Liverpool FC Forum

by **crazyhorse** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:18 pm

Right, I still look on here most days, but do not post as often as most as I only post when I see something new, or I have something constructive to say. I have been thinking about comings and goings on this forum, and the ideas, attacks and couter attacks flying back and forth.

For some time now I have thought that our squad, pound for pound may be as good as those of Chelsea and Manure, certainly on a par enough to challenge for honours each year. Many have blamed the departure of Alonso for our poor showing this term, others the yanks, others Rafa and some all three and other members have proposed other things.

Looking at the three starting line ups I have tried to do a comparrison of each player objectively and give each squad member a score out of 10. Added up you get a total out of 110. I am not going to go further than that, and this is my interpretation of each best starting 11 based on a 442 foramtion over this season. Here Goes

Liverpool

Reina - 9
Insua - 7
Johnson - 8
Carra - 9
Agger - 7
(total 40/50)

Riera - 7
Masch - 8
Aquilani - 7
kuyt - 7
(total 29/40)

Gerrard - 9
Torres - 9

(Total - 18/20)

Total - 88/110

Chelsea

Cech - 8
Cole - 8
Terry - 9
Carvalio(spl) - 7
Bosingwa - 7
(Total - 39/50)

Maloada - 7
Cole - 7
Lampard - 8
Essien - 8

(Total 30/40)

Drogba - 9
Anelka - 8

Total - (17/20)

Team total - 86/110

Manure

Van de Sar - 8
Evra - 8
Ferdinand - 8
Vidic - 7
Rafael - 7
(total - 38/50)

Giggs - 8
Scholes - 8
Carrick - 8
Valencia - 8
(total - 32/40)

Berbatov - 8
Rooney - 10
(total 18/20)

Team total - 88/110

I know that some will disagree with these, but if you were to do this yourself I am sure you would reach a similar conclusion, in that the teams themselves stack up as being very close in terms of potential. We know that Aquilani is still settling, and that the players each club has on the bench make a difference too, but the point is that I am trying to make is that the team Rafa has available to put out on a match day is certainly good enough to compete at the top of the Premiership.

However we are not doing that. We have just lost to Wigan in the league, did not get out of our CL group and look bereft of confidence on the pitch. Our sole goal for this year is the Europa league, but to be honest I do not believe we will win that on current form.

Why after such a good season last year, when we all thought we had a definate title chance this year has everything gone tits up. Alonso left - true but the departure of one player cannot be blamed for this. The money situation is also a factor - but we already have a team of players that is worth or cost collectively over 100 million pounds and all have the talent to succeed. As shown above on paper the ones we have measure up to what is expected - on paper.

The question is what is left - what is left is the manager. It is the responsibility and the basic fundamental job of the manager to select a team of professionals, and motivate and guide them tactically to achieve what is expected.

Over the last season we have seen many more controversial team selections, negative tactics at home, reluctance to play younger players or new signings, injuries to key players, very strange interviews with the press and other things which are worrying.

I AM A FAN OF RAFA BENITEZ. He came to the club and won us a European cup. We have challenged for honours and have showed improvement year on year. However I feel that the time is approaching where the board have to look at the performances on the pitch and see where the problems are. The players look tired, demotivated and resigned to failure. Too many of them seem used to being mediocre when they are not. Read the books of Carra and Stevie and they both say that Rafa is not the kind of manager to praise players - always telling them how they can improve. Maybe the spoiled fragile minds of the professional footballer cannot cope with this, I do not know. But if you compare the press conferences and interviews given by rafa with those by Fergie, Wenger or Others you will see that the others always spend most of the time supporting players and telling everyone that they are the best. You seldom hear this from rafa.

I have tried to make this constructive, and is just my opinion. However having been one of the mindless in rafa we trust brigade for a long time (and the criticisms of him started several seasons ago not just this year) I am coming around to the idea that a change of manager is needed is going to occur to the board soon. None of us has any idea what the atmosphere in the dressing room is, but surely there must be doubts in the players minds about the manager. Too many players have arrived at the club but failed to live up to expectations - why??? just putting it out there, but is Rafa the man manager the players need.....

These are just my feelings on the matter which I just needed to share. I like everyone else am distraught about this state of affairs.

Mods, if this belongs elsewhere please move it. Thanks.

YNWA!

by **heimdall** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:21 pm

So why aren't we challenging then, what is wrong, and please don't say the f'ing owners.

by **JC_81** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:29 pm

You're opening yourself up to all sorts of criticism with this thread mate! :laugh:

Look, not everyone's going to agree on this as you say, but imo you've been a bit generous towards us here.

Insua same as Bosingwa? Never.

Carra better than Vidic and Carvalho? Not in a million years.

Joe Cole no better than Kuyt/Riera? Not convinced.

But yeah there's not a massive difference between the best XI of the top sides. There is a massive difference in squad strength though. And there is a massive difference in performance level due to confidence right now (Gerrard and Torres are nowhere near 9/10 on current form, neither is Carra). A man for man comparison doesn't take balance of the side into account either, for instance playing with two defensive mids which makes us far less offensive. I just don't find these comparisons that helpful to be honest mate, sorry!

by **aCe'** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:33 pm

LIVERPOOL:

Reina 8

Johnson 7
Aurelio 6
Carragher 7
Agger 6

Kuyt 6
Riera 7
Mascherano 8
Aquilani 7

Gerrard 9
Torres 9

Chelsea:

Cech 8

Bosingwa 7
Cole 8
Terry 8
Carvalho 8

Essien 9
Ballack 8
Lampard 9
J.Cole 7

Anelka 8
Drogba 9

Man Utd:

VanDerSar 8

Rafael 6
Evra 9
Ferdinand 8
Vidic 8

Valencia 8
Giggs 8
Fletcher 7
Carrick 7

Berbatov 8
Rooney 9

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:44 pm

Is this another wind up thread?

Can you honestly think that Liverpool have a stronger squad than Chelsea and an equally strong squad over Man Utd. This is like what the red tops do when they want a certain team to rate better regardless of the reality of the situation.

Based on this season what you got wrong -
Carragher 8 not 9
Johnson 7 not 8
Gerrard 8 not 9
Aquilani 7 (do me a fucking favour - your just trying to justify a failed signing), how about 5.

But the main issue here is your comparing individuals not teams. Both Chelsea and Man Utd are more cohesive, have better team spirit and most importantly have a manager they can rely on to make sound decisions.

by **Fauxy** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:19 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:Is this another wind up thread?

Can you honestly think that Liverpool have a stronger squad than Chelsea and an equally strong squad over Man Utd. This is like what the red tops do when they want a certain team to rate better regardless of the reality of the situation.

Based on this season what you got wrong -
Carragher 8 not 9
Johnson 7 not 8
Gerrard 8 not 9
Aquilani 7 (do me a fucking favour - your just trying to justify a failed signing), how about 5.

But the main issue here is your comparing individuals not teams. Both Chelsea and Man Utd are more cohesive, have better team spirit and most importantly have a manager they can rely on to make sound decisions.

So Aquilani is a failed signing is he?? ffs give him some time :angry:

Im fed up of telling people this. HE WILL COME GOOD

by **fivecups** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:23 pm

Interesting thread. If anyone wants to score the full senior squads, or say, the top 21 players of each team that would be more informative I think. Nice thread, though.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:30 pm

Fauxy wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:Is this another wind up thread?

Can you honestly think that Liverpool have a stronger squad than Chelsea and an equally strong squad over Man Utd. This is like what the red tops do when they want a certain team to rate better regardless of the reality of the situation.

Based on this season what you got wrong -
Carragher 8 not 9
Johnson 7 not 8
Gerrard 8 not 9
Aquilani 7 (do me a fucking favour - your just trying to justify a failed signing), how about 5.

But the main issue here is your comparing individuals not teams. Both Chelsea and Man Utd are more cohesive, have better team spirit and most importantly have a manager they can rely on to make sound decisions.

So Aquilani is a failed signing is he?? ffs give him some time

Im fed up of telling people this. HE WILL COME GOOD

Well you know what I hope he succeeds next season but for £15m I want to see more frankly.

It's what they call an impulse buy.

by **JC_81** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:11 pm

Don't usually go in for these comparisons, but if you do then you need to look at the whole squad I reckon...

Liverpool:

GK - Reina 9
GK - Cavalieri 6

RB - Johnson 8 (a generous 8)
RB - Deggen 5

LB - Insua 6
LB - Aurelio 7 (when fit)

CB - Carragher 7
CB - Agger 7
CB - Skrtel 6
CB - Kyrgiakos 6

RM - Kuyt 7
RM - Maxi 6

LM - Benayoun 8
LM - Riera 7

CM - Lucas 6
CM - Mascherano 8
CM - Aquilani 6
CM - Spearing 5

FW - Gerrard 9
FW - Torres 9
FW - Ngog 6
FW - Babel 6

TOTAL : 150

Man Utd:

GK - Van der Sar 8
GK - Foster 6

RB - Rafael 6
RB - Neville 7

LB - Evra 8
LB - O'Shea 7

CB - Ferdinand 9
CB - Vidic 8
CB - Evans 6
CB - Brown 6

RM - Valencia 7
RM - Nani 7

LM - Giggs 8
LM - Park 7

CM - Fletcher 8
CM - Carrick 7
CM - Scholes 7
CM - Gibson 6

FW - Rooney 9
FW - Berbatov 8
FW - Owen 7
FW - Diouf/Macheda/Wellbeck 6

TOTAL: 158

Chelsea:

GK - Cech 9
GK - Hilario 5

RB - Bosingwa 8
RB - Ferreira 6

LB - Cole 8
LB - Zhirkov 7

CB - Terry 9
CB - Carvalho 8
CB - Alex 8
CB - Ivanovich 7

MF - Lampard 9
MF - Essien 9
MF - Ballack 8
MF - Mikel 6
MF - Malouda 7
MF - Belletti 6
MF - Deco 7
MF - J Cole 8

FW - Drogba 9
FW - Anelka 8
FW - Kalou 7
FW - Sturridge 6

TOTAL: 165

No real surprise Chelsea come out with strongest squad.

Will do Man City and Arsenal when I can be @rsed, wouldn't be surprised if City come out with a similar strength of squad to Chelsea...

by **crazyhorse** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:26 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:Is this another wind up thread?

Can you honestly think that Liverpool have a stronger squad than Chelsea and an equally strong squad over Man Utd. This is like what the red tops do when they want a certain team to rate better regardless of the reality of the situation.

Based on this season what you got wrong -
Carragher 8 not 9
Johnson 7 not 8
Gerrard 8 not 9
Aquilani 7 (do me a fucking favour - your just trying to justify a failed signing), how about 5.

But the main issue here is your comparing individuals not teams. Both Chelsea and Man Utd are more cohesive, have better team spirit and most importantly have a manager they can rely on to make sound decisions.

Actually mate the point is that I am saying that on paper at least we have a squad capable of challenging. Remember a squad nowhere near as capable as this won the ECL.

The purpose of the thread is to stimulate a discussion as to why the team, although good on paper is not cutting the mustard and lacks the cohesiveness and cutting edge of our rivals; point being Rafa has had the nucleus of this squad for a long time now and we are deffo lacking. My opinion in iteslf is that Rafa has failed and can take us no further, but obviously we are looking for some reasoned sensible debate here as to why, or why not.

In terms of the ratings I said that they are only rough and my ideas only. I stand by them although admit they are a little rose tinted.

by **fivecups** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:29 pm

crazyhorse wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:Is this another wind up thread?

Can you honestly think that Liverpool have a stronger squad than Chelsea and an equally strong squad over Man Utd. This is like what the red tops do when they want a certain team to rate better regardless of the reality of the situation.

Based on this season what you got wrong -
Carragher 8 not 9
Johnson 7 not 8
Gerrard 8 not 9
Aquilani 7 (do me a fucking favour - your just trying to justify a failed signing), how about 5.

But the main issue here is your comparing individuals not teams. Both Chelsea and Man Utd are more cohesive, have better team spirit and most importantly have a manager they can rely on to make sound decisions.

Actually mate the point is that I am saying that on paper at least we have a squad capable of challenging. Remember a squad nowhere near as capable as this won the ECL.

The purpose of the thread is to stimulate a discussion as to why the team, although good on paper is not cutting the mustard and lacks the cohesiveness and cutting edge of our rivals; point being Rafa has had the nucleus of this squad for a long time now and we are deffo lacking. My opinion in iteslf is that Rafa has failed and can take us no further, but obviously we are looking for some reasoned sensible debate here as to why, or why not.

In terms of the ratings I said that they are only rough and my ideas only. I stand by them although admit they are a little rose tinted.

If you want to keep talking about the strength of the respective 'squads' though, you need to actually score the full squad and not the best starting eleven, as we've hardly ever been able to start with our best team.

by **shawnk** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:37 pm

Sorry mate, this thread is really pointless.
Man to man, we are better than Portsmouth and yet we lost to them.
Even our owners are better than them.

by **Reg** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:02 pm

Crazy, good post mate well done HOWEVER any one of the teams could be 100% but if they´re not firing on all cylinders as we´re no it becomes hypothetical.

by **Sir Roger** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:33 pm

Bit of a nonsense thread this

by **crazyhorse** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:56 pm

The purpose of this thread is to prevoke a little thought. We have on paper a team that should be capable of challenging for the title. The ratings were a little tongue in cheek but i think the point is proved that on a best available players scenario we are again on paper good enough. Why is it therefore that we fall behind when it comes to cohesion and tactical nouse when compared to the other two. And yes the "squads" differ in size and talent available ect ect ect... this is just meant to begin a debate. Look at the number of youth players again showing for Manure, Fergie makes a ponit of surrounding his youth with the first team as early as possible. Rafa either refuses, or does not have the confidence to do this.

To simply reject a members idea out of hand or just call something someone has written nonsense or pointless is a bit nonsensical when you offer no reason as to why, and show no evidence at all that you have even read it properly or even got the point.

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