Liverpool FC Forum

baldricks_cunning_plan wrote:

maguskwt wrote:so how come during Houllier's reign we were never able to sign world class internationals in the class of alonso, torres and reina?

Because during Houllier's time we had Michael Owen. The greatest centre forward on the planet during the early 2000s so we didn't need to fork out a s**t load on somebody as good as Torres. We already had the best.

Because during Houllier's time we had Steven Gerrard. The same Steven Gerrard who was quickly becoming one of the best complete players in world football, has since gone on to become the most complete player in the world. Down to Houllier as much as anybody. So again we didn't need to fork out huge amounts to find somebody as good as Alonso, although in what he did nobody was as good as Didi Hamann not even Xabi.

And simply because Reina is one of very few world class goalkeepers in the last 20 years. The only ones up there with him in that category are Schmichael, Casillas and Van Der Sar in his prime. Also Pepe didn't have an international cap until he moved to Anfield so we didn't sign a world class international when we got him did we?

Any other of your statements you'd like me to disprove?

you didn't disprove anything mate.... all you did was give excuses for Houllier... 

So we got all these best players in Michael Owen and Steven Gerrard and if we were as attractive club under Houllier as under Rafa then how come he didn't add more world class players so that we could win the league and dominate for years? Btw... Cisse 14 million, Heskey 11 million, Diouf 10 million back then WAS a load of money comparable to today's 18-20 million transfers.

bigmick wrote:

baldricks_cunning_plan wrote:

bigmick wrote:Getting top players to come is a bit like field of dreams where if you build it they will come. In football, nine times out of ten if you pay them, they will come. Man City have by and large got the players they've been going for, and I can't help but think it's not necessarily down to Mark Hughes' magnetic personality nor his impressive record. True Kaka turned them down, but he was a bit of an exception. I'm not sure he'd have come to us either to be perfectly honest.

I don't see what point you're trying to make mate. Man City have got an open cheque book so they get pretty much who they want, it's hardly a revelation that is it?

We have limited funds, if any at all, so we're going for the second, third maybe even fourth class of player. What are you trying to prove?

I'm not sure what the point is either baldy to be honest. I do know this though, it's tricky keeping up with things around here.

Here's how I understand the lie of the land to be right now.

If somebody signs for the club, regardless of the fact they're on a huge contract (Johnson for example), it's because of Rafa, which is fair enough. If on the other hand they decide not to sign for us and to sign for somebody else (like Gareth Barry for example), it's nothing to do with Rafa, it's because they are a greedy b@stard.

If a player decides to stay with us for a while (ie Reina or Agger), it's because of Rafa and the respect the player(s) have for him. If on other hand they decide to leave (Like Owen or Alonso for example), it's nothing to do with Rafa.

If a player such as Gerrard considers leaving, it's nothing to do with Rafa or presumeably the manager he was considering playing for. It's actually Parry's fault. If and when though he changes his mind and decides to stay, that's nothing to do with Parry, that's because of Rafa and the respect the player has for him.

If we go into a Champions League final and are 3-0 down at half time and being completely outplayed, it's nothing to do with the tactics we decided to employ, or Rafa. If though our captain then drags us back into it single handed and we eventually through many twists of fate win, it's because of the tactical genius, of Rafa.

If we play in a Champions League final and leave our best striker on the bench and lose, it's nothing to do with Rafa.

If we win the Champions League with a team which consists of eight or nine players who were left behind by the previous manager, it's all down to Rafa and nothing to do with that previous manager. If that same group of players wins the FA Cup the following season, ditto. If having rebuilt that squad at huge cost, we then win feck all for three seasons, it's nothing to do with Rafa. It's down to Parry, the owners, and bad luck.

If we win a big willy contest with Real Madrid but then suffer at the start of the season as our replacement for our playmaker which we sold (which wasn't anything to do with Rafa) is injured until October, it's not down to Rafa. Similarly, if the pre-season run outs against Cricklewood Wanderers, Heimdalls Harriers and Merthyr Tydfill don't have us sharp enough for the start of the season, it's nothing to do with Rafa.

If we sign a striker for 20 million quid and he scores goals for fun, it's down to Rafa which is absolutely fair enough. Not only is it down to rafa for spotting him, but the only reason the player came is because of Rafa (obviously). If two seasons later we sign another striker for 20 million quid and he can't hit a cows erse with a banjo, it's nothing to do with Rafa. It's down to Parry, because Rafa didn't want him in the first place. The fact we paid 20 million quid for him which was too much was down to Parry (nothing to do with Rafa), but then when we managed to lose only 1 million pounds sterling on the deal when we sold him for 12 million quid, it's down to Rafa (with a bit of help from Jesus presumeably).   

I think that's all things covered, but forgive me if I get a bit confused with it all from time to time Baldy   .

now now mick it's not nice to generalize... 

ConnO'var wrote:

GYBS wrote:ah yes mick at his wonderful sarcastic best , trying to belittle anyone with an opinion that seems to back the manager thru thick and thin . Heartbeat of the forum our mick is . Keep up the good work encouraging people to post knowing their opinion will not be ridiculed .

Don't get yer knickers in a twist GYBS..... it was obviously a joke and a damn funny one at that.... lighten up FFS. 

Lando_Griffin wrote:

heimdall wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:

aCe' wrote:

GYBS wrote:Whoa guess only selected few are allowed humour posts - apologies that smiley wasnt added to show it was just a bit of mickey taking

P.s. shall we just make one Rafa slagging off thread as most threads seem to be turning into a good old grumble about our manager .

dont be an idiot Gybs, wheres the slagging ?

You have you, and Lando moaning about posters and other peoples opinions rather than getting involved in the discussion...grow the fck up .. thats what ruins the threads... not figures that might or might not prove that Rafa isnt that miracle working genius who used a very limited budget to bring in "world class" talent all over the pitch....


And penguin, havent seen any site or source or whatever that says that Benitez only bought 31 players or only spent 227mill or whatever... id say you figures are about 30 players and 40mill short but whatever...

I didn't think you lot would leave me out of this "debate" for long... 

Listen, cretin - which is the better team - LFC 2003-04 or LFC 2008-09?

Precisely - now shut up, you silly sod.

Sticks and stones, didn't I read somewhere about name calling be frowned upon..........

What the chuff are you on about? Are we in the playground?

"Cretin" - An obtuse or challenging person.

Surely this is universally accepted as a stunningly accurate description of ace?

"Silly sod" - if that's a cardable offence then I really do despair. Surely this board is about the expression of opinions? Well they are the milder ends of my opinion spectrum.

Be grateful for that. It could so easily have been the other end.

devaney wrote:

GYBS wrote:

devaney wrote:

GYBS wrote:He is just making a joke about my point - i mentioned parry about gerrards contract and it gets dragged down to the normal levels of parry signing players and everything being blamed on parry etc etc blah blah

If you don't think that Benitez was partly responsible for Gerrardgate number two then I feel sorry for you. Parry and Benitez probably didn't persuade Gerrard to stay - his family more than likely did! Rafa's man management skills were there for all to witness after we won the CL. He made Gerrard feel unwanted - Gerrard's words not mine! As for Gerrardgate number one Rafa was there but he was more intent on selling Owen for fk all to Real Madrid! Or was that Parry as well!

there is no facts whatsoever to back up any of that . Read his book where rafa persuaded gerrard to stay first time by telling him that he was the key to rafas plans along with owen and carra but owen decided not to give him a chance , he flew out to meet the guys during the euros , yeah thats poor man management . The second time rafa wanted the club to give him a new contract but the club delayed in giving it to him and thought the club wanted to sell him to raise funds not rafa wanting to sell him and rafa was furious that the club messed him around so once again nothing to do with rafa supposed poor man management . Its obvious your against rafa but lets not blame him for everything to fit your agenda .

Shall we just blame Parry and Moores to fit your agenda instead! If Gerrard had been managed properly on both occasions he wouldn't even have had talks with Chelsea and Rafa wouldn't have had to persuade him to stay! Rafa cannot be absolved of any blame. He is the closest person that Gerrard works with on a daily basis and it is up to him to ensure that key players are kept highly motivated.If you still don't agree just talk me through the Alonso saga and convince me that was also nothing to do with Rafa and a serious lack of man management skills.

You are right that my support for Rafa is waning. Is that really a surprise given what he has achieved in the last three years? I am not just going to blame the owners for everything. Rafa also needs to up his game!

bigmick wrote:I'm not sure what the point is either baldy to be honest.

Well that's a good start, not knowing the point to your own posts. Gotta be proud of yourself there Biggy.

I do know this though, it's tricky keeping up with things around here.

It sure is lad, constant references to gazelles always has been looking for Bill Oddie. You're certainly the "oddie" so alls we need now is a Bill.

Here's how I understand the lie of the land to be right now.

So now you've come to terms with things? That's what a call a quick change of thinking.

If somebody signs for the club, regardless of the fact they're on a huge contract (Johnson for example), it's because of Rafa, which is fair enough. If on the other hand they decide not to sign for us and to sign for somebody else (like Gareth Barry for example), it's nothing to do with Rafa, it's because they are a greedy b@stard.

Barry is a greedy b*****d, that is so obvious even somebody with your intelligence could see that. He wanted Champions League football, so he joined a team not in Europe at all. As for Johnson he admitted he joined because of what Rafa had to say to him. Now maybe a contract that is as big as reported as Johnson's has helped but City and Chelsea wanted him as well. They could have offered more money than we did.

So to be honest Biggy, Barry and Johnson are two very p**s poor examples. But good try. (at least both were spelt right.  )

If a player decides to stay with us for a while (ie Reina or Agger), it's because of Rafa and the respect the player(s) have for him. If on other hand they decide to leave (Like Owen or Alonso for example), it's nothing to do with Rafa.

Owen was very impressed with Rafa when he met him during the Euro 2004 campaign with England. Carra says as much in his book. Owen took a look at the squad and realised it wasn't going to win things (two trophies in five years is testament to that, although two in the first two without Owen may also disprove it) and he wanted out. I can't blame him for that, the squad was dire back then. So actually it wasn't anything to do with Rafa, it was the state the squad was in.

As for Alonso, when Real Madrid come calling it's difficult for a Spaniard to turn them down. Plus his best mate at Liverpool (Arbeloa) had just left for Madrid. I'm sure that had as much baring on him as much as the whole Barry saga of the summer of 2008. So while Rafa trying to sell Xabi in 08 as well as trying to sign Barry, won't have helped. Other things would have contributed just as much. So Rafa isn't blameless, but he isn't solely to blame either.

And Agger/Reina, for example, would have to sit down with the manager and Rafa would have convinced them that there was something big happening at Anfield. So them staying will have had a lot to do with what Rafa said, obviously he couldn't convince Owen and Alonso as well as he could with Pepe and Dagger.

If a player such as Gerrard considers leaving, it's nothing to do with Rafa or presumeably the manager he was considering playing for. It's actually Parry's fault. If and when though he changes his mind and decides to stay, that's nothing to do with Parry, that's because of Rafa and the respect the player has for him.

Stevie's decision to stay at Anfield was down to the fans. His decision to, almost, leave was like Owen's. He thought the squad wasn't good enough to match his ambitions while Chelsea's was. After thinking about it, and seeing how the fans reacted, he realised that love for the club and it's fans were more important than his ambition.

His decision to leave and stay was down to himself and the fans nobody else. Which if I can understand your drivel, that's the point you're trying to get at.

If we go into a Champions League final and are 3-0 down at half time and being completely outplayed, it's nothing to do with the tactics we decided to employ, or Rafa. If though our captain then drags us back into it single handed and we eventually through many twists of fate win, it's because of the tactical genius, of Rafa.

Stevie didn't drag us back into single handedly. If you remember rightly it was a cross from Riise, so he had some say. If you remember rightly Xabi played it to Didi, Didi squared it to Vlad and Vlad smashed it home. Carra played it up to Milan, Milan put in the path of Stevie so they had something to do with it. As did Xabi's pen. As did Didi, Djib and Vlad's pens and Jerzy's saves. So it wasn't all down to Stevie now was it?

And it was a fantastic tactical move by Rafa at half time. Yes Steve Finnan was injured, but he had Josemi on the bench instead he brought on Didi to nullify Kaka. And Rafa's three subs all scored pens in the shoot-out.

If we play in a Champions League final and leave our best striker on the bench and lose, it's nothing to do with Rafa.

A deflected free kick off Inzaghi and a goal when he had to go for broke is why we lost in Athens, not because Crouch (who I imagine you're referring to) was on the bench. Unless you're talking about Bellamy in which case, you need your head testing.

If we win the Champions League with a team which consists of eight or nine players who were left behind by the previous manager, it's all down to Rafa and nothing to do with that previous manager. If that same group of players wins the FA Cup the following season, ditto. If having rebuilt that squad at huge cost, we then win feck all for three seasons, it's nothing to do with Rafa. It's down to Parry, the owners, and bad luck.

It is down to Rafa in the way he got the players to gel, something Houllier couldn't do at that time. Which is a shame because Houllier was a great manager, just never returned the same after his heart problem. So the cup success' were down to Rafa for the way he got the players together.

As for the three years afterwards, it's we just haven't been good enough. The problems the owners have caused haven't helped nor has Parry's tendency to f**k up our transfers, but we still haven't been good enough. Players and manager have to take the blame for that.

If we win a big willy contest with Real Madrid but then suffer at the start of the season as our replacement for our playmaker which we sold (which wasn't anything to do with Rafa) is injured until October, it's not down to Rafa. Similarly, if the pre-season run outs against Cricklewood Wanderers, Heimdalls Harriers and Merthyr Tydfill don't have us sharp enough for the start of the season, it's nothing to do with Rafa.

Xabi's transfer wasn't Rafa's fault solely. And as Rafa himself has said Aquilani has been signed for 5 years not 5 games, so lets not be too hasty eh Biggy?

As for pre-season, the club decides who we play. Not Rafa. Pre-season is as much commercial as anything which is why we always fly half away round the world, to spread the name of Liverpool Football Club. That can't be blamed on Rafa, not even by you. So take it back or I might just cry. 

If we sign a striker for 20 million quid and he scores goals for fun, it's down to Rafa which is absolutely fair enough. Not only is it down to rafa for spotting him, but the only reason the player came is because of Rafa (obviously). If two seasons later we sign another striker for 20 million quid and he can't hit a cows erse with a banjo, it's nothing to do with Rafa. It's down to Parry, because Rafa didn't want him in the first place. The fact we paid 20 million quid for him which was too much was down to Parry (nothing to do with Rafa), but then when we managed to lose only 1 million pounds sterling on the deal when we sold him for 12 million quid, it's down to Rafa (with a bit of help from Jesus presumeably).   

The Keane transfer was Rafa's transfer, both buying and selling. So while it was Rafa's fault we bought him, it was to Rafa's credit we sold him as early as we did.

I think that's all things covered, but forgive me if I get a bit confused with it all from time to time Baldy   .

I will forgive you if you get confused by all that Biggy but that has sod all to do with the post I was confused about. I was confused as to what Man City signing their targets had to do with anything, and still have no explanation from yourself.

The post generally though was a good laugh. Since you seem to know how to make people laugh why don't you take up comedy rather than trying to talk football which you simply have no clue about. 

maguskwt wrote:   seems like Mick has found his match... countering point by point to a long sarcastic post with an even longer sarcastic post is not a mean feat.... but it was also a complete waste of time though... maybe both of you have lots of time to kill at old age eh?

Oh aye I can just see it now, me and Biggy as Harry Enfield's "Old Gits"