League gone... - Where do we go from here ?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

League gone... - Where do we go from here ?

Focus on the champions league, even if it means finishing 4th!
28
43%
Try to get 2nd place back and not worry about champs league
4
6%
This season is over as far as im concerned !
5
8%
Try to get Rafas contract sorted and next season we'll win all!
4
6%
Rafa out now, new manager in asap !
5
8%
Rafa out at the end of the season no matter how well we do in Europe or even if we end up 2nd in the league ?!
19
29%
 
Total votes : 65

Postby Owzat » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:48 am

peewee wrote:
TheLad wrote:
peewee wrote:wow so nearly 42% want rafa out either now or at the end of the season, 11.63% want him gone now and 30.23% want him gone at the end of the season and i don't know how many of the 17 people who voted to focus on the CL want him gone also.

Well, that 42% is about 18 fans, let at least a few hundred members vote before we jump into conclusions (strictly from a statistical point of view).

haha do you think I am taking it as a cross section of ALL liverpool fans, no mate just pointing out the voting on this site based on how its been in the past, its over 45% now

I'd be interested when these hundreds of fans are going to vote since they haven't already, or more relevantly where they are going to come from.

You'll probably find they'd vote in much the same pattern so the poll probably reflects the thinking of Liverpool fans on here and maybe even in general.
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Postby kazza » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:05 am

After a bad loss the majority of fans are unhappy, after a good win the majority of fans are happy because that is the nature of most fans, they are generally fickle. The others however will either support the manager regardless, or continuously attack him regardless and it is simple enough to understand. Thing is that even if we change the manager those same fans will still be complaining about the new manager (unless we win the prem in our first year which is a VERY tall order) and the positive fans will support the new manager regardless even if it is Maureen (heaven forbid). There are members on here who always choose the negative outlook and they will continue to do so as that is who they are (negative). In my opinion they are as useful as a wet tissue and as they are on the extreme part of the spectrum, they are a minority but unfortunately carry the loudest voice. It is the same for the fans on the other end of the spectrum (a minority with a loud voice) but at least they are positive and understand the spirit of the thing, ie support.
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:24 am

is it possible to be unhappy yet support the club? of course it is and its the weakest argument in the book to suggest that someone does not support any more because they see more negatives than positives. I can counter and say that people who are happy with the situation are not real fans as a real fan would want better and a real fan would push the club to provide better.

I support the club, I am sad to see the state the playing side is in, I say the playing side because our sport and our business is football, I don't buy into the excuse that issues of the pitch affect the football, that's just shifting the blame and it is something that's done by people who refuse to find fault with benitez.

Am I a negative person? not at all, however when the negatives far outweigh the positives people will focus on the negatives.

My support of the club will never waiver, my support of benitez went two years ago. does that mean I am not a supporter? if you answer yes to this question then I suggest you haven't read the post.
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Postby red_guy » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:39 am

Now there's an issue whether this guy is a real supporter and the other one's not. It is safe to say that all of us here is a true Liverpool supporter , do they have the believe in the manager or not. As Pee Wee said, a real fan would want better and a real fan would push the club to provide better. Yes , i agree with his statement. If you really care about someone or something, you only want things better for those/things you care.
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Postby bigmick » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:21 am

Coming back to Kazza'a point, if we got rid of rafa at the end of the season and brought in a Mourinho (I say "a" Mourinho because I don't believe we'd get "the" Mourinho) you might find the whole thing tips on its head. The die hard Rafa supporters will no doubt be very unconvinced that the new bloke is an improvement almost regardless of what he does, whereas the most strident anti's would in all probability give him much more of a chance than they would Rafa.

We could finish third and have me, Peewee and S@int saying it was a good effort, while most of the rest of the forum said we could have done better.

It won't happen of course because Rafa is in for the long haul. Those who have pointed out that it took seven years for Fergie to win the title, are going to find out whether Rafa can match him.
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Postby Roger Red Hat » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:35 am

bigmick wrote:It won't happen of course because Rafa is in for the long haul. Those who have pointed out that it took seven years for Fergie to win the title, are going to find out whether Rafa can match him.

Exactamundo! So we need to get behind him not against him. Parry's gone in the summer so lets see who Rafa can bring in and what changes he can make. We've had a good push this season, better than any other season before it. top 3 for most of it and still pushing in Europe. We have the best midfielder in the world and the best striker in the world and I reckon we have the best manager in the world too, he just needs to work out a way of turning draws into wins.

Write this season off?  not on your life. 7 points behind manc U. Forget saturdays dismall display and MOVE THE FCK ON!
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:39 am

best manager in the world? we haven't even got the best manager in england mate   :D

I've told you a billion times to not exaggerate     :D
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Postby The_Rock » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:03 am

bigmick wrote:It won't happen of course because Rafa is in for the long haul. Those who have pointed out that it took seven years for Fergie to win the title, are going to find out whether Rafa can match him.

I shudder at that thought....  :O     :p
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Postby Bam » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:15 am

bigmick wrote:
Bam wrote:We carry on plodding along in the league picking up whatever results we can. The goal posts however have moved IMO. For me its got nothing to do with finishing in a comfortable position and qualifying for Europe next year. Its about success and silverware and while the sun is rapidly setting on our title aspirations, we have to focus on the European cup.

By doing this it may keep Rafa in the job that little bit longer and for some odd reason I'm anxious to see if he can finally prove his doubters (myself included) wrong next year. The lads have done reasonably well in a below par league thus far and for that Rafa In my humble opinion deserves one last chance. Especially now that Parry is out of the way, my gut feeling about Parry is that he has always been a burden on the club with his lacklusture ways. With him out of the way I'm sure Rafa's job maybe easier. Just a quick disclaimer here, I dont think Parry was the instigator in the signing of Keane or players like Lucas and Babel. Blame firmly lies at the feet of Rafa as far as I'm concerned, but I dont thinks its one way traffic all the time.

I'd like a crystal ball just to see into the summer months after the transfer window, I could probably tell you from his future signings whether Rafae should be sacked even before a ball is kicked in anger next season. Alas I've personally come round to the idea of giving him a 2 year contract ..... Sorry back on topic.

Focus on Europe now as thats our best opportunity for silverware, even though we're out of the league still like to see us trounce Man. U. Skertel break Ronaldos legs, and Gerrard to smack f.uck out of G.Neville.

I'd be happy with that. Yes I'm deflated after seeing us fall short in the league, but at least we've been up there for some part of the campaign. It hasnt been totally disastrous, we're unbeaten at home albeit with some smelly draws. And have only lost twice this season, I suppose deep down in my heart of hearts I thought we'd never win the league so I'm not to deflated. Hey, its the modern day joys of being a fan of Liverpool FC.  :(

The reason why I disagree with the "give him two more years" bit is that he's had five years already, and in those five years we aren't anywhere near to be fair. Yes we challenged while everybody else was imploding, but the minute man Utd got their act together Rafa fell to pieces. It's not even as if we went head to head with them, they've gone past us like we're stood still.

Even Chelsea, who've been beaten Home and Away by us, been beaten at Home by Arsenal, and been beaten at Man Utd have changes their manager and whoosh!, they've gone past us as well. They've done it because they can beat the poorer teams much more efficiently than we can. We can avoid defeat against the best of em, but we can't win matches with enough consistency. This IMHO will never alter with Rafa in charge.

That's why I advocate a change in manager at the end of the season, I firmly believe he will never win it and every year he is now at the helm is a wasted opportunity. Fair enough post Bam, but we disagree here. I also FWIW feel absolutely certain that you will get your wish, and that he will sign a new contract.

Well Mick that is fair enough and I dont blame you TBH. But I cant help but think when a few of you told us back in the summer. You need to gain experiance and cannot expect to leapfrog Chelsea, United and Arsenal to top spot. You was pretty adament about that.

Looking at it as you said, teams need experiance in fighting for the challenge. Surely if thats the case Rafa needs to learn from this experiance to.

Granted he does come across as arrogant in his own way, he has wasted millions in the transfer market and does take a pragmatic approach towards the game.

My expectance before the season started as was yours lets not forget was to amount a title challenge. As far as I'm concerened he has doner a better job of that than Arsenal and Chelsea have thus far.

So to come as close as he has whether the league is weaker or not isnt any great concern of mine and it shouldnt be yours. I think it would be knee-jerkish to sack him mainly based on the Robbie Keane debacle. As that issue seems to of lost patiance in the man.

Ideally I'd like to give him a Kewell type contract, where as its only warrantd for twelve months. To earn himself a significant extention he has to win the league. If not its a flight back to Spain with Ryan air paying a pound a pee for the troubles.
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Postby bigmick » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:16 am

The_Rock wrote:
bigmick wrote:It won't happen of course because Rafa is in for the long haul. Those who have pointed out that it took seven years for Fergie to win the title, are going to find out whether Rafa can match him.

I shudder at that thought....  :O     :p

Well shudder away mate because it'll happen. I wonder if there will ever be a point when the managers most ardent of supporters will come round to the idea of him not being the person to win us the title?

My suspicion is that the answer to that question is no. If he proves once and for all that he'll never do it, the next fall back position will be that it was always impossible anyway as we had the Yank owners, not as much money to spend, Parry didn't move quickly enough etc.

I am convomced though that we are about to see Rafa sign a new four year contract, and that he will serve AT LEAST two years of it.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:32 am

This is where I can't and never will agree with you Mick.

I don't believe we HAVE challenged for the title yet this season. You have to be in with a chance of winning the thing with a few games to go for it to be a challenge. Or maybe we also challenged for the FA cup this season ? 

We sat comfortably at the top for a while, but once the going got tough, the tough didn't get going, they just sat back and watched as the mancs sailed effortless off into the distance. Not really my idea of a challenge that mate.

Bit like me keeping up with Seb Coe and Steve Ovett on the first lap in a 800mts race, then watching them shift gears on the second lap while I continue my trot round the track. And this is after Seb was left at the start and Steve had to change his shoes half way through the race.
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Postby Roger Red Hat » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:44 am

lets hope he does sign a 4 year deal cos a change of manager could have a backward effect on us big time.

Rafa Benitez - keep the faith with him folks.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:50 am

Or it could take us that extra step we need mate.

Maybe we should just sit back and do nothing while the mancs talk about doing the QUINTUPLE :(
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Postby NANNY RED » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:55 am

This is actualy a good read by Ollie Kaye
its depressing an all though

I didnt know where to stick it so i shoved it in here

Liverpool Will Never Embrace Future with One Foot in Past
Oliver Kay - The Times 02/03/2009

Life at Anfield was quiet. A few people might mill around during the week, trying to spot a star or snatch an autograph, but it was only on match days that any real crowd gathered. Go to Old Trafford any day of the week and you will see . . . crowds gathering, buying tickets, drifting around the souvenir shop, queuing for the museum or simply gawping at the stadium. Old Trafford is supermarket football.”

The above paragraph could easily have been written last week, but in fact it was written 15 years ago in Stephen F. Kelly’s biography of Graeme Souness. Kelly went on to portray Manchester United as a corporate monster and Liverpool as a cosy corner shop, but he suggested that things were changing, that the Merseyside club were evolving into “a multimillion-pound business staffed by well-paid executives in Marks & Spencer suits and where success is imperative on and off the field”. How did that go, then?

In one sense it sounds like a bygone age and in another it feels as if nothing has changed. As United close in on Liverpool’s proud record of 18 league titles — it was 18-7 when the Premier League was launched in 1992 — the instinct among the Merseyside club’s supporters may be to bemoan the disharmony in the boardroom, Rafael Benítez’s contract saga, injuries to Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard or even just to blame Lucas Leiva, but the reality is that Liverpool are just about punching their weight on the pitch while falling dramatically short in all other departments.

On the pitch, Liverpool have a team capable of beating Real Madrid away from home in the Champions League. As a club, though, they are so dogged by infighting and inertia that it is difficult to see what happens next.

Everywhere you look, it is a collision of cultures, the old guard at odds with the new — with Rick Parry, the chief executive, ousted and David Moores, the former chairman, contemplating stepping down from his honorary role as life president — and even the new at odds with the new. Parry’s departure has been portrayed as a move towards unity and, in the view of Tom Hicks, the co-owner, towards dynamism, but, barring a change of ownership or an enormous injection of cash, the underlying problems will remain.

Every home match at Anfield generates about £1.5 million, meaning that their match-day revenue over an average season is likely to be about £37.5 million. United, their stadium full to its 76,000 capacity and their corporate lounges heaving every week, earn more than £3 million every time they play at Old Trafford. Last season their match-day revenue topped £100 million. It is one reason why their accounts for the financial year ending June 30, 2008, will see a turnover in excess of £300 million, the largest recorded by a British club.

Liverpool simply cannot compete with that and, while a lack of dynamism or commercial vision has been a factor in their efforts to break away from the corner-shop mentality, it is not the biggest one. Ultimately it comes down to location, location, location and, whereas Old Trafford always had potential for expansion Anfield, hemmed between rows of Victorian terraces, remains every bit the corner shop.

Much of the blame for that has been laid at Parry’s door, not least by Hicks, who has described the chief executive’s tenure as “disastrous”. As a global brand, Liverpool are woefully underdeveloped — incredibly, they were the last Premier League club to have their own website and did not even have a commercial director until the appointment of Ian Ayre in 2007 — but the shortfall in commercial revenue (£41 million in the 2006-07 campaign, against United’s £56 million) does not begin to reflect match days.

Parry cannot be accused of hiding from that fact. Almost as soon as he had taken office, he identified the need to relocate. But all their efforts over the past decade have been hampered by planning issues, a lack of funding, rising construction costs and now the global economic climate. Moores sold the club to Hicks and George Gillett Jr on the premise that they would provide the money to deliver the new stadium while supplying Benítez with funds to strengthen his squad. Instead they have delivered discord and wrangling, not just with Parry and Benítez but with each other.

It is an utter mess, with Gillett desperate to sell his stake but seemingly intent on being obstructive for as long as he struggles to find a buyer. It is why the feeling persists that Benítez has made Liverpool about as competitive as they can expect to be in the Premier League while somehow making them one of the most feared teams in Europe. That will not prevent the inevitable gnashing of teeth on Merseyside when United draw level with their total of 18 league titles in May. But, for as long as Liverpool remain at such a competitive disadvantage, it cannot be classed as underachievement.

If Parry could turn the clock back to 2007, he would not allow Hicks and Gillett anywhere near the place. If he could turn it back ten years, he might approve a full-scale redevelopment of Anfield. As it is, he will leave the club in May much as he found it and as Moores found it when he took over as chairman in 1991 — in need of investment, in need of direction and, above all, in need of the nineteenth league title that continues not just to elude them, but to pass them by completely.
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Postby kazza » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:00 pm

bigmick wrote:Coming back to Kazza'a point, if we got rid of rafa at the end of the season and brought in a Mourinho (I say "a" Mourinho because I don't believe we'd get "the" Mourinho) you might find the whole thing tips on its head. The die hard Rafa supporters will no doubt be very unconvinced that the new bloke is an improvement almost regardless of what he does, whereas the most strident anti's would in all probability give him much more of a chance than they would Rafa.

We could finish third and have me, Peewee and S@int saying it was a good effort, while most of the rest of the forum said we could have done better.

It won't happen of course because Rafa is in for the long haul. Those who have pointed out that it took seven years for Fergie to win the title, are going to find out whether Rafa can match him.

I supported Houllier until he was gone even though that final year was a test of my patience. I have nowhere near the dissatisfaction with Raffa I had with Houllier.

Mick because you are convinced that Raffa will not win us the title does not make it so. I think Utd are a great team and it will take a super effort to dethrone them. For me Raffa is our best chance. If and when he re-signs, he should get the benefit of the doubt in regards to the Parry thing. Staying on his case will not help the team to win but support might.

For some (and I am not saying Mick), criticism comes easier than praise.
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