Liverpool FC Forum

by **Zidane** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:56 am

I think he will come good and will never, ever be world class or anything near it but a quality squad player when it's all said and done, even for a team like LFC. He can't control a game that well, he can't particularly make something out of nothing but he seems to do a lot of dirty work pretty efficiently when he's on his game and occassionally throws in a good 1-2 or creates some kind of attack amidst all his very boring basic passes. He reminds me so much of Kuyt in that aspect. I'd rather have another Kuyt in the squad than someone like *cough* Babel *cough*.

Also like I've said over and over Masch is really improving in attack, am I the only one that sees this? He controlled the middle against Stoke like a champ, looked really really good. It wasn't as consistent throughout as Alonso and he still had his bad passes here and there that showed his limitations but he looked great. He has far better mobility than Xabi ever had and is much better in defense so it balances out I suppose.

by **bigmick** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:05 am

Lucas was just about as good as I've seen him against Stoke. Many posters whose opinion I respect said he wasn't that bad against Tottenham as well, but as I only saw the highlights I couldn't really judge.

Against Stoke though he was tenacious in his tracking back, as always he pinged it aound and kept it moving, and once or twice got forward. When the ball broke to him and he had a shot, I don't agree with the posters who said it was a poor effort as it went stright at the keeper. My take was that the shot was hit down the only available tunnel, Stoke pressed the ball really well on that opportunity to be fair. He continues to be oddly impressive in the air, and on the odd occasion he gave a silly foul away I thought he was very unlucky. There was one where he actually pulled out of the challenge but their bloke went to ground and got the nod, poor refereeing that.

The worry continues to be whether or not it's actually enough. I would count it as a Darren Fletcherish performance, the kind of display which makes you a bit of a pain in the erse for the opposition, but they aren't going to lose any sleep over you. That said, man Utd by all accounts would have beaten Barcelona if Fletcher had been available and without any alteration to their game plan

so such players shouldn't be underestimated I suppose.

My feeling has always been though with regard central midfielders at top clubs that you've got to really be a bit of a specialist. Are you a destructive holder like a Mash, a pace dictator and a passer like Alonso, a game breaking superster like a Gerrard, a goalscoring "arriver" like a Lampard or a young Scholes or a Fabregas, or maybe even a hole filler like a Makeleli, or a behind enemy lines ball hunter like a Sissoko. There has to something which you are a specialist at is broadly what I'm saying, you have to be better than ordinary. You'll get away with just doing your job and being tidy at full back, but at the top level central midfielders have to either score goals or cause goals to be scored, or stop them from being scored. Failing both of those, they have to influence the match, grab it and steer it in the direction of their team.

Lucas still doesn't do that enough for me, but he is improving based on the Stoke game.

by **TheLad** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:18 am

I didn't rate Lucas, but I have to admit that he has been improving lately. I really hope he can make this year a successful one for him and for us. He's young, has talent so there is hope. The same doesn't goes for Babel though, not much hope there.

by **HacksawJimDuggin** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:40 am

TheLad wrote:I didn't rate Lucas, but I have to admit that he has been improving lately. I really hope he can make this year a successful one for him and for us. He's young, has talent so there is hope. The same doesn't goes for Babel though, not much hope there.

He had better keep improving as he is almost certain to play every game as we have little cover in CM with Aquilani out until October. I think he has built himself up physically over the summer and looks more equipped for the EPL as a result.

by **stmichael** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:52 am

bigmick wrote:Lucas was just about as good as I've seen him against Stoke. Many posters whose opinion I respect said he wasn't that bad against Tottenham as well, but as I only saw the highlights I couldn't really judge.

Against Stoke though he was tenacious in his tracking back, as always he pinged it aound and kept it moving, and once or twice got forward. When the ball broke to him and he had a shot, I don't agree with the posters who said it was a poor effort as it went stright at the keeper. My take was that the shot was hit down the only available tunnel, Stoke pressed the ball really well on that opportunity to be fair. He continues to be oddly impressive in the air, and on the odd occasion he gave a silly foul away I thought he was very unlucky. There was one where he actually pulled out of the challenge but their bloke went to ground and got the nod, poor refereeing that.

The worry continues to be whether or not it's actually enough. I would count it as a Darren Fletcherish performance, the kind of display which makes you a bit of a pain in the erse for the opposition, but they aren't going to lose any sleep over you. That said, man Utd by all accounts would have beaten Barcelona if Fletcher had been available and without any alteration to their game plan so such players shouldn't be underestimated I suppose.

My feeling has always been though with regard central midfielders at top clubs that you've got to really be a bit of a specialist. Are you a destructive holder like a Mash, a pace dictator and a passer like Alonso, a game breaking superster like a Gerrard, a goalscoring "arriver" like a Lampard or a young Scholes or a Fabregas, or maybe even a hole filler like a Makeleli, or a behind enemy lines ball hunter like a Sissoko. There has to something which you are a specialist at is broadly what I'm saying, you have to be better than ordinary. You'll get away with just doing your job and being tidy at full back, but at the top level central midfielders have to either score goals or cause goals to be scored, or stop them from being scored. Failing both of those, they have to influence the match, grab it and steer it in the direction of their team.

Lucas still doesn't do that enough for me, but he is improving based on the Stoke game.

Good post.

One thing I dis notice about him is he's only a box to box midfielder when we don't have possession. As soon as our defenders get hold of the ball, he's no longer in our own half. In fact his natural position seems to be somewhere between the 18 yard line and the centre circle, and he doesnt like playing it back to the defenders either, always looking for the incisive pass - good for our final 3rd play, not so good for our build up play.

Just hope he can keep it up.

by **Owzat** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:11 pm

bigmick wrote:Lucas was just about as good as I've seen him against Stoke. Many posters whose opinion I respect said he wasn't that bad against Tottenham as well, but as I only saw the highlights I couldn't really judge.

Against Stoke though he was tenacious in his tracking back, as always he pinged it aound and kept it moving, and once or twice got forward. When the ball broke to him and he had a shot, I don't agree with the posters who said it was a poor effort as it went stright at the keeper. My take was that the shot was hit down the only available tunnel, Stoke pressed the ball really well on that opportunity to be fair. He continues to be oddly impressive in the air, and on the odd occasion he gave a silly foul away I thought he was very unlucky. There was one where he actually pulled out of the challenge but their bloke went to ground and got the nod, poor refereeing that.

The worry continues to be whether or not it's actually enough. I would count it as a Darren Fletcherish performance, the kind of display which makes you a bit of a pain in the erse for the opposition, but they aren't going to lose any sleep over you. That said, man Utd by all accounts would have beaten Barcelona if Fletcher had been available and without any alteration to their game plan so such players shouldn't be underestimated I suppose.

My feeling has always been though with regard central midfielders at top clubs that you've got to really be a bit of a specialist. Are you a destructive holder like a Mash, a pace dictator and a passer like Alonso, a game breaking superster like a Gerrard, a goalscoring "arriver" like a Lampard or a young Scholes or a Fabregas, or maybe even a hole filler like a Makeleli, or a behind enemy lines ball hunter like a Sissoko. There has to something which you are a specialist at is broadly what I'm saying, you have to be better than ordinary. You'll get away with just doing your job and being tidy at full back, but at the top level central midfielders have to either score goals or cause goals to be scored, or stop them from being scored. Failing both of those, they have to influence the match, grab it and steer it in the direction of their team.

Lucas still doesn't do that enough for me, but he is improving based on the Stoke game.

I would say of his game that he seems to lack killer passes, hollywood passes, a rasping shot and isn't much of a dribbler so there isn't much that fans often like to rate. His free-kicks look useful. He's more a tidy little player who doesn't do anything with a "wow" factor, but a sort of hustle and bustle player.

Some just like to have players to knock, Babel and Lucas are easy enough targets as they are not good enough to be regulars so any below par performances are jumped on.

by **kazza** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:18 pm

Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez has condemned Lucas Leiva's critics after the midfielder earned a call-up to the Brazil squad.

Lucas showed promising form amid the Reds' poor pre-season campaign and continued his form into Liverpool's 4-0 drubbing of Stoke City in midweek.

Brazil manager Dunga has now called up the midfielder for their forthcoming World Cup qualifiers against Argentina and Chile in a clear sign of Lucas' progress under Benitez.

Despite the progress, the 22-year-old was still made a scapegoat as Liverpool fell to Tottenham on the opening day of the season, criticism which Benitez is adamant was unfair.

"Lucas has a very good mentality. But for someone of his age to suffer such criticism from the experts on TV is wrong," Benitez claimed.

"He is so good but still he was criticised. I do not understand why they do not criticise other players, more senior players, when they do not play well.

"He is an easy target and maybe they are not brave enough to criticise the bigger players here."

"But he will have a big season. He was the best player in pre-season and at Spurs, when we did not play well, he was still one of the best alongside Glen Johnson and Pepe Reina.

Stoke
"Against Stoke he again showed his quality. He has a very good mentality. He can tackle, win headers and pass the ball. He will make mistakes like anyone, but he is and will be a very good player.

"I was really pleased for Lucas, in particular, after the win against Stoke and his performance. I have been really surprised at the amount of criticism he has had to cope with from the pundits, the so-called experts.

"Lucas is still a young player but he has experience. And after the display against Stoke everyone can see, even the so-called experts on TV pundit panels, can see he is a very good player.

"Hopefully they will now stop using him as a target. He is a very good lad, an excellent professional. I find it hard to understand that if you are an expert on TV, you cannot see these things."

by **TheLad** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:27 pm

kazza wrote:Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez has condemned Lucas Leiva's critics after the midfielder earned a call-up to the Brazil squad.

Lucas showed promising form amid the Reds' poor pre-season campaign and continued his form into Liverpool's 4-0 drubbing of Stoke City in midweek.

Brazil manager Dunga has now called up the midfielder for their forthcoming World Cup qualifiers against Argentina and Chile in a clear sign of Lucas' progress under Benitez.

Despite the progress, the 22-year-old was still made a scapegoat as Liverpool fell to Tottenham on the opening day of the season, criticism which Benitez is adamant was unfair.

"Lucas has a very good mentality. But for someone of his age to suffer such criticism from the experts on TV is wrong," Benitez claimed.

"He is so good but still he was criticised. I do not understand why they do not criticise other players, more senior players, when they do not play well.

"He is an easy target and maybe they are not brave enough to criticise the bigger players here."

"But he will have a big season. He was the best player in pre-season and at Spurs, when we did not play well, he was still one of the best alongside Glen Johnson and Pepe Reina.

Stoke
"Against Stoke he again showed his quality. He has a very good mentality. He can tackle, win headers and pass the ball. He will make mistakes like anyone, but he is and will be a very good player.

"I was really pleased for Lucas, in particular, after the win against Stoke and his performance. I have been really surprised at the amount of criticism he has had to cope with from the pundits, the so-called experts.

"Lucas is still a young player but he has experience. And after the display against Stoke everyone can see, even the so-called experts on TV pundit panels, can see he is a very good player.

"Hopefully they will now stop using him as a target. He is a very good lad, an excellent professional. I find it hard to understand that if you are an expert on TV, you cannot see these things."

Wow, that's called standing up for your players, and giving them some confidence. Well done Rafa.

by **burjennio** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:55 pm

kazza wrote:Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez has condemned Lucas Leiva's critics after the midfielder earned a call-up to the Brazil squad.

Lucas showed promising form amid the Reds' poor pre-season campaign and continued his form into Liverpool's 4-0 drubbing of Stoke City in midweek.

Brazil manager Dunga has now called up the midfielder for their forthcoming World Cup qualifiers against Argentina and Chile in a clear sign of Lucas' progress under Benitez.

Despite the progress, the 22-year-old was still made a scapegoat as Liverpool fell to Tottenham on the opening day of the season, criticism which Benitez is adamant was unfair.

"Lucas has a very good mentality. But for someone of his age to suffer such criticism from the experts on TV is wrong," Benitez claimed.

"He is so good but still he was criticised. I do not understand why they do not criticise other players, more senior players, when they do not play well.

"He is an easy target and maybe they are not brave enough to criticise the bigger players here."

"But he will have a big season. He was the best player in pre-season and at Spurs, when we did not play well, he was still one of the best alongside Glen Johnson and Pepe Reina.

Stoke
"Against Stoke he again showed his quality. He has a very good mentality. He can tackle, win headers and pass the ball. He will make mistakes like anyone, but he is and will be a very good player.

"I was really pleased for Lucas, in particular, after the win against Stoke and his performance. I have been really surprised at the amount of criticism he has had to cope with from the pundits, the so-called experts.

"Lucas is still a young player but he has experience. And after the display against Stoke everyone can see, even the so-called experts on TV pundit panels, can see he is a very good player.

"Hopefully they will now stop using him as a target. He is a very good lad, an excellent professional. I find it hard to understand that if you are an expert on TV, you cannot see these things."

geezus, do you think Rafa is a member of this forum? There seems to have been a lot of that exact same argument on here since Sunday

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:16 pm

too bad Rafa is so poor at man management that he doesn't even stick up for his players

by **Sabre** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:25 pm

"Lucas has a very good mentality. But for someone of his age to suffer such criticism from the experts on TV is wrong," Benitez claimed.

"He is so good but still he was criticised. I do not understand why they do not criticise other players, more senior players, when they do not play well.

"He is an easy target and maybe they are not brave enough to criticise the bigger players here."

Rafa telling the tv pundits they know fúck all about football

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:53 pm

Sabre wrote:
"Lucas has a very good mentality. But for someone of his age to suffer such criticism from the experts on TV is wrong," Benitez claimed.

"He is so good but still he was criticised. I do not understand why they do not criticise other players, more senior players, when they do not play well.

"He is an easy target and maybe they are not brave enough to criticise the bigger players here."

Rafa telling the tv pundits they know fúck all about football

dropping some truth bombs on their as.ses

by **bigmick** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:36 pm

In fairness Rafa is spot on about some of the pundits on TV. Some of them are absolutely clueless. When you speak to professional footballers though it's hardly surprising, many of them are. You do get the studious ones who are well into it, but there are others to whom the game is simply a job. They very rarely wtch football, take little or no interest in the finer points of it and are happy to just do what they do, get paid and feck off into the sunset.

It's been a frequent put down bandied about on here that "what do you know, you're a plumber/plasterer/painter/cocktail barman/Dildo salesman" etc etc, but when you see buffoons such as Paul Merson actually given the responsibility of managing a football club it makes you laugh really. You wouldn't put clowns such as him in charge of a shift down your local Macdonalds, never mind put him in control of business which turns over multi millions of pounds per annum. Unfortunately chairman are usually working class boys made good, and they convince themselves that fools such as Merson have more chance of succeeding rather than a journeyman pro who has done the hard yards and was studying the game while Merson was in a nightclub somewhere. Even one of your aforementioned people from outside the game who has nouse, knowledge and b0ll0cks could do a better job that such idiots, but of course they are never given the opportunity.

Then to compund it, once they have failed miserably as managers someone puts them on a couch and sticks a microphone infront of their mouths. It staggers me it really does. When he played, Merson a lout and a clueless c..., now he's retired he's just a lout and a clueless c... with a bigger belly. Why does anybody at a TV firm think he would have changed? Meanwhile, you get decent match analysers like Tony Gale who is never seen in the studio, presumeably because people don't know him so much. Robbie Earle is a good pundit and a top fella too, couldn't he offer more than some of these d!ckheads? He's another one who's been around a bit and has studied the game.

Rafa is right. He should go on the offensive, throw out a question to such and such a pundit. "I notice the ex Arsenal player who was omn the panel said that zonal defending doesn't work. He should put his breakdown of the principles of it in his newspaper colomn, I'd love to have a read of it

".

He's also right about Lucas certainly against Stoke anyway. The lad had a decent game and denying it is just daft.

by **tubby** » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:44 pm

Lucas has been on the up since the 2nd half of last season. The fact that even the Liverpool fans booed him probably means he will leave when his contract is up but hey hopefully that doesn't happen.

by **aCe'** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:23 am

yea... hopefully it happens much sooner than that... dont give a rats as$ if Rafa defended hiim or not....in our current system with his current position, the guy is nowhere near good enough... until Aquilani is back, him being in the side WILL cost us points unless we decide to change our formation or setup a little...

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