Liverpool FC Forum

by **aCe'** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:39 pm

I like Pacheco... dont think either of them is ready to make any sort of impact so i wouldnt want Benitez relying on either of them as backup for Torres or Gerrard as things stand to be honest... maybe Pacheco as 3 choice behind Benayoun for the Gerrard role and Nemeth as 4th (5th?) choice behind Voronin and Ngog (Babel?) to cover for Torres... think we should probably be sending Nemeth out on loan because he seems the closer to being ready for first team football atm... The thing i like about Pacheco is that he has all the skills to become a game changer/decider against the smaller sides.. physically, he still isnt quite there and it terms of concentration and decisions hes lacking a little too.. but picture this, against stoke at 80mins with 1 substitution to go... you have Cavalieri,Dossena,Lucas, Pacheco, Nemeth/voronin on the bench.. because Ngog is injured and Babel and Benny already came on... you have to pick between nemeth/voronin and Pacheco.. to me id rather put Pacheco on.. he has more creativity, flair, can put a through ball better than the other two, and is quite honestly more likely to make a difference if he gets on the ball enough times...

At this point, given their age, lack of experience, physique ..etc you wouldnt seriously expect either of the 2 to be more than an impact sub every now and then... dont think we'll get anywhere if we start playing Nemeth and Pacheco in the starting lineup against any premierleague opposition... as is, i think Pacheco could prove the more useful of the 2 in the games in which we struggle...

Having said all that, this all quite honestly underlines how badly we need cover for our forward position... as unready as the 2 youngsters are, Voronin still isnt all that much better... N'gog has potential but i wouldnt put money on him fulfilling it any time soon...

bottom line..
- dont think either of them will make the step up this season
- hope Nemeth is send out on loan to a decent side (probably best if we send him to a club outside the country playing in a top division because i cant see him getting games at any premierleague club)
- hope Pacheco stays with the reserves and is called upon by Rafa every now and then especially in the games against the smaller sides and in domestic cup competitions... if we're winning comfortably give him a run in.. if we're struggling to break down opposition then he just might be useful if some of the other big names are missing... i'd rather see him come off the bench than Dossena when its 0-0 at the Britania with 15mins to go...

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:43 pm

I think Nemeth could probably use at least 6 months out on loan. Not sure how much a loan spell is going to help Pacheco. His game is at its most effective when he is playing around other really good players, and he would likely just get beat up in the lower leagues at this age.

Just to clear up what kind if a player Nemeth is. He is not a "on the shoulder of the last defender" type of striker. He sort of got this fox in the box repuation in the ressies a couple of years ago, but that was because he has a knack for knowing where to be on set peices. He is also at his best playing the big-little game with a target man. He can drop back to receive the ball, turn, pass it into the big fella while continuing his run, control the return pass then dink it past the keeper before he can make his challenge for the ball, that is kind of his game. he is fairly decent at playing those similar kind of balls in for others, too.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:50 pm

Pacheco is also normally a much better decision maker in the reserves and I think the nervousness/pressure of wanting to impress affected his play in pre-season. One thing that frustrates me is his consitency in finishing. At Barca that was his big reputation, a cold blooded killer in the finishing department. That part of his game did not make it through customs. but he has had some really nice and cool and difficult finishes in the reserves and some free kick goals too. Its interesting that they keep dropping him back. He played in CM a few times for the ressies as well as wide right. I wonder if they see him as more of a Fabregas type in the future? He has also gotten noticeably stronger, stockier, and faster since he first came over. still only 18.5 years old!

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:55 pm

aCe' wrote:- hope Nemeth is send out on loan to a decent side (probably best if we send him to a club outside the country playing in a top division because i cant see him getting games at any premierleague club)

Nemeth's loan would have to be in England for him to count as an "English" player in European competitions.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:10 pm

Pacheco for me looks like the one most likely to make it, he needs to develop his physique though as I can see him getting brushed off the ball too easily otherwise. He reminds me a bit of Garcia in his style of play, maybe not regards finishing but the subtelty and trickery.
At the very least I think we should be looking to give him and a couple of others the odd opportunity here or there, not as a starter but in the cups and 2-0 up at home scenarios.

Nemeth is 20 which isn't old, but it's not that young either when you look at the top young talent who come through and make it on the big stage; Owen, Rooney among others. Some do take time though as is well documented. Maybe a loan to one of the promoted sides would do him good.

by **aCe'** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:15 pm

JoeTerp wrote:
aCe' wrote:- hope Nemeth is send out on loan to a decent side (probably best if we send him to a club outside the country playing in a top division because i cant see him getting games at any premierleague club)

Nemeth's loan would have to be in England for him to count as an "English" player in European competitions.

i dont care about that mate... if he goes to the lower league then thats the end of him i think... send him to the Greek league or Turkish league or something where he can get games with decent sides against decent sides without getting injured or losing his style of play...

by **aCe'** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:20 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Pacheco for me looks like the one most likely to make it, he needs to develop his physique though as I can see him getting brushed off the ball too easily otherwise. He reminds me a bit of Garcia in his style of play, maybe not regards finishing but the subtelty and trickery.
At the very least I think we should be looking to give him and a couple of others the odd opportunity here or there, not as a starter but in the cups and 2-0 up at home scenarios.

Nemeth is 20 which isn't old, but it's not that young either when you look at the top young talent who come through and make it on the big stage; Owen, Rooney among others. Some do take time though as is well documented. Maybe a loan to one of the promoted sides would do him good.

can you see any of the promoted sides playing him regularly in their starting 11 ? i dont...
think he needs a season of starting week in week out under his belt before hes ready because i think he isnt that sort of standout talent that forces you to consider him despite his age (as you said he isnt thaaaaaat young anymore) or inexperience... he needs a little more confidence and a little more experience and then maybe he'll have what it takes to make it at Liverpool.. thing with most of those youngsters is that you wouldnt know if theyd turn out a success or not until they're tried in first team action regularly... look at Insua, Macheda, Mancienne..etc etc....

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:19 pm

Those players haven't 'turned out as a success' yet, they've shown promise is all. With a lot of youngsters you can get a very good idea of their potential without giving them regular first team minutes, with others it isn't as clear-cut. You don't need to see much of Ngog to realise he isn't up to it at the top level, IMO. Same with Spearing, Plessis, Threllfall and others.

As regards Nemeth I couldn't make an honest assessment of his suitability for first-team premiership action as I haven't seen enough of him in sustained periods to make a confident judgment. I would only go as far to say he does appear to have a degree of potential worth keeping an eye on. A risk-free test of his ability would be to send him on loan to another Prem club, if poss.

by **JoeTerp** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:27 pm

loans seem to be a delicate balancing act. You want to make sure they play a lot, but you also want them to try and play against the toughest opposition possible so you can actually take a worthwhile assesment from their play. I would also imagine that the further you go down the leagues the farther and farther you are going to get from the style that we play.

by **Igor Zidane** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:31 pm

Well rafa's done it with Insua.I think it's fair to say that he is firmly in the squad now if not definate to start at left back . He will imo play the majority of games at left back this season .

So onto Pancake and Nemeth . I would definately have both of them along with Hamill on the bench this season and give them as many 20 min cameo's as possible . Make them definate starters for cup games because they will only grow by playing with better players .

Rafa must give them as much game time as possible in pre-season to let there confedence grow and let them know that they will get game time during the season . Theses three players along with Martin Kelly are our best prospects to make the beakthrough a the moment and Rafa needs to give them every chance to do so . If they come through which i think they will , we would have saved ourselves a hell of a lot of money.

by **JC_81** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:38 pm

I think both are good prospects, but as others have pointed out, until they're thrown in at the deep end in competitive action we don't really know how good they are.

I wasn't happy with the Ngog signing and am still not happy about his presence in the squad. I don't think he's good enough and I think I've seen enough of him to be reasonably confident about that. As it turns out Nemeth was injured a lot of last season and Pacheco was only 17 last season and not ready, so Ngog's presence probably didn't hinder them. It might do this season though.

by **simolonge** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:22 am

Nemeth could well make a few banches and get a few games.

Pacheo is not ready until at the earliest next season.

by **woof woof !** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:46 am

simolonge wrote:Nemeth could well make a few benches and get a few games.

What are you saying ? we loan him out to Ikea ?

by **aCe'** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:00 am

LFC2007 wrote:Those players haven't 'turned out as a success' yet, they've shown promise is all. With a lot of youngsters you can get a very good idea of their potential without giving them regular first team minutes, with others it isn't as clear-cut. You don't need to see much of Ngog to realise he isn't up to it at the top level, IMO. Same with Spearing, Plessis, Threllfall and others.

As regards Nemeth I couldn't make an honest assessment of his suitability for first-team premiership action as I haven't seen enough of him in sustained periods to make a confident judgment. I would only go as far to say he does appear to have a degree of potential worth keeping an eye on. A risk-free test of his ability would be to send him on loan to another Prem club, if poss.

i didnt mean it that way.. i mant good enough to come in and do a job when needed, for now...

many think the likes of Kelly and Nemeth are players with good potential but do you honestly think that if Torres/Carra get injured, Rafa would just give hand them starting11 spots ? not imo... not the same with Insua, Macheda, Mancienne..etc

agree with the other stuff but dont think Nemeth would get games with any other prem league side... Jay Simpson who had more experience and was highly rated couldnt even get regular starts at a struggling WestBrom side so dont think Nemeth has a chance of making the starting 11 or getting regular games at any other prem league side...

by **GYBS** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:43 am

Why isnt it the same with Kelly nemeth as it is with mancienne and macehda ?

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Nemeth and pacheco - Are either ready to step up?

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