Progress Under Rafa - Analysis and Opinion

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Effes » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:01 pm

GYBS wrote:Think a lot of the problems or should i say stick rafa is getting is because of the league form and whats happening yearly there .  i agree totally about the cl, yeah the league is the one we want - everyone wants but i would also love to win the cl - a lot of players and managers see it as the big one - its why a lot of big players go to certain clubs - because of CL - just think if spurs where in the CL they prob would have etoo playing for them right now. the league will always remain the priority but the cl is pretty much right behind it in my eyes . We are a force in europe there is no doubt about that - we prove it on a yearly basis against the best in europe - every year we beat one of the giants - the inters , milans, barces , madrids etc and the report is right - every time we do win it is because the other team where poor on the night - we have even seen it here on the forum with people saying the same thing - yet only on the odd occasion does someone stand up and stay - "you know what well done liverpool - well deserved both players and managers " it would be nice to see and hear a bit of credit from both the media and some of our own fans .

we have progressed to become one of the best in the cl because of our managers in the main and he deserves the credit for that . its the league that some have the benchmark - he does improve every year - for some its not quick enough and for some there is no improvement and for some when this is improvement its because other teams are poor . Look at the starting line up from rafas first game to the team he has now - who would get into the current team from that ? Finnan maybe and maybe didi (but would still pick masher) and maybe garcia on the bench - but who else ? not many in my eyes . So yes we have improved - massively in europe and slowly in the prem .

Well in GYBS mate, I knew you could do it.
Now, best go and take a lie down  :D  - just kidding.

Not sure whether the SQUAD has progressed though, the first 11 has.
I think people see the placings Rafa has achieved - 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th - and see that as not being progression.
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Postby account deleted by request » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:16 pm

Dudek - Reina = No contest Reina by a mile
Finnan - Arbeloa = Close but no cigar Finnan takes it just
Riise - Aurelio = Draw ?
Hyypia - Skrtel = Hyypia - no contest Hyypia
Carra - Carra = Draw
Kewell - Riera = Kewell
Hamann - Masch = Masch (just)
Alonso - Alonso = Draw
Gerrard - Gerrard = Draw
Cisse - Torres = No contest Torres
Garcia - Kuyt/Bennayoun = Garcia

Thats how I would see it. 2 very big improvements in Reina and Torres the rest either too close to call.  marginal improvements, or loss.
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Postby JC_81 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:23 pm

Good thread opener Effes, very well laid out post.

For me, there's no question that we have progressed under Benitez, none at all.  We are a far better organised outfit and far harder to beat now than the team Houllier left behind.  Your stats pretty much back that up.

Stats don't always tell the whole story of course.  The vast majority would probably agree, without the need for stats, that we are a better team now than when Benitez took over.

The real question however, is whether after 5 seasons and a net spend topped only by Chelea (I think) in that time, have we made enough progress?  That however is for another thread.
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Postby Effes » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:24 pm

s@int wrote:Dudek - Reina = No contest Reina by a mile
Finnan - Arbeloa = Close but no cigar Finnan takes it just
Riise - Aurelio = Draw ?
Hyypia - Skrtel = Hyypia - no contest Hyypia
Carra - Carra = Draw
Kewell - Riera = Kewell
Hamann - Masch = Masch (just)
Alonso - Alonso = Draw
Gerrard - Gerrard = Draw
Cisse - Torres = No contest Torres
Garcia - Kuyt/Bennayoun = Garcia

Thats how I would see it. 2 very big improvements in Reina and Torres the rest either too close to call.  marginal improvements, or loss.

I cant argue with that s@int - though I was never a Garcia fan, he wasted possession too much, so he doesn't win that for me.

However - the current team would do the 2004/5 team, just.

So, it opens the debate. £98M NET spend in 4 seasons, yet no MAJOR improvement to the 1st eleven?

Hmm, interesting.
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Postby Effes » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:28 pm

john craig wrote:Stats don't always tell the whole story of course.  The vast majority would probably agree, without the need for stats, that we are a better team now than when Benitez took over.

The real question however, is whether after 5 seasons and a net spend topped only by Chelea (I think) in that time, have we made enough progress?  That however is for another thread.

Well, to be honest mate, it needed the stats for me to be convinced we'd made "progress". I just looked at the league positions, and even the points behind
leaders didnt have me convinced. I thought it fluctuated.

Your point about the net spend is something that irks the people critical of Rafa. I think it's OK to discuss here as it
falls into the progression topic.
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Postby Scottbot » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:28 pm

Another good read here - Taken from the Times

"Can We Play You Every Week"

We've done it again.

The side that splutters to a home draw with Manchester City one day, then goes out and comfortably beats an in form Real Madrid on their own turf. Welcome to the wonderful and majestic world of Rafael Benitez and Liverpool Football Club.

It defies logic that a side incapable of beating Stoke and Wigan on their own turf in recent weeks, can travel to the Bernabeu and beat Real Madrid without having to really break sweat; we made it look easy. That's football.

For me, I've always believed that Rafael Benitez is too clever and tactical for his own good. In Europe, against the better sides on the continent, it works. He's up against a side of quality, and a manager that wants to play football. It's a game of chess and tactics are massively important for European competition. It's not just a case of "go out and attack them" and hope the best teams win. Do that and you'll be exposed and punished.

You can't afford to go to Real Madrid, Barcelona and Inter Milan and attack them without regard. Yet we've been to all three of those places in the past three seasons and beat them all. We must be doing something right.

But why can we not do it domestically?

I've thought for years that Benitez pays the lesser teams far too much respect. So while it pays to approach a game like Real Madrid away with a military like plan, it doesn't seem to work when going to the likes of Stoke and Wigan. They are set up to defend and stifle our attacking options, just as we were set up to envoke the same restrictions on the Real Madrid side last night.

Benitez tries to play chess with the likes of Steve Bruce, when they just not good enough or tactically minded enough to make it worth while. They are the teams we should just be going out and attacking, with less regard for military movements and tactical plays. Attack them and the better side will win the vast majority of the time. That's the criticism of the manager I had after the Wigan game last month; it's that approach that needs to change for me if we are to win the league.

If we could play the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona every week, we'd already be Champions.

Or are we doing it domestically? Are we dismissing the progress we've made domestically on the basis that we're not nailed for the league title this season, when in fact we're getting better each season, but having the bar continually raised by the likes of Man United putting together winning runs like they have in recent months?

The likes of Ranieri, Ferguson and Wenger spent years building the foundations for their cluba, so much so that they are now able to add top quality players to those foundations in search of success. Mourinho walked into Chelsea to take over a side that finished 2nd last season, and given an open cheque book to deliver the goods. Ferguson is able to go out and spend the £30m's on Berbatov and Rooney, as the foundations of his side had been laid years previously.

Benitez is just coming to the end of the foundation building process for me, yet is expected to deliver the title or else. We all become frustrated with disappointing results, but sometimes we need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture and what we're actually trying to achieve, and the circumstances around that; myself included.

Time and time again we're underestimated on the European front. Written off as the outsiders of the 4 English sides in the betting every year, and dismissed as a lucky cup side by the nation's media and rival fans. Yet we're reached 3 semi finals in 4 years, twice qualifying for the final and winning it once. This year we're yet again in a really strong position to reach the quarter finals, despite having to prepare for the game amidst a backdrop of scandalous uncertainty around the future of our manager.

A man that came to a club struggling to make the top 4 each season to qualify for the Champions League, has achieved what I have listed above, and as Joe Cole said last night, making us the team that nobody wants to play.

So from being in a similar position Aston Villa find themselves in right now, in hoping to make the top 4, we're are one of the most feared teams in Europe with the best record in the competition of anyone since the arrival of Benitez to the club. Yet the cowboy owners of our club, and some sections of the fan base, seem to think that isn't good enough.  Reality checks needed.

We are all disappointed with the recent results in the league, me included. I was furious after the Wigan game, and justifiably so. I still stand by my criticisms after that game, and the decisions made that night do reflect why we've faded instead of kicking on  once sitting top of the league at the turn of the year. But, with all the behind the scenes chaos, the fact the manager has been able to function and continue to keep us up there in the league is a miracle in itself.

How many sides have become champions with the internal politics of the club in a bigger mess than Gary Neville's face? None.

Stability is key; and the current financial markets are about the only thing less stable than our club at the minute.

The mere suggestion that we were about to lose our manager when sat 2nd in the league and playing Real Madrid in the European Cup is beyond belief.  Or maybe it's not when you look at Parry, Hicks and Gillett sat in the drivers seat of our club; all fighting for the steering wheel with one foot each on the pedals. Nobody has any idea where we're going or what the other is about to do.

Please, all of you, get out of our club and leave the best manager we've had in decades get on with his job.

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Postby GYBS » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:30 pm

Effes wrote:
GYBS wrote:Think a lot of the problems or should i say stick rafa is getting is because of the league form and whats happening yearly there .  i agree totally about the cl, yeah the league is the one we want - everyone wants but i would also love to win the cl - a lot of players and managers see it as the big one - its why a lot of big players go to certain clubs - because of CL - just think if spurs where in the CL they prob would have etoo playing for them right now. the league will always remain the priority but the cl is pretty much right behind it in my eyes . We are a force in europe there is no doubt about that - we prove it on a yearly basis against the best in europe - every year we beat one of the giants - the inters , milans, barces , madrids etc and the report is right - every time we do win it is because the other team where poor on the night - we have even seen it here on the forum with people saying the same thing - yet only on the odd occasion does someone stand up and stay - "you know what well done liverpool - well deserved both players and managers " it would be nice to see and hear a bit of credit from both the media and some of our own fans .

we have progressed to become one of the best in the cl because of our managers in the main and he deserves the credit for that . its the league that some have the benchmark - he does improve every year - for some its not quick enough and for some there is no improvement and for some when this is improvement its because other teams are poor . Look at the starting line up from rafas first game to the team he has now - who would get into the current team from that ? Finnan maybe and maybe didi (but would still pick masher) and maybe garcia on the bench - but who else ? not many in my eyes . So yes we have improved - massively in europe and slowly in the prem .

Well in GYBS mate, I knew you could do it.
Now, best go and take a lie down  :D  - just kidding.

Not sure whether the SQUAD has progressed though, the first 11 has.
I think people see the placings Rafa has achieved - 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th - and see that as not being progression.

have a look on the firstpage - you will see another long psot from me - must be a record  :buttrock
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Postby Effes » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:35 pm

Good read that Scott.

Im just glad Ive now jumped into the "Stay" camp in Dundalk's Thread.

RUNAROUND NOOOOWWWW! :D

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Postby account deleted by request » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:46 pm

A man that came to a club struggling to make the top 4 each season to qualify for the Champions League


Again a bit of an exaggeration of how "bad" we were
94/5 - 4
95/6 - 3
96/7 - 4
97/8 -3
98/9 -7
99/00 - 4
00/01 - 3
01/02 -2
02/03 -5
03/04 -4

So in only 2 years out of 10 did we finish less than 4th before Rafa

04/05 - 5
05/06 -3
06/07 -3
07/08-4
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Postby JC_81 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:46 pm

s@int wrote:Dudek - Reina = No contest Reina by a mile
Finnan - Arbeloa = Close but no cigar Finnan takes it just
Riise - Aurelio = Draw ?
Hyypia - Skrtel = Hyypia - no contest Hyypia
Carra - Carra = Draw
Kewell - Riera = Kewell
Hamann - Masch = Masch (just)
Alonso - Alonso = Draw
Gerrard - Gerrard = Draw
Cisse - Torres = No contest Torres
Garcia - Kuyt/Bennayoun = Garcia

Thats how I would see it. 2 very big improvements in Reina and Torres the rest either too close to call.  marginal improvements, or loss.

Would agree for the most part on that assessment s@int, but that comparison doesn't give any credit to Benitez for what was a really important part of his revolution - the transition from Houllier's team to his team of 2004/2005.

Garcia made a huge difference to our team and was instrumental in our success in Europe for a few seasons.  Alonso made a massive difference to our midfield in his first season, and Carra-Carra=draw is controversial imo.  Benitez is the man who had the wit to convert a fairly average but commited full back/utility man into one of the best centre halves in the Champions League for a couple of years.

He also turned Finnan around as a player.  Finnan is a guy who if I'm honest was absolute sh.ite when he first signed, couldn't settle at all.  Under Benitez's influence and in a more organised defensive unit he flourished and became a good consistent player.

So the comparison should be more like this (Houllier's team v today's team) to give Benitez full credit for improving the team he inherited:

Dudek - Reina - obviously Reina
Finnan (under Houllier) - Arbeloa - Arbeloa
Hyypia - Skrtel/Agger - Hyypia
Biscan/Diao/Henchoz - Carra - Carra
Carra/Traore - Aurelio - Aurelio

Diouf - Kuyt - Kuyt
Hamman - Alonso - Alonso
Gerrard - Mascherano - Gerrard
Riise/Cheyrou/Heskey (rememeber he played out there) - Riera - Riera (I'm not counting Kewell here, he didn't play often enough under either manager)

Heskey/Diouf/Baros - Gerrard - Gerrard
Owen - Torres - Torres


I think our team now is a hell of a lot better, player for player and as a unit than the one Benitez inherited.  Remember progress didn't just start after Rafa's first season!
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Postby Effes » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:51 pm

s@int wrote:
A man that came to a club struggling to make the top 4 each season to qualify for the Champions League


Again a bit of an exaggeration of how "bad" we were
94/5 - 4
95/6 - 3
96/7 - 4
97/8 -3
98/9 -7
99/00 - 4
00/01 - 3
01/02 -2
02/03 -5
03/04 -4

So in only 2 years out of 10 did we finish less than 4th before Rafa

04/05 - 5
05/06 -3
06/07 -3
07/08-4

True s@int - I guess most journalists put their own slant on things. But I agree with the slant anyway  :D
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Postby Effes » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:54 pm

john craig wrote:He also turned Finnan around as a player.  Finnan is a guy who if I'm honest was absolute sh.ite when he first signed, couldn't settle at all.  Under Benitez's influence and in a more organised defensive unit he flourished and became a good consistent player.

Good point John.

So I guess the comparison could be:

Finnan (under Houllier) - Finnan (under Rafa) - Finnan (under Rafa)

Who then was deemed "past it" - Arbeloa.

It has always been a query of mine - did Finnan really show any signs that he was underperforming? I didn't see it.
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Postby account deleted by request » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:56 pm

john craig wrote:
s@int wrote:Dudek - Reina = No contest Reina by a mile
Finnan - Arbeloa = Close but no cigar Finnan takes it just
Riise - Aurelio = Draw ?
Hyypia - Skrtel = Hyypia - no contest Hyypia
Carra - Carra = Draw
Kewell - Riera = Kewell
Hamann - Masch = Masch (just)
Alonso - Alonso = Draw
Gerrard - Gerrard = Draw
Cisse - Torres = No contest Torres
Garcia - Kuyt/Bennayoun = Garcia

Thats how I would see it. 2 very big improvements in Reina and Torres the rest either too close to call.  marginal improvements, or loss.

Would agree for the most part on that assessment s@int, but that comparison doesn't give any credit to Benitez for what was a really important part of his revolution - the transition from Houllier's team to his team of 2004/2005.

Garcia made a huge difference to our team and was instrumental in our success in Europe for a few seasons.  Alonso made a massive difference to our midfield in his first season, and Carra-Carra=draw is controversial imo.  Benitez is the man who had the wit to convert a fairly average but commited full back/utility man into one of the best centre halves in the Champions League for a couple of years.

He also turned Finnan around as a player.  Finnan is a guy who if I'm honest was absolute sh.ite when he first signed, couldn't settle at all.  Under Benitez's influence and in a more organised defensive unit he flourished and became a good consistent player.

So the comparison should be more like this (Houllier's team v today's team) to give Benitez full credit for improving the team he inherited:

Dudek - Reina - obviously Reina
Finnan (under Houllier) - Arbeloa - Arbeloa
Hyypia - Skrtel/Agger - Hyypia
Biscan/Diao/Henchoz - Carra - Carra
Carra/Traore - Aurelio - Aurelio

Diouf - Kuyt - Kuyt
Hamman - Alonso - Alonso
Gerrard - Mascherano - Gerrard
Riise/Cheyrou/Heskey (rememeber he played out there) - Riera - Riera (I'm not counting Kewell here, he didn't play often enough under either manager)

Heskey/Diouf/Baros - Gerrard - Gerrard
Owen - Torres - Torres


I think our team now is a hell of a lot better, player for player and as a unit than the one Benitez inherited.  Remember progress didn't just start after Rafa's first season!

I was replying to GYBS'S original point mate about the progress from Rafa's first games  not comparing Rafa's team with Houlliers.

Stick Torres in the team from 2004/5 and which team would you put your money on ?
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:00 am

Effes wrote:
john craig wrote:He also turned Finnan around as a player.  Finnan is a guy who if I'm honest was absolute sh.ite when he first signed, couldn't settle at all.  Under Benitez's influence and in a more organised defensive unit he flourished and became a good consistent player.

Good point John.

So I guess the comparison could be:

Finnan (under Houllier) - Finnan (under Rafa) - Finnan (under Rafa)

Who then was deemed "past it" - Arbeloa.

It has always been a query of mine - did Finnan really show any signs that he was underperforming? I didn't see it.

I'd agree.  I wouldn't have let Finnan go.  I'm sure Benitez offered him to Villa as part of the Gareth Barry offer though.  That wasn't accepted and Finnan was pi.ssed off at that because he was happy to stay.  He felt unwanted.  Benitez had already agreed to bring in Degen and had Arbeloa, Finnan was 31, so he thought 2 million was good business for an ageing player who was unhappy.  That's my take on it, but we'll never know the real story.
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:02 am

s@int wrote:I was replying to GYBS'S original point mate about the progress from Rafa's first games  not comparing Rafa's team with Houlliers.

Stick Torres in the team from 2004/5 and which team would you put your money on ?

Apologies - missed that bit :blush:

Torres in 2004/2005 was only 19, he was too inconsistent back then :laugh:
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