Liverpool FC Forum

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:57 pm

I dont agree the leagues gone an remember 2005 all but out of it then an all

by **fivecups** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:58 pm

baldricks_cunning_plan wrote:
fivecups wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Much better to be realistic and start focussing our efforts on the cups

Well, I for one will be well fecked off if we don't play our best eleven on Wednesday. I think we can all agree the leagues gone and CL qualification aint going to happen so at least we can redeem the season by winning a trophy.

No soft lad we can't all agree the league has gone. So that's silly even suggesting we can.

Just saying we should have all the big guns out on Wednesday as the Carling Cups our only realistic chance of a trophy this season.

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:59 pm

bigmick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:We're gone for all money anyway so it never really mattered much

Unfortunately so, but there's no reason why we can't have a run at it at least. For a while there it was looking decidedly dodgy for the old top four slot, and while we're not now certainties after winning one game, we're certainly a better spot than we would have been had we lost it.

Imagine for a second if the Madrid game and the effects of its aftermath had happened in October instead of in February last season? We would have walked the league.

We don't know if this game will have that kind of an effect, but I think its certainly possible, to me it certainly feels like a weight has been lifted. Its like when you wear ankle weights, when you take them off, you feel much lighter on your feet than if you were just walking around with your regular weight all the time, even though you weigh the same.

by **baldricks_cunning_plan** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:01 pm

fivecups wrote:
baldricks_cunning_plan wrote:
fivecups wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Much better to be realistic and start focussing our efforts on the cups

Well, I for one will be well fecked off if we don't play our best eleven on Wednesday. I think we can all agree the leagues gone and CL qualification aint going to happen so at least we can redeem the season by winning a trophy.

No soft lad we can't all agree the league has gone. So that's silly even suggesting we can.

Just saying we should have all the big guns out on Wednesday as the Carling Cups our only realistic chance of a trophy this season.

OK you believe that, those with slightly more common sense will realise that the league and Europe are still very realistic.

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:04 pm

bigmick wrote:One argument that such a good performance does expose as being nonsense of course is the notion that we can't possibly compete with these top teams. Whether it be because we are either a) outgunned financially b) stymied by boardroom shenanighans or c) simply not good enough it doesn't matter, all three prongs of the arguement are incorrect.

We are at least the equal of the Manchester United team which took the field at Anfield, and much the better team when Gerrard plays. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever as far as i can see that we shouldn't set our aim at the very least of finishing above them this season. That's sometimes the trouble with excuses, you wheel them out when you need them but on the occasions that you don't, they're shown up for being nonsense.

This idea could be taken and abused to make Rafa a victim of his own success. What if it was only possible for us to beat them because of his incredible managing skills? Also, this also means that Rafa did do a good job at buying players because he bought a team that can beat the Mancs in three straight league games.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:17 pm

Like I said, people over-reacted to the four defeats, and people over-react to one victory (albeit a victory against the Mancs so it's kind of forgiveable). One or two people are coming out of the woodwork and nudging me over my comments of a couple of weeks ago that I thought we were out of the league ("gone for all money" was a phrase I used if we failed to beat Sunderland, but pres-supposing that Chelsea won but no matter). That's all good though, it's all part of forum banter.

As of now though, without looking I would guess that we are around an 8/1 chance with the bookies after beating the Mancs. I wouldn't be having a bet on that myself for a couple of reasons. Firstly, as we have shown we don't have any cover for Torres. Secondly, we have to give the Mancs a four point start from here, Chelsea a six point start, Arsenal a start and manchester City a start. Is it possible? Yes it's possible. We remain one bad result away from the "gone for all money" section. Not doom and gloom, just how I see it. As I said earlier though, that absolutely doesn't mean we don't have the capabilities to at least make a challenge at it. I absolutely think we had a good enough team to have won it last season (we should have infact) and we had a good enough team to have challenged for it in the previous two seasons as well IMHO.

Ultimately there's no shame in not winning it, it's not easy to win. It would be a bit of a shame though if we don't even challenge. Failure to beat man Utd would probably have ensured that couldn't happen, victory opens up the possibility that we still can which is the main thing.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:29 pm

JoeTerp wrote:
bigmick wrote:One argument that such a good performance does expose as being nonsense of course is the notion that we can't possibly compete with these top teams. Whether it be because we are either a) outgunned financially b) stymied by boardroom shenanighans or c) simply not good enough it doesn't matter, all three prongs of the arguement are incorrect.

We are at least the equal of the Manchester United team which took the field at Anfield, and much the better team when Gerrard plays. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever as far as i can see that we shouldn't set our aim at the very least of finishing above them this season. That's sometimes the trouble with excuses, you wheel them out when you need them but on the occasions that you don't, they're shown up for being nonsense.

This idea could be taken and abused to make Rafa a victim of his own success. What if it was only possible for us to beat them because of his incredible managing skills? Also, this also means that Rafa did do a good job at buying players because he bought a team that can beat the Mancs in three straight league games.

All managers and clubs are "victims of their own success" though Joe. If you manage Wigan, as long as you keep them up then everyone is reasonably happy. That's because that's their place in the grand scheme of things. Obviously, if you manage of the big four clubs, the expectation is different.

In our case, we narrowly missed out on winning the title last season. The team which finished above us sold the best player in the World, let Carlos Tevez go and replaced them with Valencia from Wigan, and owen on a free. Rafa is a victim of his own success in the sense that I think it's reasonable for us to expect to make a good go of finishing above the Mancs this season. We've already demonstrated that we are their equal at the very least, so why not?

As for Rafa's "incredible managerial skills" being a significant factor in us winning, I've no doubt that is the case. To pick the team up and produce that performance was an excellent effort, and he deserves all the praise in the World. That the manager is capable of such feats shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, we know he is. Ultimately though, a league season is over 38 games not 1, and often it is the ability to not make mistakes, to get the basics right, to grind it out which eventually decides who is and who isn't Champions.

And as far as the buying of players, the building of the team is concerned, I agree wholeheartedly. We have an excellent and expensively compiled football team, I've been saying the same thing for three seasons now. It didn't take a good performance against man Utd to prove that to me, we have shown many times that we are capable of playing some really excellent stuff. Just as the manager deserves huge credit for putting the bunch of players togehter though, it is legitimate to ask and expect him to ensure that the group plays somewhere near its capabilities consistently.

Nothing would be sillier of course in the aftermath of the excellent performance agains tthe Mancs to say "it's nothing to do with Rafa. he gets no credit, it's all down to the players and the owners". That would be a ludicrous stance, and of course nobody would ever take that tack

.

No, I'm with John Craig. The manager deserves the credit when they turn in a performance like that. He deserves credit when the team challenges for the title or wins trophies. That's absolutely the way it should be, and obviously the same applies in reverse.

by **Sir Roger** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:30 pm

I would like all those reporters and ex players to say publicly that they chatted absolute shi'te for the last two weeks. I would also like andy gray to say at the end of every season that he apologises for the :censored:

hes talked for the previous nine months.
Anyone thinks this will happen?

by **LFC2007** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:39 pm

There's no change in the position of those who want Rafa stay, and there's likely no change in those who'd like him to go (which is moot, besides). Where then is the 'overreaction'? Is anyone 'suddenly' now predicting we're going to win the league? I don't think so. Perhaps it's the excited reaction to a f'ucking great win? If it is, then well, if you can't get excited about beating the Manc's and if you can't live in hope that a six point gap - with 28 games left to play and our injured players returning - might just be able to be overturned....what the f'uck is the point in being a fan? Just to see your predictions 'proven' correct?

Nice revision again, btw.

by **dave82** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:48 pm

i think it is a disgrace that you so called liverpool fans think we should sack benitez,that is not the liverpool way.if we sacked him he would literally walk into a job at real madrid and with money to spend,it would be terrible for football as they would be unbeatable

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:49 pm

LFC2007 wrote:There's no change in the position of those who want Rafa stay, and there's likely no change in those who'd like him to go (which is moot, besides). Where then is the 'overreaction'? Is anyone 'suddenly' now predicting we're going to win the league? I don't think so. Perhaps it's the excited reaction to a f'ucking great win? If it is, then well, if you can't get excited about beating the Manc's and if you can't live in hope that a six point gap - with 28 games left to play and our injured players returning - might just be able to be overturned....what the f'uck is the point in being a fan? Just to see your predictions 'proven' correct?

Nice revision again, btw.

Lets be fair here just for once. The forum was down and out all day yesterday (our time in NZ) so I was singularly unable to come on and jump up and down. I log on this morning, and the first thread I see is "Sack rafa part deux" which is predictably and understandably a gathering of pro's poking fun anybody who dared to doubt.

My initial post on it said that while it was true to say people over-reacted to the defeats (I said it at the time as well) it now appeared people were doing the same after one win. I then (off your good self LFC

) get a bit of ribbing with the "gone for all money" comments. All I did then, as I generally do, was explain why I think what I do. I'm not disputing that it's a "f'ucking great win", nor am I saying we/you/I shouldn't be excited by it.

I said in the earlier post, overturning the gap is "possible" IMHO, and it is. It's not about being proven correct, that doesn't even come into it. At the end of the day, if you don't wish to discuss my feelings on where we are likely to finish, nor my reasoning for coming to the conclusions I have, then don't bring the subject up in the first place

. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

by **dave82** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:54 pm

i always believe that we can win the league until it's mathematically impossible,that is the liverpool spirit and any true fan knows this

by **LFC2007** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:55 pm

bigmick wrote:It's not about being proven correct, that doesn't even come into it.

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:57 pm

dave82 wrote:i always believe that we can win the league until it's mathematically impossible,that is the liverpool spirit and any true fan knows this

An welcome lad , another Rafaelite on me chrimbo list :;):

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:59 pm

dave82 wrote:i always believe that we can win the league until it's mathematically impossible,that is the liverpool spirit and any true fan knows this

Well I always beleive we CAN win the league until it's mathematically impossible as well, in the same sense as Bolton CAN still win it this season. Somewhere in between CAN, WILL, SHOULD and ABSOLUTELY CANNOT though, are different degrees of likelyhood.

Despite myself I find it interesting sometimes to discuss on here the likelyhood of certain scenarios. As the results come in, the tides shift and with them do your opinions. From CAN, to WON'T to POSSIBLY CAN BUT PROBABLY WON"T can all happen within the space of a couple of weeks.

It all probably means I'm not a true fan for daring to consider such things, but I just can't help it.

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