a midtable club. It is what happened to Babel. And anyone can quote me on this if it didn't become true...
Last edited by maguskwt on Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kukilon » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:06 pm

Yeah the whole team is guilty of that but for a striker to behave like that is quite alarming. Without getting into positions his self confince will never go in the right direction.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:40 pm

maguskwt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:56 pm wrote:
Octsky » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:19 pm wrote:Jonjo Shelvey tells Andy Carroll To get in the Fookin Box :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... KRYlVJ_EHU

the title said it all.


So a 20 year old player shows a 23 year old player how to play... that shows the football brain that andy carroll has... Funny thing is I've actually noticed this movement by Caroll a few times before and was asking myself was he instructed to play deep? But if he's instructed to play deep, who will be in the box??? Cue familiar onslaught? it is because it is rightly deserved... I could see players like Owen and Torres in this situation, would be shadowing the last defender and anticipating the pass from Shelvey to run onto...

One thing to note is that with some players you just know from the start after seeing how they play for the team that they're never gonna work out for the team. For example, Babel and Voronin and Morientes. They are just never gonna work out for the team. It's useless to give them time... and it is mostly in their head, motivation, more than anything else. I can see Downing and Henderson becoming good players for us but I can never see Caroll becoming a good player for us. He will continue to be in and out of the team, until one fine day, after 3-4 seasons, he will be sold to a midtable club. It is what happened to Babel. And anyone can quote me on this if it didn't become true...


suarez was even further back than carroll, he started the move in midfield.
those types of things happen all the time, shelvey had a shot, carroll called him a greedy **** so shelvey said you should have been in the box.
as i said situations like that happen in every game at every club, it`s just like when defenders start arguing with each other and pointing everywhere when someone gets a free header in at a corner, just like when someone passes a ball out for a throw in but gestures to his fullback or winger that they should have been there, just like when a player misscontrols a pass but then gestures to his team mate that he wanted the ball there not over there etc etc
just a run of the mill exchange between players turned into something more because it`s andy carroll.
Last edited by ycsatbjywtbiastkamb on Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Boxscarf » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:41 pm

7_Kewell » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:39 pm wrote:it isn't just Carroll who refuses to get into the box...it's almost the entire team. Even when losing to Wigan, we only had 1 player running into the box...


That's why we're losing matches.

I played football with friends on Sunday against a group of virtual strangers at a near by school using their astro-turf pitch and I found that we scored all of our goals when we had five players inside the opposition box, compared to their three defenders.

If we got more players into the box everytime we broke forward then I am sure we'd have much more goals. I never understand why Carroll drops so deep and remains there while the midfield pass him by in attack. He's far too static for my liking, he's got pace and decent movement, he just doesn't use it properly.
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Postby red till i die!! » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:46 pm

7_Kewell » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:39 pm wrote:
Octsky » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:19 pm wrote:Jonjo Shelvey tells Andy Carroll To get in the Fookin Box :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... KRYlVJ_EHU

the title said it all.

it isn't just Carroll who refuses to get into the box...it's almost the entire team. Even when losing to Wigan, we only had 1 player running into the box...


weve been doing that all season and its frustrating to still see it happening and its the biggest reason as to why we arent winning games.
most of our attacks break down because of lack of understanding and comunication between the players and it sometimes makes us look clueless without a plan.
the coaching set up needs to work harder to get better out of the players and need to do there homework on 2 or 3 players thats going to come in and make it all work for next season.
i do like that shelvey though and believe he's going to be a real big player for us in the coming years.
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Postby maguskwt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:03 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:40 pm wrote:
maguskwt » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:56 pm wrote:
Octsky » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:19 pm wrote:Jonjo Shelvey tells Andy Carroll To get in the Fookin Box :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... KRYlVJ_EHU

the title said it all.


So a 20 year old player shows a 23 year old player how to play... that shows the football brain that andy carroll has... Funny thing is I've actually noticed this movement by Caroll a few times before and was asking myself was he instructed to play deep? But if he's instructed to play deep, who will be in the box??? Cue familiar onslaught? it is because it is rightly deserved... I could see players like Owen and Torres in this situation, would be shadowing the last defender and anticipating the pass from Shelvey to run onto...

One thing to note is that with some players you just know from the start after seeing how they play for the team that they're never gonna work out for the team. For example, Babel and Voronin and Morientes. They are just never gonna work out for the team. It's useless to give them time... and it is mostly in their head, motivation, more than anything else. I can see Downing and Henderson becoming good players for us but I can never see Caroll becoming a good player for us. He will continue to be in and out of the team, until one fine day, after 3-4 seasons, he will be sold to a midtable club. It is what happened to Babel. And anyone can quote me on this if it didn't become true...


suarez was even further back than carroll, he started the move in midfield.
those types of things happen all the time, shelvey had a shot, carroll called him a greedy **** so shelvey said you should have been in the box.
as i said situations like that happen in every game at every club, it`s just like when defenders start arguing with each other and pointing everywhere when someone gets a free header in at a corner, just like when someone passes a ball out for a throw in but gestures to his fullback or winger that they should have been there, just like when a player misscontrols a pass but then gestures to his team mate that he wanted the ball there not over there etc etc
just a run of the mill exchange between players turned into something more because it`s andy carroll.


Well I'm not talking about the exchange... I'm talking about Andy Carroll's movement... and yes we're talking about Andy Carroll because Andy Carroll is Andy Carroll...  :laugh:
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Postby 7_Kewell » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:15 pm

Boxscarf » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:41 pm wrote:
7_Kewell » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:39 pm wrote:it isn't just Carroll who refuses to get into the box...it's almost the entire team. Even when losing to Wigan, we only had 1 player running into the box...


That's why we're losing matches.

I played football with friends on Sunday against a group of virtual strangers at a near by school using their astro-turf pitch and I found that we scored all of our goals when we had five players inside the opposition box, compared to their three defenders.

If we got more players into the box everytime we broke forward then I am sure we'd have much more goals. I never understand why Carroll drops so deep and remains there while the midfield pass him by in attack. He's far too static for my liking, he's got pace and decent movement, he just doesn't use it properly.

Carroll's movement is, at times, shocking. However, i think half the time he's being instructed to sit back....which is a huge mistake, because Carroll is most dangerous when he's in the box. Not 35 yards away from goal.

Personally, i think it's the set up Kenny employs, because no one runs in to the box and, as someone else points out, defending against us is easy. That’s why we don’t get goals, and that’s why we’re sh!t in the league
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Postby Thommo's perm » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:31 pm

Octsky » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:19 pm wrote:Jonjo Shelvey tells Andy Carroll To get in the Fookin Box :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... KRYlVJ_EHU

the title said it all.


Have you got the video where shelvey was told not to let the cross come in that Cisse scored from?
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