Liverpool FC Forum

by **fivecups** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:24 am

Here's how I understand the lie of the land to be right now.

If somebody signs for the club (Johnson for example), it's not because of Rafa, it's because of the club's history, the fans or the money. If on the other hand they decide not to sign for us and to sign for somebody else (like Gareth Barry for example) it's because of Rafa and the fact he didn't try hard enough to sign him last season.

If a player decides to stay with us for a while (ie Reina or Agger), it's because of club's history, the fans or the money. If on other hand they decide to leave (Like Owen or Alonso for example), it's because of Rafa.

If a player such as Gerrard considers leaving, it's because Rafa hasn't shown him enough love. It's not because our team and results were getting worse by the season. If and when though he changes his mind and decides to stay, that's because of the club's history, the fans, the money, his family, or the Scouse mafia. It's nothing to do with Rafa.

If we go into a Champions League final and are 3-0 down at half time and being completely outplayed, it's because Rafa doesn't understand tactics, didn't play 4-4-2, didn't start with his best 11 every match even though half of them were injured, enforced zonal marking and didn't send roses to the players the night before the match to show them the love. Not, of course, because we were playing one of the best teams in the world, with Crespo, Shevchenko, Kaka, Pirlo, Maldini and Nesta in the starting eleven. If though we go on to do the impossible and win the match it's because of our captain and not Rafa or the half-time substitution of Finnan for Didi Hamaan which nullified the threat of Kaka.

If we play again in the Champions League final, again against one of the best teams in the world, and loose then it's because of Rafa and his lack of tactical nouse. The fact that we got there twice in 3 seasons was because of our Captain, our fans and the money.

If we win the Champions League in Rafa's first season as manager it's nothing to do with Rafa. In fact it's all about Gerard Houllier, who was sacked the previous year after scraping into fourth, a credible 30 points off the winners Arsenal. If that same group of players wins the FA Cup the following season, ditto. If having rebuilt that squad at huge cost, we then win feck all for three seasons, it's because of Rafa...but when we have our best year in the league since we last won it in 1990, with our highest points total, beating United and Chelsea twice along the way playing some of the best football most of us can remember it's because of the Captain, the fans or the money.

If we win a big willy contest with Real Madrid it has nothing to do with Rafa, or his tactical ability, but when we suffer at the start of the season as our replacement for our playmaker which we sold is injured until October, it's because of Rafa. Similarly, if the pre-season run outs against Cricklewood Wanderers, Lando's ladies (?) and Merthyr Tydfill don't have us sharp enough for the start of the season, it's because of Rafa.

If we sign a striker for 20 million quid and he scores goals for fun, it's because he's a world class player who joined because of our history, our fans and the money. Not because of Rafa. If two seasons later we sign another striker for 20 million quid and he can't hit a cows erse with a banjo, it's because of Rafa - he's our manager and the buck stops with him (unless something good happens when it's probably because of our captain). Also, the fact that Rafa didn't want to spend £20 million for him but Rick Parry did the deal anyway doesn't matter. Rafa's the manager and it's his fault. The fact that we lost £8 million selling him back to Spurs is also Rafa's fault (even though we lost around £3 million).

It's all swings and roundabouts, everyone uses events to backup their own viewpoint then someone else uses the same thing to argue the exact opposite. In fact sometimes the same person uses the same event at different times to argue different things as their opinion changes! As Mick says the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It's likely that what happens over the rest of Rafa's tenure will define how we eventually interpret the events of the last 5 years.

by **bigmick** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:18 am

Post of the week mate that, absolute top quality :buttrock

Brilliant. There's isn't a "and I'm not being sarcy either" smiley, but if there was I'd stick it on the end. Top notch.

by **Effes** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:35 am

Will Mick's post, and resulting posts, be one of the most hybridised posts ever?

I like that, "The Hybridised Post"

by **maguskwt** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:51 am

fivecups wrote:It's all swings and roundabouts, everyone uses events to backup their own viewpoint then someone else uses the same thing to argue the exact opposite. In fact sometimes the same person uses the same event at different times to argue different things as their opinion changes! As Mick says the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. It's likely that what happens over the rest of Rafa's tenure will define how we eventually interpret the events of the last 5 years.

But surely Kuyt sucks and that's a constant...

Oh wait we haven't talked about Kuyt for a season now?... :Oo:

by **heimdall** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:43 pm

Effes wrote:Will Mick's post, and resulting posts, be one of the most hybridised posts ever?

I like that, "The Hybridised Post"

Stop making up words dammit!

by **fivecups** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:46 pm

bigmick wrote::laugh: Post of the week mate that, absolute top quality Brilliant. There's isn't a "and I'm not being sarcy either" smiley, but if there was I'd stick it on the end. Top notch.

Ah come on Mick - that post represents my view points as much as the one I modified represents yours. I even quoted you in the last paragraph 'As Mick says the truth is probably somewhere in the middle'!

by **Sir Roger** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:09 am

bigmick wrote:There's a few quotes about luck, and we deserve ours as much as anyone. Like the fella who brought it up though, I find the "tactical genius" thing a wee bit removed from the realityof what we actually see from time to time. I do agree that at the "setting the stall out" and "nullification" Rafa is right up there, but his record in finals (and I didn't include that World Club thing) isn't indicative of someone who thrives in that scenario.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle. Rafa ain't as bad as some make out, but he certainly ain't as good either. I've actually grown to quite like him over the years and I don't think he's done too bad a job. It's only when people go totally overboard and lose all sight of common sense that I feel the need to get involved. Unfortunately on here, it happens quite a lot .

The second final against AC Milan was easier to win than the first
They had basically the same team which was two years older and some of their main players not even there.
Rafa chose to play Bolo Zenden (the dutch maradonna) and leave Peter Crouch on the bench. Even after most of the milan players had publicly said they were frightened of him and didnt know how to handle him. He then goes on to substitute mascherano who had Kaka in his pocket all through the game. What does Kaka go and do...? Score.
If there was any tactical genius there at that final he wasnt in our dug out

by **GYBS** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:19 am

Sir Roger wrote:
bigmick wrote:There's a few quotes about luck, and we deserve ours as much as anyone. Like the fella who brought it up though, I find the "tactical genius" thing a wee bit removed from the realityof what we actually see from time to time. I do agree that at the "setting the stall out" and "nullification" Rafa is right up there, but his record in finals (and I didn't include that World Club thing) isn't indicative of someone who thrives in that scenario.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle. Rafa ain't as bad as some make out, but he certainly ain't as good either. I've actually grown to quite like him over the years and I don't think he's done too bad a job. It's only when people go totally overboard and lose all sight of common sense that I feel the need to get involved. Unfortunately on here, it happens quite a lot .

The second final against AC Milan was easier to win than the first
They had basically the same team which was two years older and some of their main players not even there.
Rafa chose to play Bolo Zenden (the dutch maradonna) and leave Peter Crouch on the bench. Even after most of the milan players had publicly said they were frightened of him and didnt know how to handle him. He then goes on to substitute mascherano who had Kaka in his pocket all through the game. What does Kaka go and do...? Score.
If there was any tactical genius there at that final he wasnt in our dug out

Didnt Inzaghi score both the goals that game for milan

by **Sir Roger** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:24 am

GYBS wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:
bigmick wrote:There's a few quotes about luck, and we deserve ours as much as anyone. Like the fella who brought it up though, I find the "tactical genius" thing a wee bit removed from the realityof what we actually see from time to time. I do agree that at the "setting the stall out" and "nullification" Rafa is right up there, but his record in finals (and I didn't include that World Club thing) isn't indicative of someone who thrives in that scenario.

Like most things, the truth is in the middle. Rafa ain't as bad as some make out, but he certainly ain't as good either. I've actually grown to quite like him over the years and I don't think he's done too bad a job. It's only when people go totally overboard and lose all sight of common sense that I feel the need to get involved. Unfortunately on here, it happens quite a lot .

The second final against AC Milan was easier to win than the first
They had basically the same team which was two years older and some of their main players not even there.
Rafa chose to play Bolo Zenden (the dutch maradonna) and leave Peter Crouch on the bench. Even after most of the milan players had publicly said they were frightened of him and didnt know how to handle him. He then goes on to substitute mascherano who had Kaka in his pocket all through the game. What does Kaka go and do...? Score.
If there was any tactical genius there at that final he wasnt in our dug out

Didnt Inzaghi score both the goals that game for milan

And...?

by **GYBS** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:28 am

Well you said that masher went off who was makring kaka and he then went off and scored where as Kaka didnt score - also didnt Masher come off for the player everyone wanted on the pitch ? crouch ? to enable us to go two strikers up top and to go for the equaliser ?

by **Owzat** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:31 am

Sir Roger wrote:Rafa chose to play Bolo Zenden (the dutch maradonna) and leave Peter Crouch on the bench. Even after most of the milan players had publicly said they were frightened of him and didnt know how to handle him.

The aussies claimed they least wanted to face Harmison and what did he do in the Ashes? Picked up three tailenders in the last Test, but otherwise not a lot. Broad did more damage than Harmison, and he should have been dropped.

Point is, words are just that - words. They might have nightmares about handling Crouch, more likely they just don't like him using them as a springboard. The way to "handle him" is to make like you've been fouled and add that to the half the time he does clamber all over you and concede a foul, and you're laughing. Just stand half a yard to a yard off him, let him have the ball as he has no pace to beat you and nick it off him if opportunity presents itself. Crouch is usually only dangerous if you give him space, most players half decent in the air should be able to beat him in the area

by **Sir Roger** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:37 am

GYBS wrote:Well you said that masher went off who was makring kaka and he then went off and scored where as Kaka didnt score - also didnt Masher come off for the player everyone wanted on the pitch ? crouch ? to enable us to go two strikers up top and to go for the equaliser ?

I apologise
Had a heavy night
What I meant was that mascherano had Kaka in his pocket who was then let loose to torment us and eventually pass to Inzaghi to score.
As for Crouch coming on for him. Too little too late.
Its all opinions obviously and some will say Rafa got it right but was unlucky. I believe Rafa royally fukced up in not playing Crouch and Bellamy against the dads army of AC.

by **GYBS** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:44 am

We had our chances to win that game well before they scored their first - Gerrard and Pennant had two very good chances but just werent taken - we even had a few more start of second have and once again just werent taken - so for me the set up was ok we just didnt take our chances when they were presented to us .

by **Sir Roger** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:48 am

Owzat wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:Rafa chose to play Bolo Zenden (the dutch maradonna) and leave Peter Crouch on the bench. Even after most of the milan players had publicly said they were frightened of him and didnt know how to handle him.

The aussies claimed they least wanted to face Harmison and what did he do in the Ashes? Picked up three tailenders in the last Test, but otherwise not a lot. Broad did more damage than Harmison, and he should have been dropped.

Point is, words are just that - words. They might have nightmares about handling Crouch, more likely they just don't like him using them as a springboard. The way to "handle him" is to make like you've been fouled and add that to the half the time he does clamber all over you and concede a foul, and you're laughing. Just stand half a yard to a yard off him, let him have the ball as he has no pace to beat you and nick it off him if opportunity presents itself. Crouch is usually only dangerous if you give him space, most players half decent in the air should be able to beat him in the area

Of course words are words and Milan could have been saying those things to make Rafa chose Crouch because they thought they could handle him.
I personally doubt it
Nesta, Gattuso and especially 38 year old Maldini couldnt have handled him or Bellamy.
But we'll never know will we?
By the way wasnt Crouch third leading goalscorer in the competition with 6 at the time of the final?
How was he doing for club and country at the time?

by **GYBS** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:51 am

The one player i dont believe should of played was bellamy - he was poor throughout most of the season for us

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